HS2 | Station & Development

[woodhousen]

as im new to leeds and love following the story of HS2... or whatever it will be called by the time its built....

however as i dont know the city well yet, it would be thoroughly useful if there were some plans to show the sites youre discussing with possible station layouts on them. these dont have to be works of art, just mere discussion points....

[Leeds No.1]

You've moved to Leeds? Welcome to Leeds, and welcome to Yorkshire

Leeds City station is obviously City station.

I've just pinpointed the locations on Google Maps here- not sure I've seen any possible layout plans yet though?

http://g.co/maps/9a3kr

To me though, it seems as though the only real option is Crown Point. It has an existing throat due to its previous role as a goods yard, and is also a long and straight site- the only site that could accommodate 400m trains.

I suppose if no development has been made at Wellington Place (also pinpointed), it could be located there (the former site of Leeds Central), but it would be facing the wrong direction and would need to find a way to curve the lines round from there to the south. That'd require lots of viaducts, demolition or tunnels.

[LeedsLad]

I'm pretty sure I remember reading in some official docs that the Leeds end would likely require tunnelling, so I'm hoping for something as close to Leeds City Station as possible (perhaps underground).

[Leeds No.1]

Anything other than Crown Point probably would require tunnelling, but that's precisely why I doubt it'll be anything other than Crown Point.

I'm not sure we should be concerned with having the HS2 station as close to City as possible. While Leeds has had a largely monocentric rail network for a long time, it should be questioned how well this has served the city. Yes, it means people can change trains easily- but there's no business case for any sort of rapid transit, and it means the core is focused on the station rather than being reinforced at the edges by stations.

To use real examples, Manchester first justified Metrolink as a link between Victoria and Piccadilly, which of course paved the way for future expansions. Similarly in Birmingham, the Metro extension wouldn't be happening if it wasn't for the perceived need for a link between Snow Hill and New Street. And in Liverpool, a loop was built to connect its main stations. Leeds has never needed to link anything beyond the rail and bus stations.

In terms of stations reinforcing the boundaries of a central zone, London is the prime example, with stations arranged in a ring around Central London. This has allowed a dense core to spring up, and made it a very attractive place to invest. It's not just London though, the same can be seen in Birmingham, Manchester and Liverpool, where areas in between stations are more attractive areas to invest.

The South Bank is evidently attempting to bring this to Leeds. With City station at one end, and the HS2 station at the other, there should be a high footfall through the area and a lot of pedestrian traffic. That's what investors want- customers.

Having a HS2 station near to City is efficient in one sense, but think about it- it only means people can get out of Leeds as quickly as they got in. If people had to walk, or somehow get from HS2 to City, they'll spend money- maybe even stop for a drink or meal. It's the same argument as with the arena being on the opposite side of the city to City Station- it creates pedestrian flows.

[woodhousen]

Thank you Leeds No.1... very kind of you.

Yes i know there will be no official layouts yet, but in the brum thread, we went awol puting stations on sites across the city before we know the location of the proposed station... just for giggles mind.

for me, wellington place would be the obvious choice, but then i suppose it depends on what the city wants to get out of it.

just remember, these stations will be huge.... the birmingham station meassures nearly 500m long and 75m wide.... granted the leeds station will have only 4 platforms and not 6 like birmingham but these structres are still huge beasts!

[idlemoor]

Originally Posted by Leeds No.1

it only means people can get out of Leeds as quickly as they got in.

For the majority of Leeds City Region, who are *not* in Leeds proper, that is a feature, not a bug.

Originally Posted by Leeds No.1

If people had to walk, or somehow get from HS2 to City, they'll spend money- maybe even stop for a drink or meal.

For the majority of Leeds City Region, who are *not* in Leeds proper, that is a bug, not a feature.

Please remind yourself that the HS2 station is meant to serve the Region, not the City. kthxbai

[Leeds No.1]

Originally Posted by idlemoor

Please remind yourself that the HS2 station is meant to serve the Region, not the City.

I'm not a Leodensian (I'm Harlowian), but what's the point in build HS2 if it doesn't aid our economy. If it only means people can get from there house to London and back quicker, it's only there to serve London.

If it was at Crown Point, there'd be no reason why there couldn't be a rail shuttle round from City on the Pontefract Line anyway.

Originally Posted by woodhousen

Yes i know there will be no official layouts yet, but in the brum thread, we went awol puting stations on sites across the city before we know the location of the proposed station... just for giggles mind.

for me, wellington place would be the obvious choice, but then i suppose it depends on what the city wants to get out of it.

just remember, these stations will be huge.... the birmingham station meassures nearly 500m long and 75m wide.... granted the leeds station will have only 4 platforms and not 6 like birmingham but these structres are still huge beasts!

I think there are some on other HS threads across the forum- I've definitely seen some people plot routes somewhere.

Wellington Place is a good choice in terms of immediate location, but getting high speed lines in and out from there would be very difficult and expensive. It would either require a tight curve followed by extensive bridging or tunnelling, or paralleling the ECML route out of the city- but this is rather hilly so would require significant deep tunnelling for a high speed line.

Perhaps more obviously, there's a masterplan with planning permission at Wellington Place so... it may well be developed within the next few years.

The immediate Crown Point site is a little over 400m long, but you could push it back with modifications to the throat and make it around 600m. If necessary, it could cross Great Wilson Street, either by Great Wilson Street being rerouted, put in a tunnel or the station elevated, to add up to another 300m (depending on how much of the Brewery Site was eaten into).

It's also a site around 200m wide.

[Leeds No.1]

A map to say what I tried to say more easily.

With any lines, I'd expect them to follow upgraded/widened existing tracks into the City. Any new trajectories would need major demolition.

[Irish Blood English Heart]

Are there any sites that might be suitable near the Aire to the S.East of the city (around Clarence Rd or across the river from it)?

[idlemoor]

Originally Posted by Leeds No.1

what's the point in build HS2 if it doesn't aid our economy

"Our" economy? Clearly, in this context, by "our economy", you mean *your* Leeds City economy, not *our* Leeds City Region economy.

You proponents of Crown Point seem to have this pathetic "Exit Through The Gift Shop" vision for the terminus. There is much, much more to the LCR's economy than forcing unwanted retail opportunities at the weary traveller.

Originally Posted by Leeds No.1

If it only means people can get from there house to London and back quicker, it's only there to serve London.

Tripe. Each journey has *two* endpoints. When those endpoints are Bradford and London, HS2 serves both London and Bradford. When the endpoints are Harrogate and London, or Huddersfield and Birmingham, or Halifax and Nottingham, or Wakefield and London, or Ilkley and Birmingham, or Skipton and London...

I hope you get the point. Leeds should be merely HS2's host within LCR, not its exclusive destination.

Originally Posted by Leeds No.1

If it was at Crown Point, there'd be no reason why there couldn't be a rail shuttle round from City on the Pontefract Line anyway.

Well, apart from wasting all the saved journey time, and the massive inconvenience of an extra change if you're not a Pontefractician, and the extra traverses of the same Leeds City throat that you reckon is already FUBAR, well, no, of course not.

[larven]

The Wellington place site looks like the much better option to me.

Its near the main Leeds station and is close to the main business district, which is absolutely where you want it to be. Crucially its also vacant unlike the Crown Point site. How much would it cost to compensate the various retailers at Crown Point I wonder when that money could be much better spent on a superior location?

As a secondary thought a Wellington Place HS2 station could also start to make some sense of the dreadful string of isolated developments that extend eastwards along Whitehall Road.

[Leeds No.1]

Originally Posted by idlemoor

"Our" economy? Clearly, in this context, by "our economy", you mean *your* Leeds City economy, not *our* Leeds City Region economy.

I'm not from Leeds!

So come on, get to the bottom line. What's your point?

Originally Posted by larven

The Wellington place site looks like the much better option to me.

Its near the main Leeds station and is close to the main business district, which is absolutely where you want it to be. Crucially its also vacant unlike the Crown Point site. How much would it cost to compensate the various retailers at Crown Point I wonder when that money could be much better spent on a superior location?

As a secondary thought a Wellington Place HS2 station could also start to make some sense of the dreadful string of isolated developments that extend eastwards along Whitehall Road.

Yeah but it's not quite like that. While the location is good, it's not practical. The site isn't big enough to start with- it needs to be at least 400m long as that's the length of the trains. I measure the site at 330m long, so the station would need to bridge the Aire onto the Latitude/City Island site, meaning the viaduct would need to be demolished.

You're not really making a cost saving, because MEPC/Bam own the land, so you'd need to buy it off them.

The real practical issue though is about getting the lines out of that site. I can identify two options:

1) Demolishing a route through Holbeck to join onto the Pontefract lines and the main HS line near Stourton
2) Taking the line into a tunnel under Holbeck, Beeston and Middleton to connect onto the main HS line near Lofthouse

[larven]

The point appears brutally simple.

HS2 is supposed to save the time it takes to get between two points. It's not intended to shorten your actual journey time, thus leaving you more time to spend money in the Leeds city economy.

[larven]

Originally Posted by Leeds No.1

Yeah but it's not quite like that. While the location is good, it's not practical. The site isn't big enough to start with- it needs to be at least 400m long as that's the length of the trains. I measure the site at 330m long, so the station would need to bridge the Aire onto the Latitude/City Island site, meaning the viaduct would need to be demolished.

You're not really making a cost saving, because MEPC/Bam own the land, so you'd need to buy it off them.

The real practical issue though is about getting the lines out of that site. I can identify two options:

1) Demolishing a route through Holbeck to join onto the Pontefract lines and the main HS line near Stourton
2) Taking the line into a tunnel under Holbeck, Beeston and Middleton to connect onto the main HS line near Lofthouse

Oversailing the canal and demolishing at least part of that viaduct doesn't seem to present any significant problems in the big scheme of things. If you do both then the site is long and wide enough to accomodate an HS2 station comprising at least four platforms.

You usually always need to buy the land of someone, buying vacant land with planning permission is cheaper than buying land completely occupied with buildings with goodness knows what leases on the various units.

Getting the lines into that site is the trickiest issue I admit, a tight turn to the east with some tunnelling seems to be required, a situation not unlike the current path out of St Pancras on HS1.

[woodhousen]

I few points id like to make about HS2 in Birmingham which might be relevant to this conversation.

- the line into birmingham city centre does nto follow the line of an existing railway up until the last 2 miles into the city centre... consequently dont assume that it will follow the alignement of existing railways

- the last 5 miles of line into the city centre will be constructed on one huge viaduct to liit the impacts of topography

- the line passes through numerousn existing building... most notably, a 800 student resi scheme which was only completed 5 years ago and will now need to be demolished in the next 5-10 years to make way for HS2

[larven]

Which all leads me to believe that when it comes to siting the Leeds station, location will be by far the most important factor.

[Leeds No.1]

Originally Posted by woodhousen

- the line into birmingham city centre does nto follow the line of an existing railway up until the last 2 miles into the city centre

That's the key point though. I don't expect HS2 to follow an existing railway, but coming into City Centres, they're too heavily developed for a new route to be built from scratch- it'll be reliant on sticking to existing corridors- whether it's roads, railways or rivers. Could be either through widening with new HS tracks, or new bridges above so the lines are elevated about the old lines/roads.

We assume that the HS line will come up the flatter and less developed east, north of Meadowhall/east of Barnsley & Wakefield and in along the Aire Valley. That would mean it'd naturally fall onto the same corridor as the M621 and Pontefract Line.

A totally different possibility is for the line to follow the river more closely and terminate near Clarence Dock, but this really would be difficult- and woud be even further from the City than Crown Point or Wellington Street.

The Leeds Conservatives didn't even want it in the City. They've argued that the HS station should be at the proposed East Leeds Parkway near Micklefield with local trains shuttling people to/from City station.

Originally Posted by larven

Oversailing the canal and demolishing at least part of that viaduct doesn't seem to present any significant problems in the big scheme of things.

The bridge is listed so that listing would need to be removed. LCC would also need to revoke planning permission for Latitude Blue, or CPO & demolish it if built.

Originally Posted by larven

Getting the lines into that site is the trickiest issue I admit, a tight turn to the east with some tunnelling seems to be required, a situation not unlike the current path out of St Pancras on HS1.

But this is Leeds, not London. I highly doubt that the government will make the budget available for expensive tunnelling. Bridges where absolutely necessary, but they'll be keen to keep the regional stations as simple and as cheap as possible.

[Aaronj09]

Originally Posted by idlemoor

For the majority of Leeds City Region, who are *not* in Leeds proper, that is a feature, not a bug.



For the majority of Leeds City Region, who are *not* in Leeds proper, that is a bug, not a feature.

Please remind yourself that the HS2 station is meant to serve the Region, not the City. kthxbai

What are you babbling on about? The HS2 line cannot go anywhere west of Leeds, the topography does not allow it. And if it goes east of Leeds then what purpose does that serve, in the middle of the countryside?

[Nicholson]

First post!

Here's a crazy idea, would it be cheaper to repurpose (or remodel to allow for longer platforms) City Station for HS2 and build a smaller station for other lines east of the city, say somewhere near Quarry Hill?

[Austin_rothwell]

Having read the city council document regarding plans for the south bank, I swear it mentioned something about a desire to better connect the city centre with Crowne Point retail park through development of the brewery site.

Apparently it takes around the same amount of time to walk from City Station to Briggate as it does to walk to Crowne Point, however due to the built up environment in between, very few actually do.

It doesn't sound like the City Council want to demolish Crowne Point but increase custom instead.