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View Poll Results: Where do you think the Leeds HS2 station should be situated?
Leeds City Station/Criterion Place 31 54.39%
Crown Point 19 33.33%
Elsewhere/Other (Please indicate) 7 12.28%
Voters: 57. You may not vote on this poll

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Old April 16th, 2012, 08:07 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicholson View Post
Here's a crazy idea, would it be cheaper to repurpose (or remodel to allow for longer platforms) City Station for HS2 and build a smaller station for other lines east of the city, say somewhere near Quarry Hill?
Absolutely not- there's not enough space on the viaduct at City for several 400m platforms. Nearly all lines into City enter from the west too, which means local trains would still need to pass through City to get to your smaller station- which of course would still need to be as big as City to accommodate them all.

There have been proposals for a station at Quarry Hill, but to help relieve congested City. Allowing some trains to terminate at Quarry Hill would somewhat free up capacity at City and on the viaduct.

City is out of the question for the HS station, unless it is built above City Station. This would be very expensive though, and an engineering nightmare- not to mention it'd plunge City into New-Street-style darkness.


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Originally Posted by Austin_rothwell View Post
Having read the city council document regarding plans for the south bank, I swear it mentioned something about a desire to better connect the city centre with Crowne Point retail park through development of the brewery site.
...in preparation for an HS2 station.
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Old April 16th, 2012, 08:40 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Aaronj09 View Post
What are you babbling on about? The HS2 line cannot go anywhere west of Leeds, the topography does not allow it. And if it goes east of Leeds then what purpose does that serve, in the middle of the countryside?
What are *you* babbling on about? Putting HS2 "west of Leeds" or "east of Leeds" is entirely in your mind. Please stop making stuff up so you can accuse someone else of babbling.

The only locations that make sense for a regional station are those in close proximity to the regional transport hub: i.e. somewhere close to Leeds City. If that means building some more Dark Arches for the 21st century, or demolishing buildings in that vicinity that will not be much newer than (for example) the current occupants of the Crown Point site, surely we can do that.

The widespread assumption here that the approach will be via Stourton is unproven, and indeed the only indication that we currently have contraindicates this corridor. From already published material [1] it seems more likely that HS2 will largely follow the M1 corridor as far as Kirkhamgate. That would imply a Leeds-only spur tunneling through to the Wakefield Westgate line south of the White Rose centre, and HS2 proper swinging east onto the M62 corridor before going wherever. (East of Micklefield onto the current York line, at a guess.)

If the approach is indeed via White Rose, Crown Point is a non-starter. And good riddance too.

[1] http://www.hs2aa.org/index.php/the-route. It's an "anti" page, but even though they are on the wrong side, they certainly do their research, and they cite "Leeds Junction is 6 miles south and NE of Wakefield". From that point, it's both cheaper and quicker to get to the Wellington Place candidate site than to Crown Point.

Last edited by idlemoor; April 16th, 2012 at 08:52 PM.
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Old April 16th, 2012, 09:05 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by idlemoor View Post
The widespread assumption here that the approach will be via Stourton is unproven, and indeed the only indication that we currently have contraindicates this corridor. From already published material it seems more likely that HS2 will largely follow the M1 corridor as far as Kirkhamgate. That would imply a Leeds-only spur tunneling through to the Wakefield Westgate line south of the White Rose centre, and HS2 proper swinging east onto the M62 corridor before going wherever. (East of Micklefield onto the current York line, at a guess.)

If the approach is indeed via White Rose, Crown Point is a non-starter.
Time will tell, but I would put money on the line coming in from the SE than the SW.

Why would planners choose a route that goes through hilly and highly developed terrain that'd require extensive tunnelling, cutting and bridge building, when they could choose a far flatter route to the east which is largely fields until the industrial units at Stourton?

More importantly, I've only just mentioned Wellington Place in the last few hours. It's not been mooted before because it's pretty much not going to happen. It's very simple- the site isn't big enough, even if it were extended/elevated over the river/canal.
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Old April 16th, 2012, 09:08 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by idlemoor View Post
What are *you* babbling on about? Putting HS2 "west of Leeds" or "east of Leeds" is entirely in your mind. Please stop making stuff up so you can accuse someone else of babbling.
.
Then your posts are completely pointless.
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Old April 16th, 2012, 09:14 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Aaronj09 View Post
Then your posts are completely pointless.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection
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Old April 16th, 2012, 09:30 PM   #66
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I wont be holding my breath when it comes to HS2, I don't hold any real belief that the government will actually build HS2, And its going to be like 20 years from now we can ride HS2, brilliant job Britain, when the rest of western Europe already has a real system in place not this cheep piss take proposal we are maybe going to get. Welcome to the UK the third world of Europe........
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Old April 16th, 2012, 09:42 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by makita09 View Post
Here the Leeds end, North is to the right

Not much scope for tunnel here, so you can some properties get bulldozed
..
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Old April 16th, 2012, 09:49 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by THEONETHATLEEDS View Post
I wont be holding my breath when it comes to HS2, I don't hold any real belief that the government will actually build HS2, And its going to be like 20 years from now we can ride HS2, brilliant job Britain, when the rest of western Europe already has a real system in place not this cheep piss take proposal we are maybe going to get. Welcome to the UK the third world of Europe........
In twenty years France and Germany will probably have a replacement for their High Speed rail which won't even involve conventional tracks and will probably be powered by Dark Matter...anyway, my point is once the route is finalised and designs completed surely between that and completion, technology will have moved on a lot. I'm not sure of the outcome if HS2 gets built, but one thing i can be sure of is that Britain will still be behind our European neighbours.
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Old April 16th, 2012, 10:02 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spacemansam View Post
In twenty years France and Germany will probably have a replacement for their High Speed rail which won't even involve conventional tracks and will probably be powered by Dark Matter...anyway, my point is once the route is finalised and designs completed surely between that and completion, technology will have moved on a lot. I'm not sure of the outcome if HS2 gets built, but one thing i can be sure of is that Britain will still be behind our European neighbours.
Well said Spacemansam, loving the dark matter idea
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Old April 17th, 2012, 10:28 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by Leeds No.1 View Post
The bridge is listed so that listing would need to be removed. LCC would also need to revoke planning permission for Latitude Blue, or CPO & demolish it if built.
You're throwing up minor problems that can easily be overcome in the context of this scheme. I can't think of a more worthy reason to demolish a 'not especially outstanding' listed viaduct than to make make way for a new high speed railway station. Latitude Blue is a 116,000 sqft building that hasn't even been built yet, it doesn't really present any significant problem at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leeds No.1 View Post
But this is Leeds, not London. I highly doubt that the government will make the budget available for expensive tunnelling. Bridges where absolutely necessary, but they'll be keen to keep the regional stations as simple and as cheap as possible.
The line into Manchester goes through extensive tunnels as it approaches the city centre. Are you saying that a city centre Leeds station doesn't warrant at least some tunnelling? This isn't a supertram or new urban line we're talking about, it will be a terminus station for one of, if not the most important railway line in 21st century Britain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leeds No.1 View Post
More importantly, I've only just mentioned Wellington Place in the last few hours. It's not been mooted before because it's pretty much not going to happen. It's very simple- the site isn't big enough, even if it were extended/elevated over the river/canal.
The site is big enough. Its 550m long and nearly 100m wide.

I suppose the Crown Point site could be suitable but if it is announced as the location then LCC better get their skates on and really try to integrate that area better in the city centre. If South Bank takes off and something is done about the dual carriageway (it could perhaps be sunk or built over to create a huge plaza fronting the new HS terminus) the I could see it working. As you've mentioned the alignment is good too as the new line could follow the existing rail corridor to the South out of the city.
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Old April 17th, 2012, 12:45 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by larven View Post
The line into Manchester goes through extensive tunnels as it approaches the city centre.
No plans have been drawn up for phase 2 beyond Birmingham, so I don't know where you have got this from. Only London - Birmingham has been planned.


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The site is big enough. Its 550m long and nearly 100m wide.
It's only 550m long if you bridge the river into Latitude, but then it's not 100m wide because Latitude Red is in the way. There's also the Train Lifting Tower on the north west side.

If you take the site as 550m, there's no room for the lines to curve, so would need to head SW initially. More importantly, using the whole 550m site would mean the line needs to be elevated to cross the river and canal. Therefore there's no room for a tunnel portal if it needed to go into one.
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Old April 17th, 2012, 01:18 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Leeds No.1 View Post
No plans have been drawn up for phase 2 beyond Birmingham, so I don't know where you have got this from. Only London - Birmingham has been planned.




It's only 550m long if you bridge the river into Latitude, but then it's not 100m wide because Latitude Red is in the way. There's also the Train Lifting Tower on the north west side.

If you take the site as 550m, there's no room for the lines to curve, so would need to head SW initially. More importantly, using the whole 550m site would mean the line needs to be elevated to cross the river and canal. Therefore there's no room for a tunnel portal if it needed to go into one.
I can't remember the figures off the top of my head but the report stated how much each north route would be in tunnel, cutting, surface and embankment and the tunnel figures for the Manchester section basically exactly correlated with how far it is from Manchester Airport to the city centre.
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Old April 17th, 2012, 01:27 PM   #73
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Fair enough, but I still think it's too much to assume anything detailed.

Where's this report? It will probably shed light on the Leeds approach, but as the SE and SW approaches are far less developed than the southern suburbs of Manchester, I'm not expecting significant tunnelling for the most part.
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Old April 17th, 2012, 09:47 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by THEONETHATLEEDS View Post
Welcome to the UK the third world of Europe........
Ermmmm... have you been to much of Europe?
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Old April 17th, 2012, 10:20 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by Leeds No.1 View Post

Where's this report? It will probably shed light on the Leeds approach, but as the SE and SW approaches are far less developed than the southern suburbs of Manchester, I'm not expecting significant tunnelling for the most part.
2010 report here:

http://webarchive.nationalarchives.g...pdf/report.pdf

see pages 11 to 13. The HS2 route from Brum to Leeds is assessed here as requiring at least 5 miles of tunnelling. But most of that is likely to be into and out of Meadowhall.

Quote:
The approach to Leeds would require detailed analysis during design. Where practicable we assume that the line would run alongside the existing transport system. However, as it approaches the centre of Leeds it might have to incorporate some tunnelling in order to access possible alternative city centre station locations and to limit the effects on property, people and businesses and local environmental and cultural sites
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Old April 17th, 2012, 11:05 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by joeb85 View Post
Ermmmm... have you been to much of Europe?
Yes i have, spent long periods living in Germany, Austria, Holland and Switzerland, oh and spent many extended vacations to Scandinavia. I state it again welcome to the UK the third world of Europe. Enough said!!!!! I think
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Old April 17th, 2012, 11:12 PM   #77
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I KNEW I'd read that somewhere nerd, but couldn't find reference to it. Thanks for posting.
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Old April 17th, 2012, 11:36 PM   #78
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Yes i have, spent long periods living in Germany, Austria, Holland and Switzerland, oh and spent many extended vacations to Scandinavia. I state it again welcome to the UK the third world of Europe. Enough said!!!!! I think
What a load of shit. Do you ever post anything sensible? Twat.
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Old April 17th, 2012, 11:38 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by THEONETHATLEEDS View Post
Yes i have, spent long periods living in Germany, Austria, Holland and Switzerland, oh and spent many extended vacations to Scandinavia. I state it again welcome to the UK the third world of Europe. Enough said!!!!! I think
And what exactly makes the UK 'the third world of Europe' compared to these places, because we have no high speed rail? Do you know Scandinavia has no high speed rail either? Or Switzerland? Or Austria? And only small sections of Germany? And what about about Ireland, and all of eastern Europe? Only France has any extensive high speed rail system. To even suggest the UK has any third world qualities is highly insulting to people who actually live in third world countries, starving, with no infrastructure of any kind at all. Get a grip!!!!!!
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Old April 17th, 2012, 11:55 PM   #80
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So the key part I pick out is this, which I'm not really sure tells us anything we hadn't already forseen:

'The approach to Leeds would require detailed analysis during design. Where practicable we assume that the line would run alongside the existing transport system. However, as it approaches the centre of Leeds it might have to incorporate some tunnelling in order to access possible alternative city centre station locations and to limit the effects on property, people and businesses and local environmental and cultural sites.'

It's all very conditional, and if there is some tunnelling I expect it to be minimal.
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