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View Poll Results: What should be the speed limit on highways?
no speed limit, limited only temporarily for some reason. 37 36.63%
140 km / h. As requested by certain groups in Spain. 19 18.81%
130 km / h. As in France and in other European countries. 38 37.62%
120 km / h. Current limit in Spain. 9 8.91%
I have no opinion on the matter. 1 0.99%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 101. You may not vote on this poll

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Old April 16th, 2012, 01:54 PM   #61
Surel
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To both of you. It is as simple as that, you are not alone on the roads. If you were the only driver on the road, then indeed the speed limits dont make sence. You are however not.

I dont know if you are familiar with game theory, but I'll ilustrate.

Given that you dont drive alone on the motorway and given that not everyone has the same car and abilities, your actions on the motorway influence the comfort of other drivers on the motorway. Since you choose to speed up, someone else have to choose to speed down, or devote much more attention to the driving, thus your comfort is causing discomfort to someone else. In the same logic, if there were more drivers going for high speed, their own comfort of driving would decrease rapidly. Regulation emerges as natural answer to this problem in a same way the law and state emerges as natural answer to the overall social interaction problems.

There is no question that the existence of not regulated areas is possible, but it requires high self discipline from the participants. The fraction of "free riders" and self prefering participants have to be quite low in order to allow no rules paradigm. Once they show to be destructing the system, it is only natural that the agreement on rules become necessary in order to sustain the system.

Precise calibration of the rules is indeed questionary.
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Old April 16th, 2012, 01:56 PM   #62
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Agreed 110% with Surel and italystf
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Old April 16th, 2012, 02:38 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Surel View Post
Since you choose to speed up, someone else have to choose to speed down, or devote much more attention to the driving, thus your comfort is causing discomfort to someone else.
Seriously? It's overtaxing your abilities should I drive by your car doing 220 kmh while you do whatever speed you are comfortable with ? I'm rather sick of people who declare their comfort zone the standard for everyone.

I mean, yes, of course there are idiots out there. We all know that guy who's half in your trunk, blinking like a christmas tree while you are passing a bunch of trucks and couldn't make space even if you really wanted to. I encounter such people as well. But basing a general, enforced rule on that seems a bit much, wouldn't you agree ?
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Old April 16th, 2012, 02:42 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Stahlsturm View Post
Seriously? It's overtaxing your abilities should I drive by your car doing 220 kmh while you do whatever speed you are comfortable with ? I'm rather sick of people who declare their comfort zone the standard for everyone.
Yes, it's very uncomfortable when, on a 2-lane autobahn, I am forced to stay on the right lane by a column of 200+ kmh cars on the left lane.

So you're sick of people who declare their comfort zone standard for everyone? We, 130 kmh drivers, could say the same about you.
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Old April 16th, 2012, 02:51 PM   #65
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The system just ate up my rather long post... That is rather annoying...

The gist of what I was saying is that on the road everyone has to watch out for everyone around him anyways, regardless if you're doing 130 or 220. And when the slower car passes the faster one has to wait. Usually you can see that from 3 km away already. I hardly ever need brakes on the motorway because I look ahead and take my foot off the gas in time.
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Old April 16th, 2012, 03:06 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Stahlsturm View Post
The system just ate up my rather long post... That is rather annoying...

The gist of what I was saying is that on the road everyone has to watch out for everyone around him anyways, regardless if you're doing 130 or 220.
Nobody said otherwise. It's the degree of stress the factor here. If everybody do 120-130-140-150, I can relax a little bit because a little mistake (mine or somebody else's) can be easily corrected befor it becomes fatal.
If some are doing 130 and some others 200, this is not the case anymore.

I'm not saying I can pay less attention driving slower: I just say it is less stressful, and I don't see why I have to stress myself to let the adrenaline junkies do their showdowns.
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Old April 16th, 2012, 03:20 PM   #67
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Well, there's fast and idiotically fast I guess. I agree with you that trying to plow through heavy traffic at 220 is a very bad idea and a lot of stress for everyone. On the other side, having to go 130 on an almost empty motorway (and I do encounter plenty of those too) is a royal pain you know where. The magic word is "angepasstes Fahren" (and unfortunately I have no idea how to properly translate that into a catchy english term but it basically means driving adjusted to the situation) and you can't really do that anymore once there is a general speed limit.
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Old April 16th, 2012, 03:23 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stahlsturm View Post
Seriously? It's overtaxing your abilities should I drive by your car doing 220 kmh while you do whatever speed you are comfortable with ? I'm rather sick of people who declare their comfort zone the standard for everyone.

I mean, yes, of course there are idiots out there. We all know that guy who's half in your trunk, blinking like a christmas tree while you are passing a bunch of trucks and couldn't make space even if you really wanted to. I encounter such people as well. But basing a general, enforced rule on that seems a bit much, wouldn't you agree ?
I agree that you dont understand a thing from what I was saying. I am not setting anyone's standard to be the rule. The rules are there in order to maximize the comfort of the individiuals and the society as a whole because they punish the individuals that would behave "rationaly" in their eyes, maximizing their own utility, but in fact, because of their action their own utility as well as utility of the society would suffer. Without the rules that discourage such (ir)rational behaviour everyone is in fact worse off in a strict sence and society is certainly worse off.

Notice that I am not advocating the speed limits on the german roads, or speed limits in general. I just show that the existence of speed limits is due to the selfish driving culture of big part of the population if the limits would not be in place. This would result in overall discomfort of the drivers if the limits were not in place.

I think that such opinnions like yours come from the simple fact that you dont realize (or dont care) that your actions affect the comfort and actions of other people. What you then forget is that their actions in response affect your own comfort and what may seem as nice rational choice in first moment turns out to be destructive for both parties, especially if you encounter similar personality.
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Old April 16th, 2012, 03:25 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Stahlsturm View Post
Well, there's fast and idiotically fast I guess. I agree with you that trying to plow through heavy traffic at 220 is a very bad idea and a lot of stress for everyone. On the other side, having to go 130 on an almost empty motorway (and I do encounter plenty of those too) is a royal pain you know where. The magic word is "angepasstes Fahren" (and unfortunately I have no idea how to properly translate that into a catchy english term but it basically means driving adjusted to the situation) and you can't really do that anymore once there is a general speed limit.
Well then we finally get to conclusion. Didnt you notice the dawn of intelligent speed control on the motorways is coming? This solution was earlier simply not available, therefore the general speed limits was the only rule solution that society had to eliminate the crazy driving. The loss of utility on the side of few that wanted to drive fast was rather small compared to the generall gain. Well with intelligent speed limit control we can be even more efficient.
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Old April 16th, 2012, 03:32 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stahlsturm View Post
Well, there's fast and idiotically fast I guess. I agree with you that trying to plow through heavy traffic at 220 is a very bad idea and a lot of stress for everyone. On the other side, having to go 130 on an almost empty motorway (and I do encounter plenty of those too) is a royal pain you know where. The magic word is "angepasstes Fahren" (and unfortunately I have no idea how to properly translate that into a catchy english term but it basically means driving adjusted to the situation) and you can't really do that anymore once there is a general speed limit.
I just give you my example.
In 2008 I was doing 100 km/h on an empty Italian motorway, when after a very short tunnel and a descent with a little rightward curve I encountered an unsignaled queue. I hit the brake but crashed onto the car in front of me. Nobody was seriously injured (I broke my sternum and the lady in the front car had a whiplash injury). I was doing only 100 (the limit was 130) because I had a crappy old car that couldn't afford to go much faster, but If I did 200 I would have killed myself and surely other people.

There is no thing like angepasstes Fahren, the sooner you realize it, the better. You always have to drive according to worst case scenario, not the best case one: you don't know what's behind that curve, or even in a straight stretch, you can't foresee a mechanical or human failure of the car in front of you, or your own.
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Old April 16th, 2012, 03:35 PM   #71
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My answer keeps getting denied and I seriously have no idea why. I'm not using any bad words at all.
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Old April 16th, 2012, 03:37 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
There is no thing like angepasstes Fahren, the sooner you realize it, the better. You always have to drive according to worst case scenario, not the best case one: you don't know what's behind that curve, or even in a straight stretch, you can't foresee a mechanical or human failure of the car in front of you, or your own.
But not going 200 when you can't see ahead IS "angepasstes fahren". I know mountainous motorways in Italy, Bologna to Firenze for instance. trying to fly through there any faster than 130 is complete suicide in my opinion.
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Old April 16th, 2012, 03:40 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Surel View Post
Well then we finally get to conclusion. Didnt you notice the dawn of intelligent speed control on the motorways is coming? This solution was earlier simply not available, therefore the general speed limits was the only rule solution that society had to eliminate the crazy driving. The loss of utility on the side of few that wanted to drive fast was rather small compared to the generall gain. Well with intelligent speed limit control we can be even more efficient.
You are right and I'm not opposed to that either unless it's abused by just leaving it on 120 even at 3 am when I can see 5 km ahead because it's a completely straight motorway (They love doing that on the A 9 going north from München for instance...). Unfortunately installing intelligent traffic control is also very expensive so it'll never be everywhere and a general speed limit is still a bad thing. This thread after all was initially about whether there should be a general limit and how high it should be.
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Old April 16th, 2012, 03:44 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Stahlsturm View Post
But not going 200 when you can't see ahead IS "angepasstes fahren". I know mountainous motorways in Italy, Bologna to Firenze for instance. trying to fly through there any faster than 130 is complete suicide in my opinion.
Ok, but that does not account for other 1000 things that can go wrong even on a straight piece of motorway.
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Old April 16th, 2012, 03:47 PM   #75
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Ok, but that does not account for other 1000 things that can go wrong even on a straight piece of motorway.
Well, if you want 100 % safety you should probably stay at home as much as you can, right ?
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Old April 16th, 2012, 03:50 PM   #76
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Well, if you want 100 % safety you should probably stay at home as much as you can, right ?
Maybe I just want a little more than 0% safety of a 200 km/h 1.5 tons car crashing into mine.
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Old April 16th, 2012, 04:00 PM   #77
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Maybe I just want a little more than 0% safety of a 200 km/h 1.5 tons car crashing into mine.
I think my Alfa is slightly heavier than that... :P But yeah, I can see your point, it would be rather annoying for both parties. Still, in all my years of driving (since 1985) I've never had an accident because I drive as the situation allows and I've had all kinds of things from animals running in front of my car to unexpected traffic jams appearing around a corner to cars blowing a tire right in front of me and my personal favourite, some dutch fellow forgetting he was pulling a trailer and plowing that into a truck he just passed and went back into the right lane. I "escaped" all of these by either braking in time or speeding up in time and getting myself into safety. That is what I mean by "angepasstes Fahren".

I really just want to have the freedom to decide for myself how fast I want to go and I don't go 200 all the time. Not with gas prices at 1.70 for a liter... But I'd much rather watch out for traffic than for speed cameras, I think that is much healthier for everyone.
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Old April 16th, 2012, 04:01 PM   #78
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You are right and I'm not opposed to that either unless it's abused by just leaving it on 120 even at 3 am when I can see 5 km ahead because it's a completely straight motorway (They love doing that on the A 9 going north from München for instance...). Unfortunately installing intelligent traffic control is also very expensive so it'll never be everywhere and a general speed limit is still a bad thing. This thread after all was initially about whether there should be a general limit and how high it should be.
So you see, we again get to the cost gains question... When the intelligent control is too expensive it is still cheaper for the society to have sometimes general speed limit or at least a board.

That you feel it as a bad thing doesnt make from it a bad thing... The answer is relative to the conditions as I already noted in my first comment to this thread. Correct speed limit is such that makes the driving safe and comfortable for majority of the drivers.

Anyway I really advice you to read a bit about game theory. This is best start: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner%27s_dilemma

It is intersting to realize that the result of the game can be changed by a external force (regulation). Its pity that there is so little on this topic in the modern economics (topic of that regulation is self appearing as the most efficient solution in the game theory), because thats nobel prize topic .
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Old April 16th, 2012, 04:07 PM   #79
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I think my Alfa is slightly heavier than that...
You're German and driving Alfa? You must be one of a kind... I lived in Germany for 1 year and I've seen none (actually I've seen one, but he stepped down from his car and spoke Italian )

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:P But yeah, I can see your point, it would be rather annoying for both parties. Still, in all my years of driving (since 1985) I've never had an accident because I drive as the situation allows and I've had all kinds of things from animals running in front of my car to unexpected traffic jams appearing around a corner to cars blowing a tire right in front of me and my personal favourite, some dutch fellow forgetting he was pulling a trailer and plowing that into a truck he just passed and went back into the right lane. I "escaped" all of these by either braking in time or speeding up in time and getting myself into safety. That is what I mean by "angepasstes Fahren".
I can see your point either, but we're not getting very far: you drive very fast and never had an accident, I drive well below the limits and and one. I think the only thing would be looking at the statistics of speed, number and seriousness of accidents, and so on. Unfortunately I don't have such data.

Quote:
I really just want to have the freedom to decide for myself how fast I want to go and I don't go 200 all the time. Not with gas prices at 1.70 for a liter... But I'd much rather watch out for traffic than for speed cameras, I think that is much healthier for everyone.
Always remember that your freedom ends where mine begins, as Surel explained very well
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Old April 16th, 2012, 04:20 PM   #80
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Anyway I really advice you to read a bit about game theory. This is best start: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner%27s_dilemma
I'll have to read through this more carefully than a quick glance to actually be able to comment on it.
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