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View Poll Results: What should be the speed limit on highways?
no speed limit, limited only temporarily for some reason. 37 36.63%
140 km / h. As requested by certain groups in Spain. 19 18.81%
130 km / h. As in France and in other European countries. 38 37.62%
120 km / h. Current limit in Spain. 9 8.91%
I have no opinion on the matter. 1 0.99%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 101. You may not vote on this poll

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Old April 18th, 2012, 02:19 PM   #121
Stahlsturm
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Originally Posted by Surel View Post
Good luck seeing and recognizing through your mirror the speed of car that is 300 or 400 meters behind you.
If you keep an eye on the traffic around you (as one should at all times) that is actually not a hard feat at all. I frequently drive buses at work which barely go 120 kmh so I see either side of the argument pretty regularly and even in the bus I hardly ever get "in trouble".
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Old April 18th, 2012, 02:27 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by Stahlsturm View Post
If you keep an eye on the traffic around you (as one should at all times) that is actually not a hard feat at all. I frequently drive buses at work which barely go 120 kmh so I see either side of the argument pretty regularly and even in the bus I hardly ever get "in trouble".
Well, the argument was for whom is it more comfortable... you ignore it.
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Old April 18th, 2012, 02:27 PM   #123
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If 99 drivers are willing to pay 10 euro for having general speed limits on the motorways you would have to be willing to pay 990 euro for having no limitis in order to support your argument.... Thats all what it is about. Even better is to measure this with minutes, because they are not so easy to obtain as money:

e.g. if 99 drivers would be willing to pay 1 minute each time they drive in order to have general speed limit, you would have to pay 99 minutes for your drive.

(the chosen measure values are not based in any real valuation, they only show that such valuation is necessary)

The argument about freedom is rather wrongly placed.

First, it comments on quite different freedoms that the freedom to speed up.

Second, even if we let it in, there are people whose freedom would be lowered because of the higher freedom of the person that wants to speed up. Thus the argument is only relative not absolute...
You know, by now I'm beginning to think you are trying to bait me...

One last time, I'm not talking reckless insanity, I'm saying that a general country wide speed limit is (and, in case of Germany would be) an undue limitation. No sane responsible driver would try to plow through heavy traffic at 220 kmh and no sane responsible driver will go 120 kmh on a completely empty 3 lane motorway at 10 at night.

To many regulations are bad for independent thought and the ability of decision making.
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Old April 18th, 2012, 02:30 PM   #124
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Well, the argument was for whom is it more comfortable... you ignore it.
Do I ? I'm perfectly comfortable at 120 or 220 and drive accordingly. If paying attention to traffic is too much for someone, well...
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Old April 18th, 2012, 02:39 PM   #125
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To many regulations are bad for independent thought and the ability of decision making.
Independent thought and the ability to decide is often producing suboptimal results. People need rules and they often create them also for themselves. Be it becuase they have weak will or because of the social interaction.

Its like you need to lock the candy in the box and throw the key away because you are afraid that you would eat all the candy at once.

Its like having independent monetary policy because the government would otherwise print the money and inflate.

Its like having written contract and law system that punishes the ones that dont obey the contracts.

Its like having highway police patrols because even if everyone knows the rules and giving righ of way is benefitiary to everyone, without actuall punishment people would not do it.

Its like having speed limit rules.

That some behaviour is acceptable according to you, doesnt make it yet socially acceptable...
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Old April 18th, 2012, 02:41 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by Stahlsturm View Post
Do I ? I'm perfectly comfortable at 120 or 220 and drive accordingly. If paying attention to traffic is too much for someone, well...
your comfort may be someone elses discomfort, is it so hard to understand?

Its like saying that the tincar driver comfortably pulls in front of the speeding car, because he doesnt care about that guy behind has to break hard..., he should be paying attention to the tincars in 300 meters in front of him automatically, if paying attention to him is too much, well..... Well you dont care, that someone elses has to pay much more attention to the driving because you are flying in the left lane...
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Old April 18th, 2012, 03:50 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by Surel View Post
your comfort may be someone elses discomfort, is it so hard to understand?

Its like saying that the tincar driver comfortably pulls in front of the speeding car, because he doesnt care about that guy behind has to break hard..., he should be paying attention to the tincars in 300 meters in front of him automatically, if paying attention to him is too much, well..... Well you dont care, that someone elses has to pay much more attention to the driving because you are flying in the left lane...
Would you also like to give a lobotomy to people with a university degree because that might make some less schooled people uncomfortable ?

I get your point somewhat, we do need a "social contract" of sorts that doesn't sacrifice everything to the strong. Still, I think that regulating too much is the wrong way. And trust me, as a German I know just how bad overregulation can be.
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Old April 18th, 2012, 04:03 PM   #128
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Would you also like to give a lobotomy to people with a university degree because that might make some less schooled people uncomfortable ?
I guess that not, because the society as a whole would be worse off if you would make everybody dumb.
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Old April 18th, 2012, 04:19 PM   #129
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I guess that not, because the society as a whole would be worse off if you would make everybody dumb.
Some common ground at last
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Old April 18th, 2012, 04:23 PM   #130
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Some common ground at last
We keep very cunning criminals behind the bar, irrespective of their supperiority...

But I agree with you on this one, as long as it works. It is conditioned by perhaps german culture to behave in a socially beneficial way implicitly. And even so, the no limit rule is available on roughly 50 % of the network. It is thus conditioned by other things anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stahlsturm View Post
One last time, I'm not talking reckless insanity, I'm saying that a general country wide speed limit is (and, in case of Germany would be) an undue limitation. No sane responsible driver would try to plow through heavy traffic at 220 kmh and no sane responsible driver will go 120 kmh on a completely empty 3 lane motorway at 10 at night.

Last edited by Surel; April 18th, 2012 at 04:30 PM.
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Old April 18th, 2012, 04:46 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by Surel View Post
And even so, the no limit rule is available on roughly 50 % of the network. It is thus conditioned by other things anyway.
I'm not opposed to limits when they make perfect sense. Not that all limits in Germany do but that's yet another story, hahaha. I am opposed to blanket decisions and to limitations set by politicians instead of traffic experts.
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Old April 18th, 2012, 05:27 PM   #132
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just a last comment

I think we would also agree that it is different to have discomfort because someone else characteristics are what they are and feeling discomfort because of the actions of other people irrespective of their characteristics...
(e.g. you example with low IQ people feeling discomfort because of high IQ people existence, versus situation of low IQ people being laughed at)

In the road and higways forum this would translate to the difference between feeling discomfort because someone else likes to drive fast and you like to drive slow and feeling discomfort because when you are driving slow on the motorway someone elses driving fast around you makes you feeling not comfortable. The first case really cannot be helped but in the second case there must come some social agreement.
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Old April 18th, 2012, 05:28 PM   #133
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I am glad that you note this. Because that shows how the slow drivers are being punished when the fast drivers are in fact rewarded. When the slow driver has to wait for the fast drivers to pass by. The question is then, is the comfort of fast drivers more important then the comfort of the slow drivers?

That is something that you, the proponents of no general speed limits at all costs, are not willing to answer...
No, it's simply enforcing the right of way rules, the same applies in Holland, even if you'd pull out in front of me when I'm speeding towards you, the fact that I'm speeding would only partly put me at fault for the insurers, the person who did the special maneuver and changed lanes is at fault.

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Originally Posted by Surel View Post
It is certainly so, many of them are not used to the autobahn speeds. But I also see very often how the cars instantly speed up after the german borders.


If someone is doing 100 behind a truck and wants to overtake and you are doing 170, there is 70 km/h difference. That is 20 m/s. Lets say that the tincan can speed up up to 130 in like 10 seconds and overtake the truck in around 15 or 20 sec. That would give you the distance of 300 or 400 meters. Good luck seeing and recognizing through your mirror the speed of car that is 300 or 400 meters behind you.
That is my whole argument, if people are unable to look back 300-400 meters in your mirror then obviously they shouldn't have their license. The whole idea is to look forward and back as far as possible. 400 meters on a motorway is really nothing. It's mostly non Germans in DE who have problems with this.
Quote:
Again you gave the argument, but your arguments actually supports the other side... Since you would have to first argue, that the discomfort of the tincan driver because of no general limit is lower then the discomfort of the fast driver because of the speed limit.
Time(=money) + (arguably) freedom > Discomfort. In fact, if people are uncomfortable with checking their mirrors properly then they need therapy imho. Even with a city tin can it's perfectly possible to travel at high speed. If I had something like a Pug 106, What I'd do is lower throttle, increase distance between truck and myself, then throw it into third, and accelerate as hard as possible on the right lane, and move to the left when near the truck again, usually this means the car should be doing 150-160... Then I'm not significantly impeding any traffic.
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Old April 18th, 2012, 05:54 PM   #134
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No, it's simply enforcing the right of way rules, the same applies in Holland, even if you'd pull out in front of me when I'm speeding towards you, the fact that I'm speeding would only partly put me at fault for the insurers, the person who did the special maneuver and changed lanes is at fault.


That is my whole argument, if people are unable to look back 300-400 meters in your mirror then obviously they shouldn't have their license. The whole idea is to look forward and back as far as possible. 400 meters on a motorway is really nothing. It's mostly non Germans in DE who have problems with this.

Time(=money) + (arguably) freedom > Discomfort. In fact, if people are uncomfortable with checking their mirrors properly then they need therapy imho. Even with a city tin can it's perfectly possible to travel at high speed. If I had something like a Pug 106, What I'd do is lower throttle, increase distance between truck and myself, then throw it into third, and accelerate as hard as possible on the right lane, and move to the left when near the truck again, usually this means the car should be doing 150-160... Then I'm not significantly impeding any traffic.
Hmm. Well speeding is also breaking the rules. Guess what would say the insurence company to your argument that doing 170 on 130 section I changed the lane 300 meters in front of you and endangered your right of way... lol.

I really need to finish this discussion because it is uselles.

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Originally Posted by snowdog View Post
if people are unable to look back 300-400 meters in your mirror then obviously they shouldn't have their license.
With your logic it is more than clear that if people are not able to look 300 or 400 meters in front of them they shouldnt have their license as well.

Or do you prefer such solutions for slow drivers that make you lose time and freedom?



The only thing you are arguing here is that you say that what you want is more important that what someone else wants...

Last edited by Surel; April 18th, 2012 at 06:52 PM.
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Old April 19th, 2012, 12:13 AM   #135
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With your logic it is more than clear that if people are not able to look 300 or 400 meters in front of them they shouldnt have their license as well.

Or do you prefer such solutions for slow drivers that make you lose time and freedom?

The only thing you are arguing here is that you say that what you want is more important that what someone else wants...
Yes, but if they are in their own lane minding their own business THEY have the right of way and not the one in the right lane wanting to overtake. Change lane= give way but some seem to forget that... It is the responsibility of the one that changes lane to look in his mirrors, not the one who is already there to brake for someone for pulling out in front of him.

Hardly just me, slow drivers are limiting faster drivers, faster drivers do not limit anyone to travel at the same speed as they do.

I feel this is going nowhere, I can't empathise with someone who doesn't like people going faster than they do. We will always disagree.
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Old April 19th, 2012, 05:08 AM   #136
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Yes, but if they are in their own lane minding their own business THEY have the right of way and not the one in the right lane wanting to overtake. Change lane= give way but some seem to forget that... It is the responsibility of the one that changes lane to look in his mirrors, not the one who is already there to brake for someone for pulling out in front of him.

Hardly just me, slow drivers are limiting faster drivers, faster drivers do not limit anyone to travel at the same speed as they do.

I feel this is going nowhere, I can't empathise with someone who doesn't like people going faster than they do. We will always disagree.
I think this is a wicked way to see traffic.

Of course people entering a lane must be sure they are not cutting short a driver obliging him to make a hard braking maneuver. However, that doesn't mean a driver that is him/herself restrained to a speed below the maximum/reccomended in the right lane because of slower traffic must not overtake this slower traffic because someone wants to drive even faster on the left lane!!!

I will use the following example, again:

2 lane Autobahn, heavy, but not congested, traffic

- right lane: pack of trucks, buses and RVs going at 90-100km/h

- left lane: semi-empty, with some drivers going 160km/h

if I'm stuck behind an RV at 100, I can enter the left lane provided I'm not cutting into a fast car putting him beyond the safety distance. However, if a car is like 400m behind, and I enter the fast lane, the other drive MUST slow down so to keep a safe distance while I overtake a train or RVs and trucks at 120-130km/h.

What I don't agree is with this presumption that if you can't drive as fast as the fastest car on the left lane, and the right is full, you should "make way" by slowing yourself down below the limit/recommended by pulling over to the right lane.

I always check my mirror, but in some countries cars going very fast and very far behind you will start flashing as you had to give way to them like they were cops/ambulance/firefighting.

In some 1+1 expressways in Italy, some drivers will flash heavily slow drivers (50-60 km/h) even as to make them go over the shoulder to allow a tight passing, sometimes, which is an extremely dangerous maneuver.

Note: I'm not talking about lane hogging, but situations in which traffic on the right lane is heavy and you don't have space to go right and let someone pass without having to slow down a lot and having extreme difficult to rejoin the fast lane (as it requires further backing up the slower traffic behind you so that you can make a bit of room to accelerate hard and join the left lane again).
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Old April 19th, 2012, 06:43 AM   #137
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I don't think either of you understands what I meant. Every general limitation imposed by society to gain security will ultimately backfire.
Traffic is not a field where you should express your liberty and do whatever you want. Traffic is already full of rules for decades and speed limit is just one of them. While there's no general speed limit on German autobahns, even Germany has speed limits elsewhere and even on many autobahns.
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Old April 19th, 2012, 08:13 PM   #138
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I think this is a wicked way to see traffic.

Of course people entering a lane must be sure they are not cutting short a driver obliging him to make a hard braking maneuver. However, that doesn't mean a driver that is him/herself restrained to a speed below the maximum/reccomended in the right lane because of slower traffic must not overtake this slower traffic because someone wants to drive even faster on the left lane!!!

I will use the following example, again:

2 lane Autobahn, heavy, but not congested, traffic

- right lane: pack of trucks, buses and RVs going at 90-100km/h

- left lane: semi-empty, with some drivers going 160km/h

if I'm stuck behind an RV at 100, I can enter the left lane provided I'm not cutting into a fast car putting him beyond the safety distance. However, if a car is like 400m behind, and I enter the fast lane, the other drive MUST slow down so to keep a safe distance while I overtake a train or RVs and trucks at 120-130km/h.

What I don't agree is with this presumption that if you can't drive as fast as the fastest car on the left lane, and the right is full, you should "make way" by slowing yourself down below the limit/recommended by pulling over to the right lane.
That is something else, I understand if traffic doesn't allow going faster...

I only really travel through Germany in the late hours so the picture in my mind is a nearly empty Autobahn. And what springs to mind is that while Germans correctly use their mirrors, Dutch often don't.

Imho any courteous driver tries not be be in the way of faster drivers, if I notice someone on my bumper I increase my speed as obviously I'm annoying someone. That is my opinion and I'll always keep driving like this. I try not to be in anyone way, because I know how annoying it is if you're the one in a hurry.

Quote:
Traffic is not a field where you should express your liberty and do whatever you want. Traffic is already full of rules for decades and speed limit is just one of them. While there's no general speed limit on German autobahns, even Germany has speed limits elsewhere and even on many autobahns.
But they also have many autobahns which still don't. And the limits they do have are FAR more reasonable than the Dutch limits, and the fines are A LOT smaller. What I'm trying to say is that the speed limits we have here in Holland are clearly the idea of some people high on Marijuana... It's anti car terrorism here, the speed limits, the ridiculous fines, the ridiculous high taxes and fuel duty, the extreme high parking fees (5 € per hour in some places) and ''duurzaam veilig'' which means perfectly good 80 km/h and 50 km/h roads get downgraded to 60km/h and 30km/h and ****ed up with speedbumps everywhere. 80 km/h zones on motorways around big cities ( luckily being phased out by the current government, thank god, morons who brought it in), anti car furniture (concrete blocks or pillars everywhere), etcetc. I'm just taking a dig against anti car measures in general and a speed limit is that imho.
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Old April 19th, 2012, 08:19 PM   #139
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I don't think a speed limit is anti-car per se. Many speed limits in Europe are fairly reasonable, the Netherlands indeed being an exception in many cases. I have no problems with a 130 km/h general motorway speed limit, as long as there is not excessive fining. If law enforcement takes itself and traffic safety serious, they should not focus speed checks on motorways. Only 4% of the Dutch traffic fatalities occur on motorways.
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Old April 19th, 2012, 09:34 PM   #140
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IMO Germany is not a good country to be without speed limit on motorways. Amount of traffic is way too high on most of them. A better country for that would be f.e. Poland.
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