On the matters of Iraqi Ethnicity, Identity, Culture, and everything in between - Page 4

SumerianKing · February 29th, 2012, 11:27 PM

If this mixing is so high in this day and age I cant think how high it would of been 1800 years ago! when these things where not documented or even cared about!

SumerianKing · April 12th, 2012, 08:58 PM

Some amazing information about marsh "Arabs" more to come...

Recent expansions shape the present Marsh Arab Y-chromosome landscape

When the two J1-M267 sub-clades, J1-M267* and J1-Page08 are considered (Figure 6), differential frequency trends emerge. The less represented J1-M267* primarily diffuses towards North East Mesopotamia and shows its highest incidence in the Assyrians of northern Iraq, and Turkey. By contrast, J1-Page08 accounts for the great majority of the J1 distribution in South Western Mesopotamia, reaching its highest value (74.1%) in the marsh area. By considering the STR haplotypes associated with the two branches, the highest values of variance are localized in northern Mesopotamia (North Iraq/South East Turkey) (Figure 6, Additional files 7, 8 and 9). For the J1-Page08 lineage, high variance values were also observed in Ethiopia, Oman and South Eastern Italy (Table 2). Although present data are not adequate to define the homeland of the J1-Page08 sub-clade, some useful information can be obtained from the haplotype network analysis (Figure 4). Thus, the pheripheric position of the Ethiopian and South Eastern Italian (European) haplotypes suggests that the high values of variance registered in these regions likely reflect the stratification of different migratory events, some of which occurred before the expansion and diffusion of the lineage outside the Middle Eastern area. As previously reported [31,41], also the value of variance in the Omani is affected by the concomitant presence of both pheripheric and centrally expanded haplotypes. In this context, the low variance (0.118) observed in the Marsh Arabs underlines a recent expansion involving few haplotypes, all of which occupying a central position in the J1-Page08 network (Figure 4). In the less frequent J1-M267* clade, only marginally affected by events of expansion, Marsh Arabs shared haplotypes with other Iraqi and Assyrian samples, supporting a common local background (Figure 4).

SumerianKing · April 12th, 2012, 09:01 PM

The analyses carried out on the mtDNA and Y chromosome of the Iraqi Marsh Arabs, a population living in the Tigris-Euphrates marshlands, have shown: (i) a prevalent autochthonous Middle Eastern component both in male and female gene pools; (ii) weak South-West Asian and African heritages, more evident for mtDNA; (iii) a higher male than female homogeneity, mainly determined by the co-occurrence of socio-cultural and genetic factors; (iv) a genetic stratification not only ascribable to recent events. The last point is well illustrated by Y-chromosome data where the less represented J1-M267* lineage indicates Northern Mesopotamia contributions, whereas the most frequent J1-Page08 branch reveals a local recent expansion about 4,000 years ago (Table 2). Although the Y-chromosome age estimates deserve caution, particularly when samples are small and standard errors large, it is interesting to note that these estimates overlap the City State period which characterised Southern Mesopotamia, and is testified to by numerous ancient Sumerian cities (Lagash, Ur, Uruk, Eridu and Larsa).

In conclusion, our data show that the modern Marsh Arabs of Iraq harbour mtDNAs and Y chromosomes that are predominantly of Middle Eastern origin. Therefore, certain cultural features of the area such as water buffalo breeding and rice farming, which were most likely introduced from the Indian sub-continent, only marginally affected the gene pool of the autochthonous people of the region. Moreover, a Middle Eastern ancestral origin of the modern population of the marshes of southern Iraq implies that, if the Marsh Arabs are descendants of the ancient Sumerians, also Sumerians were not of Indian or Southern Asian ancestry.

FromBaghdadWithLove · April 13th, 2012, 10:29 AM

bro walla that is spam ^

dincheb.

Ali - Iraq · April 13th, 2012, 12:34 PM

rofl

SumerianKing · April 13th, 2012, 12:44 PM

Lol I know you only said that because its full of language you find confusing. Shged mkhabal why dont you read it like a clever young girls and extract the important information.

SumerianKing · June 14th, 2012, 11:28 PM

We kind of know, it cant be from the north, which is what you claim. Because when you get a grasp of the concept of the gradual transitional changes throughout mesopotamian history, it wont make sence. influence interexchanged between akkadians and sumerians, when the akkadians invaded them which the invention of the first empire/army. it is only after they laid their influence into babylon and other area, eg. Kish. Then over a thousand years did the Sargon of Akkad bring the land of assur and the assyrian empire to its might. Infact the north of iraq was mostly historically known for non semites
, eg. The gutians and the hurrians. (which are mostly todays kurds)

Al-Hashimi · June 14th, 2012, 11:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SumerianKing

We kind of know, it cant be from the north, which is what you claim. Because when you get a grasp of the concept of the gradual transitional changes throughout mesopotamian history, it wont make sence. influence interexchanged between akkadians and sumerians, when the akkadians invaded them which the invention of the first empire/army. it is only after they laid their influence into babylon and other area, eg. Kish. Then over a thousand years did the Sargon of Akkad bring the land of assur and the assyrian empire to its might. Infact the north of iraq was mostly historically known for non semites
, eg. The gutians and the hurrians. (which are mostly todays kurds)

Well, I think you are confusing a major issue here. I was speaking about the Haplogroup J (which 80 percent of all Iraqis and most Semetic peoples - including Arabs share) not the movement of the Semetic langauge or people (who if we are to believe current day Semetic people by far mostly come from the Haplogroup J (J1, J2) which originated in either Northern Iraq or Anatolia and then moved southwards)

All we know until now is that the first known Semetic people and Semetic language was Akkadian and they were found in modern day Iraq not Saudi Arabia or Yemen. And that was way before the word Arab came into existence - which not surprisingly again first reappeared in modern day Iraq (Assyria) 2800 years ago to describe the Nomads living in and around Assyria.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...3/figure/fig2/

That's all.

SumerianKing · June 15th, 2012, 12:07 AM

I understand your opinion, but its illogical and does not go with the established knowledge today.
Also you can never say that 80% of iraqs have this haplogroup, where is this number comming from? Honestly you think that this number is logical? Has every iraqi been geneticaly tested, with also mitochodrial dna testing?
Also these groups j2 or whatever exist, so do hundereds of other groups within our genetic makeup, what you fail to include is the percentage of that group within the amount of population of subjects that where geneticaly tested!! I have a link of a research paper by Al Zahary on this thread, check it out and youl see what I mean.

Al-Hashimi · June 15th, 2012, 12:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SumerianKing

I understand your opinion, but its illogical and does not go with the established knowledge today.
Also you can never say that 80% of iraqs have this haplogroup, where is this number comming from? Honestly you think that this number is logical? Has every iraqi been geneticaly tested, with also mitochodrial dna testing?
Also these groups j2 or whatever exist, so do hundereds of other groups within our genetic makeup, what you fail to include is the percentage of that group within the amount of population of subjects that where geneticaly tested!! I have a link of a research paper by Al Zahary on this thread, check it out and youl see what I mean.

It's about 80 percent (among Iraqi Arabs). That's the latest data I have seen.

No of course not all Iraqis have been tested but that's not necessary to say that it's highly probable that the majority will belong to the Haplogroup J. Do you know how statistics work?

We are talking about Y-DNA not mitochodiral DNA. At least that what I am talking about since your ethnicity do not pass from mother to son apart from among Jews I think.

You do know that J1 and J2 are related and that J2 is very common in the Arabian Peninsula as well?

You also know that if we all go into to many details there will be 1000 of different groups of Arabs? The point is that they all belong to the same major group (Arabs) and then Semetic people.

I mean otherwise we can conclude that there are no ethnicities and that we are all related (which we are) but that's not the point here.

We are interested in examining the recent human history and the cultures we as Arabs/Semetics/Iraqis are part of. And that's the Semetic/Arab culture not the Turkic or Mongolid culture or Indo-European culture.

I hope you get what I mean here.

FromBaghdadWithLove · June 15th, 2012, 01:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FromBaghdadWithLove

bro walla that is spam ^

dincheb.

بارك الله بيك اخني

الجماعة مو مال اخترام .. مجموعة زعاطيط

***BigDreamer*** · June 15th, 2012, 04:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FromBaghdadWithLove

بارك الله بيك اخني

الجماعة مو مال اخترام .. مجموعة زعاطيط

bro, where did you go.. we missed you ..

SumerianKing · June 15th, 2012, 09:19 AM

Yeh I know what u mean hashimi. Anyway its a long subject that requires tons of research.

Sinjar · June 15th, 2012, 01:13 PM

FBWL stop this. We are not on the streets. Have some dignity.

FromBaghdadWithLove · June 15th, 2012, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sinjar

FBWL stop this. We are not on the streets. Have some dignity.

ليش احنة عدنة شوارع امبلطة بالناصرية..؟

SumerianKing · July 14th, 2012, 11:05 PM

hashimi I will paypal you £100 if you post evidence that kurds are not original inhabitants of the zagros mountains, and nearby areas of iraq.

Al-Hashimi · July 14th, 2012, 11:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SumerianKing

hashimi I will paypal you £100 if you post evidence that kurds are not original inhabitants of the zagros mountains, and nearby areas of iraq.

Not interested. First you can proof to me that Kurds, not even being a homogenous group, are native to Northern Iraq. Nobody agrees with you other than Kurdish propaganda machines. Seriously you are basically saying that Indo-Iranian people like Kurds are native to an region that is not their original homeland? Their original homeland is Central Asia. Are you a Kurd or part Kurd yourself by any chance because I only hear Kurds say such things, no others, be it experts on genetics, linguistics or experts on the related fields etc.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

"Indo-Iranians and their expansion are strongly associated with the Proto-Indo-European invention of the chariot. It is assumed that this expansion went into from the Proto-Indo-European homeland north of the Caspian sea south to the Caucasus, Central Asia, the Iranian plateau, and Northern India. They also expanded into Mesopotamia and Syria and introduced the horse and chariot culture to this part of the world. Sumerian texts from EDIIIb Girsu (2500-2350 BC) already mention the 'chariot' (gigir) and Ur III texts (2150-2000 BC) mention the horse (anshe-zi-zi)."

"The Assyrian people,[23] most commonly known as Assyrians and other later names, such as: Ashuriyun, Assouri, Chaldean Catholics, Syriacs, Chaldo-Assyrians (see names of Syriac Christians), are a distinct ethnic group whose origins lie in ancient Mesopotamia. They are Eastern Aramaic speaking Semites who trace their ancestry back to the Sumero-Akkadian civilisation that emerged in Mesopotamia circa 4000- 3500 BC, and in particular to the northern region of the Akkadian lands, which would become known as Assyria by the 24th Century BC."

As seen the Assyrian presence in Northern Iraq predates the Indo-Iranian presence by 1500 years.

Nor do genetics, spread of the Indo-Iranian languages, ancient burials, culture etc. support such an claim.

Central Asia/Euroasian Steppe is the original homeland of Indo-Iranian people (Kurds included etc.) not the Middle East:

Map of the Sintashta-Petrovka culture (red), its expansion into the Andronovo culture (orange) during the 2nd millennium BC, showing the overlap with the BMAC (chartreuse green) in the south. The location of the earliest chariots is shown in magenta.

Read this carefully.

Also, most Kurds have typical Iranic haplogroup Y-DNA with further strengthens the widely accepted theory of Kurds being an Indo-Iranian people.

SumerianKing · July 14th, 2012, 11:27 PM

WIKIPEDIA ARGHH im not going to bother with you. and none of the above justifies your claims. and no im not, im not one of those people who only accepts what they want to hear. i read many books on iraqi history, and most importantly, i reflect upon it. i dont read wikipedia as my primary source. you just exposed yourself of where your development of knowledge comes from. OH GOD OUR GENERATION IS DOOOOOMED!

Al-Hashimi · July 14th, 2012, 11:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SumerianKing

WIKIPEDIA ARGHH im not going to bother with you. and none of the above justifies your claims. and no im not, im not one of those people who only accepts what they want to hear. i read many books on iraqi history, and most importantly, i reflect upon it. i dont read wikipedia as my primary source. you just exposed yourself of where your development of knowledge comes from. OH GOD OUR GENERATION IS DOOOOOMED!

There are references to those Wikipedia sentences from several sources. Check them out. And please post your own information, Kurdish national sites are banned since I have been reading their propaganda and know it very well.

Anyway proof that those sentences I posted are false. Which part of them are false? Care to explain it?

You are basically claiming that Indo-Iranians such as Kurds are native to the Middle East which have no truth on earth. The Indo-Iranian historians are saying that themselves. Sure, Kurds MIGHT have mixed with local inhabitants in Northern Iraq but that those not make them native to the territory like the Assyrians are native to Iraq.

I have read several books on Iraqi history as well and unlike you I would never make absurd claims such as "Iraqis are not Semetic people or don't have Arab blood" etc.

Most of all I have read several books on genetics and I would claim (without knowing it obviously) that my knowledge on that field is greater than anyone else on the Iraqi forum. At least I have not seen signs of that not being the case. You need to take a look at genetics (which is the best evidence) and see whether Kurds are Indo-Iranaians or not. And a short answer is yes. And also, yes, they are mixed like every ethnic group on earth bar a few isolated and small groups.

SumerianKing · July 14th, 2012, 11:38 PM

when did i say iraqis are not semitic people and dont have semitic blood? wtfffare you rasheeds brother?
And no i did not say or claim that the indo europeans are native to iraq. just because their language is, doesnt mean the iraqi kurds are!! i bet you know nothing about the hurrians or gutians, oh its ok wikiedia is a click away :/

sorry bro, i cant go on any longer, i cant take u serious no more

and i mean no offence habibi.

February 29th, 2012, 11:27 PM	#61
SumerianKing Registered User Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: London Posts: 3,581 Likes (Received): 234	If this mixing is so high in this day and age I cant think how high it would of been 1800 years ago! when these things where not documented or even cared about! __________________ Where are you? Here. What time is it? Now. What are you? This moment.

April 12th, 2012, 08:58 PM	#62
SumerianKing Registered User Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: London Posts: 3,581 Likes (Received): 234	Some amazing information about marsh "Arabs" more to come... Recent expansions shape the present Marsh Arab Y-chromosome landscape When the two J1-M267 sub-clades, J1-M267* and J1-Page08 are considered (Figure 6), differential frequency trends emerge. The less represented J1-M267* primarily diffuses towards North East Mesopotamia and shows its highest incidence in the Assyrians of northern Iraq, and Turkey. By contrast, J1-Page08 accounts for the great majority of the J1 distribution in South Western Mesopotamia, reaching its highest value (74.1%) in the marsh area. By considering the STR haplotypes associated with the two branches, the highest values of variance are localized in northern Mesopotamia (North Iraq/South East Turkey) (Figure 6, Additional files 7, 8 and 9). For the J1-Page08 lineage, high variance values were also observed in Ethiopia, Oman and South Eastern Italy (Table 2). Although present data are not adequate to define the homeland of the J1-Page08 sub-clade, some useful information can be obtained from the haplotype network analysis (Figure 4). Thus, the pheripheric position of the Ethiopian and South Eastern Italian (European) haplotypes suggests that the high values of variance registered in these regions likely reflect the stratification of different migratory events, some of which occurred before the expansion and diffusion of the lineage outside the Middle Eastern area. As previously reported [31,41], also the value of variance in the Omani is affected by the concomitant presence of both pheripheric and centrally expanded haplotypes. In this context, the low variance (0.118) observed in the Marsh Arabs underlines a recent expansion involving few haplotypes, all of which occupying a central position in the J1-Page08 network (Figure 4). In the less frequent J1-M267* clade, only marginally affected by events of expansion, Marsh Arabs shared haplotypes with other Iraqi and Assyrian samples, supporting a common local background (Figure 4). __________________ Where are you? Here. What time is it? Now. What are you? This moment.

April 12th, 2012, 09:01 PM	#63
SumerianKing Registered User Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: London Posts: 3,581 Likes (Received): 234	The analyses carried out on the mtDNA and Y chromosome of the Iraqi Marsh Arabs, a population living in the Tigris-Euphrates marshlands, have shown: (i) a prevalent autochthonous Middle Eastern component both in male and female gene pools; (ii) weak South-West Asian and African heritages, more evident for mtDNA; (iii) a higher male than female homogeneity, mainly determined by the co-occurrence of socio-cultural and genetic factors; (iv) a genetic stratification not only ascribable to recent events. The last point is well illustrated by Y-chromosome data where the less represented J1-M267* lineage indicates Northern Mesopotamia contributions, whereas the most frequent J1-Page08 branch reveals a local recent expansion about 4,000 years ago (Table 2). Although the Y-chromosome age estimates deserve caution, particularly when samples are small and standard errors large, it is interesting to note that these estimates overlap the City State period which characterised Southern Mesopotamia, and is testified to by numerous ancient Sumerian cities (Lagash, Ur, Uruk, Eridu and Larsa). In conclusion, our data show that the modern Marsh Arabs of Iraq harbour mtDNAs and Y chromosomes that are predominantly of Middle Eastern origin. Therefore, certain cultural features of the area such as water buffalo breeding and rice farming, which were most likely introduced from the Indian sub-continent, only marginally affected the gene pool of the autochthonous people of the region. Moreover, a Middle Eastern ancestral origin of the modern population of the marshes of southern Iraq implies that, if the Marsh Arabs are descendants of the ancient Sumerians, also Sumerians were not of Indian or Southern Asian ancestry. __________________ Where are you? Here. What time is it? Now. What are you? This moment.

April 13th, 2012, 12:34 PM	#65
Ali - Iraq Registered User Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Odense Posts: 3,251 Likes (Received): 105	rofl __________________ Samawa

April 13th, 2012, 12:44 PM	#66
SumerianKing Registered User Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: London Posts: 3,581 Likes (Received): 234	Lol I know you only said that because its full of language you find confusing. Shged mkhabal why dont you read it like a clever young girls and extract the important information. __________________ Where are you? Here. What time is it? Now. What are you? This moment.

April 13th, 2012, 10:29 AM	#64
FromBaghdadWithLove BANNED Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Baghdad Posts: 818 Likes (Received): 0	bro walla that is spam ^ dincheb.

June 14th, 2012, 11:28 PM	#67
SumerianKing Registered User Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: London Posts: 3,581 Likes (Received): 234	We kind of know, it cant be from the north, which is what you claim. Because when you get a grasp of the concept of the gradual transitional changes throughout mesopotamian history, it wont make sence. influence interexchanged between akkadians and sumerians, when the akkadians invaded them which the invention of the first empire/army. it is only after they laid their influence into babylon and other area, eg. Kish. Then over a thousand years did the Sargon of Akkad bring the land of assur and the assyrian empire to its might. Infact the north of iraq was mostly historically known for non semites , eg. The gutians and the hurrians. (which are mostly todays kurds) __________________ Where are you? Here. What time is it? Now. What are you? This moment.

June 15th, 2012, 12:07 AM	#69
SumerianKing Registered User Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: London Posts: 3,581 Likes (Received): 234	I understand your opinion, but its illogical and does not go with the established knowledge today. Also you can never say that 80% of iraqs have this haplogroup, where is this number comming from? Honestly you think that this number is logical? Has every iraqi been geneticaly tested, with also mitochodrial dna testing? Also these groups j2 or whatever exist, so do hundereds of other groups within our genetic makeup, what you fail to include is the percentage of that group within the amount of population of subjects that where geneticaly tested!! I have a link of a research paper by Al Zahary on this thread, check it out and youl see what I mean. __________________ Where are you? Here. What time is it? Now. What are you? This moment.

June 15th, 2012, 09:19 AM	#73
SumerianKing Registered User Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: London Posts: 3,581 Likes (Received): 234	Yeh I know what u mean hashimi. Anyway its a long subject that requires tons of research. __________________ Where are you? Here. What time is it? Now. What are you? This moment.

June 15th, 2012, 01:13 PM	#74
Sinjar Iraqi User Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Mosul and KRG Posts: 8,517 Likes (Received): 510	FBWL stop this. We are not on the streets. Have some dignity.

July 14th, 2012, 11:05 PM	#76
SumerianKing Registered User Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: London Posts: 3,581 Likes (Received): 234	hashimi I will paypal you £100 if you post evidence that kurds are not original inhabitants of the zagros mountains, and nearby areas of iraq. __________________ Where are you? Here. What time is it? Now. What are you? This moment.

July 14th, 2012, 11:27 PM	#78
SumerianKing Registered User Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: London Posts: 3,581 Likes (Received): 234	WIKIPEDIA ARGHH im not going to bother with you. and none of the above justifies your claims. and no im not, im not one of those people who only accepts what they want to hear. i read many books on iraqi history, and most importantly, i reflect upon it. i dont read wikipedia as my primary source. you just exposed yourself of where your development of knowledge comes from. OH GOD OUR GENERATION IS DOOOOOMED! __________________ Where are you? Here. What time is it? Now. What are you? This moment.

July 14th, 2012, 11:38 PM	#80
SumerianKing Registered User Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: London Posts: 3,581 Likes (Received): 234	when did i say iraqis are not semitic people and dont have semitic blood? wtfffare you rasheeds brother? And no i did not say or claim that the indo europeans are native to iraq. just because their language is, doesnt mean the iraqi kurds are!! i bet you know nothing about the hurrians or gutians, oh its ok wikiedia is a click away :/ sorry bro, i cant go on any longer, i cant take u serious no more and i mean no offence habibi. __________________ Where are you? Here. What time is it? Now. What are you? This moment.

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