India's military build up

[AdmiralAnthony]

Originally Posted by MeMumbaikar

and what makes you so sure that indian air force does not have the capability to reach those choke points? Especially from its western flank

Because the distance is not viable for long duration action nor does the distance allow for quick reaction. You'd need a carrier group stationed in the area.

The Indian navy does not want to project beyond the range it cannot be covered by its airforce. We have the advantage of being located near the choke points as you mentioned.[/QUOTE]

Then you'l never be a superpower if all you can do is defend your back yard.

[Hoskins]

To be fair, India plus its "back yard" is several times the size of Europe...

[MeMumbaikar]

Originally Posted by AdmiralAnthony

The Indian navy does not want to project beyond the range it cannot be covered by its airforce. We have the advantage of being located near the choke points as you mentioned.

Then you'l never be a superpower if all you can do is defend your back yard.[/QUOTE]

Because the distance is not viable for long duration action nor does the distance allow for quick reaction. You'd need a carrier group stationed in the area.

lets see 2000km at mach 2 plus a supersonic brahmos missile is hmm i would say quick.

and of-course its viable for the sorties, its well within combat range. Especially the Su-50 being developed and being armed with Nirbhay or Brahmos Mach 2.




and your right, the doctrine from 2010-2030 is exactly that. Defending our backyard. Which is exactly why most european nations want to sell weapons to us cause they know that.

(a) India does not have designs to project power beyond these two areas.

(b) India does not reverse engineer technology bought like some other nations.

(c) The probability of a clash with India and europe are slim.


To be honest with you all this superpower thing is overplayed.

[MeMumbaikar]

Originally Posted by desertswo

IF the Su-50 pans out in another decade or so, you will have an airplane that will just reach Bandar Abbas from Mumbai, or there abouts, right at the outer edge of its combat radius. So, how much loiter time will they have on top? That's right; zero.


Neither the Su-27 nor the Su-30 have the range, unrefueled, to get within a satisfactory launch box for BrahMos; assuming it does what is advertised.


That is a concept that was proven nonviable in WWII. While it is true one should never fight the last war, there are never the less some lessons learned; that was one of them. Meanwhile, the Indian Air Force currently has six tankers in its inventory, of which two will typically be tits up and used for ready service spare parts (this happens in every air force; US Air Force by comparison has over 500 such aircraft), and one would assume you would have two out west, and two in the east. Not enough, so unless you can tell me about where their bed down areas are, where they will orbit, when or if crew rest for both attack and tanker crews as well as engine hours will be exceeded and thereby affect number of sorties per day, there is no way one can do cyclic ops in a way that facilitates power projection from India.

Again, I used to do this stuff for a living. I'm not trying to ruin your whole day. I am just making a point learned from the school of hard knocks, that there is more to power projection than just cool looking fighter planes.

the base will be bhuj, and it will reach to the end of the persian gulf (distance is 2000 km to the end) . There is a good reason they are heavily developing that. Airforce does not operate from mumbai. It operates further inland from Pune.

Su-30MKI most certainly does have the range from Bhuj. It has a ferry range of 3500km and a combat radius of 1800km. That again means most of the gulf is covered.. On top of which though its an Su-30 in name, its features are more alike to Su-35 which gives it a greater range.

On top of which our major suppliers and KSA UAE Iran. The ports which which these guys deliver to us or more importantly to our refinery in Jamnagar. Further to which more suppliers will come from Oman in the future especially from Muscat, which will also mean UAE sending crude via there. All these operations and the ports from which we get supplies are within a 1500km radius from bhuj.

Further to which our air defence ships (or one). will be patrolling 1000km from the indian coast, will also consist of the Mig29s (combat radius some 800-1000km) who will also have the range to attack.


The Su-50 will be inducted at the same time when we get our two newly built carriers. Its not as if the indian navy is sitting on a few carriers. Gorshkov is a stop gap to replace an ageing Virat. A poor stop gap and a much delayed one i will admit. But a stop gap none the less.


and maybe you should stick to talking technical stuff.For all you know i could be someone working in DRDO with a military background. Its not as if your the only one in the world who has some background. So lets stop this childish stuff of look at me and my experience. Its the internet. I most certainly dont mind being proven wrong. I come hear to debate and learn new things.

[alphaxion]

You missed the point of desertswo. a range of 3500km.. Which means if the target is 2000km in one direction you cannot make it without refueling lines, of which your tiny fleet of refueling planes will not be able to service.

If something is 1500km away that leaves fuel for 500km between flying there and back if you use every last drop. Operational warfare suggests that fuel capacity will not directly translate into the theoretical limit as you will have fuel waste and a need for reserves to combat natural variances in environment and as a backup in case something unplanned happens.

I would say the real range those planes could comfortably manage without putting the pilot in danger and without the supply lines to extend it to about 2000km there and back. Essentially a range of 1000km, 1500km at a stretch.

Really long sortes require exceptionally expensive supply infrastructure and dramatically reduced sorte rates - look at the costs and sorte rates of the UK during the Libya campaign and compare them with France who had a carrier in the region.

Your idea of power projection is unworkable and hideously expensive. Which is exactly the argument many of us had against the way our government conducted the Libya campaign and why most of us support blue water carrier groups.

[MeMumbaikar]

It is expensive no doubt. But obviously it will be used in cojunction with the navy. Its a real option. Does not mean we will only rely on it. As i said before even the Mig29s of the carrier will have the range and obviously the destroyers. Not to mention the air defence ships will be armed with the 1000 Nirbhay SAM. Floating 1000km from the indian coastline on the western flank will bring that missile into play.

The Su-30MKI has been tested many times in russia can easily has a combat radius of 1800km. Its not a theoretical. That is the range in which it can fight within its comfort zone. Pushing itself it has a range of 2000km.


I would also like to point out that even the Rafales we are getting too have a theoretical combat range of 1850km. Realistically even they can reach many of our block points within a 1500km from bhuj.

[alphaxion]

But with nature constantly showing us who is in charge, that limit will be much lower in reality - conditions in Russia are quite different to those further south of it, you can't take it as being directly transferable. Plus, you need fuel to conduct combat once you reach your combat zone. If you push it to the theoretical max without a support infrastructure in place your chances of losing both the pilot and plane go up by orders of magnitude.

Your enemy only has to loiter around closer to their bases and wait for you to fatigue before pushing ahead uncontested.

[MeMumbaikar]

Originally Posted by alphaxion

But with nature constantly showing us who is in charge, that limit will be much lower in reality. Plus, you need fuel to conduct combat once you reach your combat zone. If you push it to the theoretical max without a support infrastructure in place your chances of losing both the pilot and plane go up by orders of magnitude.

Your enemy only has to loiter around closer to their bases and wait for you to fatigue before pushing ahead uncontested.

Look, obviously there are not going to be dog fights or dog fights will be avoided. The aim is to use the brahmos/missiles and then come back. The Brahmos is accurate enough to cause the needed damage. The aim is to destroy targets. Not gain air superiority and aid our missile destroyers.

Secondly as i said before, the 1800km has been tested in various circumstances. The Indian air force is very confident in this. It forms the range not only for the gulf but also for targeting cities like chengdu in case of war. They have done their home work on this.

You talk about power projection for eg, India does not have the luxury of US aircraft carriers. These things are air bases in their own right. What exactly is an Indian aircraft carrier going to achieve in power projection in the congested gulf? We will simply end up losing it in a confrontation.

[MeMumbaikar]

I guess my question to all will be

How would you use the Gorshkov (a carrier group for eg) to project power in the gulf to protect Indian oil supplies from an adversary say for eg a china with an aircraft carrier.

Waiting your your replies. Especially my American friend.

With what you have at the Indian navy's disposal now and in the next 8 years whats the best bet.

[AdmiralAnthony]

Originally Posted by MeMumbaikar

Look, obviously there are not going to be dog fights or dog fights will be avoided. The aim is to use the brahmos/missiles and then come back. The Brahmos is accurate enough to cause the needed damage. The aim is to destroy targets. Not gain air superiority and aid our missile destroyers.

Secondly as i said before, the 1800km has been tested in various circumstances. The Indian air force is very confident in this. It forms the range not only for the gulf but also for targeting cities like chengdu in case of war. They have done their home work on this.

You talk about power projection for eg, India does not have the luxury of US aircraft carriers. These things are air bases in their own right. What exactly is an Indian aircraft carrier going to achieve in power projection in the congested gulf? We will simply end up losing it in a confrontation.

Mate all your comments are incorrect because you've failed to include combat
operational requirements. Your airforce jets are not going for a fucking tour of Arabia to sight see, you're at war!
Sure as hell Pakistan will not allow you to overfly their airspace and you avoid close proximity to Iran initially to avoid being targeted by SAM's and their airforce. This means you'l have to fly over Oman and possibly UAE before heading due north to Hormuz and Bandar Abbas. Then once you get there your airforce will get 'lit up' and you'll expend a lot of fuel potentially having to evade Iranian defence systems. Then you have to fly back the same way you came, the different route will probs only add 4-500km or so but with combat tactics over hostile airspace your airforce does not have suitable re-fuelling capabilities to sustain the kind of high intensity combat missions you'd need to fly in order to achieve your objectives.

[AXISPAW]

Originally Posted by MeMumbaikar

Look, obviously there are not going to be dog fights or dog fights will be avoided.

Oh yeah because Iran will just sit back and let you bomb the shit out of them.

[AdmiralAnthony]

Originally Posted by AXISPAW

Oh yeah because Iran will just sit back and let you bomb the shit out of them.

No airforce pilots or airforce chief of staff will allow their pilots to undertake combat missions if there is unnessecary risk to the pilot and jet.
Therefore mission sorties will only take place if there is a system in place to reduce risk.

Due to geographical, political and military considerations the IAF would have to fly due west out in to the ocean and then turn right fly over Oman and Dubai before proceeding with their bombing runs. Then return the same route making sure their is sufficient fuel to offset combat action or any delays.

This mission route can only be achieved with tanker support or by landing in Oman or Dubai to re-fuel and/or re-arm. Ideally you'd need to base your aircraft out of Oman/Dubai in order to be effective.

[invincibletiger]

Why are we discussing Iran here? If we are at war, its surely won't be against Iran. They are one of our largest fuel suppliers. In fact I initially thought this discussion about Strait of Hormuz was on how to protect the oil supply coming from Iran.

And even in the case, of a war with Iran joining a already started war, somebody else (and stronger) will take care of that.

[desertswo]

Originally Posted by invincibletiger

Why are we discussing Iran here? If we are at war, its surely won't be against Iran. They are one of our largest fuel suppliers. In fact I initially thought this discussion about Strait of Hormuz was on how to protect the oil supply coming from Iran.

And even in the case, of a war with Iran joining a already started war, somebody else (and stronger) will take care of that.

Except that the stronger power taking care of that problem might in fact precipitate the interruption of the flow of oil from the Gulf. Things could get rather interesting when conflicting interests come into play.

[dean43]

Soooo why is india attacking iran again?

China today doesn't have the long-range capability to sustain wars and they are due to pass the US as the largest economy and have much more cash to spare to modernize their military than india.

[desertswo]

Originally Posted by dean43

Soooo why is india attacking iran again?

China today doesn't have the long-range capability to sustain wars and they are due to pass the US as the largest economy and have much more cash to spare to modernize their military than india.

"Attacking Iran" wasn't the point, although it is clear that a lot of us got wrapped around the axle solely from the standpoint of the operational range of certain aircraft. The point was the ability, or not, to project power. If the free flow of petroleum products, whether crude or refined, at market prices is one of the pillars of a nation-state's national security strategy, and it is with regard to most of the Western nations and those emerging nations like India and China, then controlling the SLOCs and their choke points, regardless of what other nation-state(s) may threaten them, becomes a major concern. The US, or some coalition may decide to close the Straights of Hormuz and/or Malacca for reasons that seem good to them. Ergo, that ability of India to force the Straights might become paramount in the grand strategy of India, Pakistan, etc., etc.

[SO143]

Originally Posted by LondonFox

Yes.

Type 45 Destroyer. U/C and In Service.


Type 26 Frigate. Advanced Planning stages - soon U/C


The Queen Elizabeth Class Super Aircraft Carrier. U/C
(While not a stealth ship, it employs many stealth features to reduce its cross section drastically. It will also carry up to 45 stealth F-35 fighters.)


Astute Class Nuclear Sub. U/C and in Service.
(Probably, with the latest American subs, the most deadly stealth vessel on the planet).




Not to mention the many other subs in the Royal Navy, like Vanguard class, Trafalgar Class etc.

[nutcracker01]

Originally Posted by MeMumbaikar

Look, obviously there are not going to be dog fights or dog fights will be avoided. The aim is to use the brahmos/missiles and then come back. The Brahmos is accurate enough to cause the needed damage. The aim is to destroy targets. Not gain air superiority and aid our missile destroyers.

to say that indian navy will use destroyers or iaf for projecting power....is as absurd as saying mortars are ideal and preferred weapons for strategic bombardment for indian army..........indian navy as stated by admirals from the beginning of the millennia plans to be a blue water navy....and as any rookie would tell you blue water navy's project power through CVBG's (carrier battle groups).......
as admiral Mehta once said: "With India's rapid growth, the Navy has a much bigger role to play now, much more to contribute to the nation's strength, the goal is to transform Indian Navy into a truly blue-water Navy with strategic reach to operate from Africa's eastern coast right up to Malacca Straits. A satellite networked-force with maritime surveillance capabilities to keep tabs on the entire Indian Ocean Region.".....
WELL....one more thing there is only one use of a aircraft carrier....to project power to dominate and to attack.....for air defence role destroyers with medium to long range missiles do the job more efficiently and at fraction of the cost....and destroyers are poor man's power projection tools....aircraft carriers on the other hand are real deal...

[nutcracker01]

there are going to be no dogfights are you kidding me?....for all the missions aircrafts have to carry extra fuel load in order to have decent amount of time to maneuver, dogfight or to run away from other fighters or from anti-aircraft defence systems....its very risky to carry out surgical strikes in Middle east with IAF fleet as its very easy to take down refuelling aircraft in hostile airspace...and once refuelling craft is down...it becomes a suiside mission where aircraft may have to land in enemy territory....and be dependent on there hostility...... Indian navy admirals have a deep and growing admiration for USN and they are trying to emulate to some extent there strategy for transforming Indian Navy into a potent blue-water force.

[nutcracker01]

Originally Posted by AdmiralAnthony

Mate all your comments are incorrect because you've failed to include combat
operational requirements. Your airforce jets are not going for a fucking tour of Arabia to sight see, you're at war!
Sure as hell Pakistan will not allow you to overfly their airspace and you avoid close proximity to Iran initially to avoid being targeted by SAM's and their airforce. This means you'l have to fly over Oman and possibly UAE before heading due north to Hormuz and Bandar Abbas. Then once you get there your airforce will get 'lit up' and you'll expend a lot of fuel potentially having to evade Iranian defence systems. Then you have to fly back the same way you came, the different route will probs only add 4-500km or so but with combat tactics over hostile airspace your airforce does not have suitable re-fuelling capabilities to sustain the kind of high intensity combat missions you'd need to fly in order to achieve your objectives.

well said!....just to add that even with tankers for any air-force it would be unacceptably high risk to conduct a operation that far away from a friendly base...CV's are the only option