GLASGOW | Subway and Urban Rail

[sds]

Originally Posted by Dobbo

Thanks - integration is why the London Underground is so sucessful - is there really no desire for a new line?

Desire, sure, but not much political desire. We do have a very strong infrastructure, if only we tied it together a little better.

[flierfy]

The suburban services on national rail in Strathclyde are all very well to a certain point. But the non-systematic station spacing as well as the awkward scheduling of services leaves a lot left to be desired. The latter is certainly a result of track sharing with long distance services which is always a bit of a deficiency.

A cross city tunnel linking the rail lines terminating in Central and Queen Street would be a good addition. Such a scheme could tackle most of the shortcomings listed above. Yet, this link is as unlikely to be built as it is expansive, unfortunately.

[sds]

Originally Posted by flierfy

The suburban services on national rail in Strathclyde are all very well to a certain point. But the non-systematic station spacing as well as the awkward scheduling of services leaves a lot left to be desired. The latter is certainly a result of track sharing with long distance services which is always a bit of a deficiency.

A cross city tunnel linking the rail lines terminating in Central and Queen Street would be a good addition. Such a scheme could tackle most of the shortcomings listed above.

In what way does it resolve the shortcomings? Genuine question. Not sure what you're envisioning here.

Awkward service scheduling can be tricky in some locations once you move away from the shared lines. Frequencies are reasonable in a lot of places, but not quite turn-up-and-go, which I guess is what you're getting at.

Out of interest, I took a quick look at departures to GLC or GLQ from a handful of stations around the city:

• East: At Rutherglen I see six trains to central in the next hour, with a maximum spacing of 14 minutes.
  
• East: At Bellgrove, I see six trains to queen street in the next hour, with a maximum spacing of fifteen minutes.
  
• West: At Partick I see fourteen trains to central/queen street in the next hour, with a maximum spacing of 6 minutes.
  
• West: Anniesland has ten trains departing to central/queen street in the next hour. Maximum of eight minute spacing.
  
• West: Clydebank has four trains departing to central/queen street. Nice 15 minute cycle.
  
• South: At Cathcart, there are four in the next hour, spaced 14-16 minutes apart. Mount Florida has a bonus fifth train wedged in to the cycle.
  
• South: Crossmyloof also has four trains this next hour, but with an awkward 10/20/10/20 wait cycle.
  
• North: Maryhill is down at two per hour, half hour spacing. But, this is an annoying line that would ideally run as a loop, but for the fact that if the train continued south from Anniesland it would be routed into queen street low-level. Would be nice if they ran a larger loop that ran both directions round Maryhill - Partick - Queen Street LL - High Street - Duke Street - Springburn - Ashfield (calling all intermediate stations, of course). Wonder if the capacity bottleneck here is Partick.
  
• As for the subway, it's great when it's running one train every four minutes. It's dire when it's running one train every twelve minutes.

I'll tell you what though: the national rail app I have on my Android phone is amazing. It has a live departures board I can check on the way down to the station. Guesswork, begone!

[Kolothos]

I downloaded the DB Navigator app while in Germany. I was please you surprised to see that it works here in Glasgow too :p

Works just as well as the ScotRail app.

[Kolothos]

Another great failing of Glasgow's rail network is the fact that very little of the original Victorian station architecture of the Central and District railways (now the Argyle and North Clyde lines), and the Subway, actually still remains.

One of the things that makes the London Underground so attractive, is the fantastic looking stations that nod to the origins of the London we see today, especially on the Circle and District lines.

I'd absolutely love for the Low Level and Subway stations to be stripped back to the original features, and restored. It's a great shame that many examples of Victorian Glasgow, when it's importance was only second to London, have been demolished, or hidden away, often replaced with cheap 'modern' equivalents that last about five years before starting to look dated and shabby.

[flierfy]

Originally Posted by sds

In what way does it resolve the shortcomings? Genuine question. Not sure what you're envisioning here.

Something like this:



It would create a proper link between the two remaining mainline termini in Glasgow. It would also free plenty of capacity at these termini and provide better connections to the metro line at two stations.

[sds]

Originally Posted by flierfy

Something like this:



It would create a proper link between the two remaining mainline termini in Glasgow. It would also free plenty of capacity at these termini and provide better connections to the metro line at two stations.

But if the shortcoming is the longer lines with suburban services, and this presumably encourages more of those, no?

In principle I'd love there to be a reasonable link between the two stations. I just always have a hard time envisioning which services would be punted onto those new lines.

[Kolothos]

This is how I personally would do it. Yes, you can call me a gonk for making a map like this. But I'm just keeping the graphic design skills sharp! The map is incomplete, but you'll get the jist.


Essentially:

- Create three new Subway lines from existing and disused railway alignments and tunnels, with some short sections of new tunnels (or street running Metrolink style).
- Rerouting of Argyle Line services to Queen Street LL, reinstate the other two platforms at Queen Street LL, reinstate the Bridgeton-High Street link to continue Argyle Line services towards Dalmarnock.
- Reopening and electrification of the City Union line. Quadruple tracked between Bridgegate and Gorbals Cross to carry the new Subway lines and ScotRail services over the Clyde.
- Link between the City Union at Bridgegate and the Argyle Line at Argyle Street. This will involve some demolition works and cut/cover tunnelling works.
- Reinstatement of the railway line along the north bank of the Clyde towards Clydebank.
- Reinstatement of the tunnel between the SECC and botanics.
- Short section of deep tunnel/street running between Paisley Canal and Paisley Gilmour Street to link in with the fourth new Subway line, running between Glasgow Airport and Cartyne.

[Kolothos]

Subway modernisation:

Originally Posted by M_Riaz

[Kolothos]

Not Subway, or Urban Rail, but worth a mention, at least. I know there are some folks on here who will find some interest in this.

Buses in Greater Glasgow:


While we have the Subway and the large rail network, the majority of urban movements are made using the bus. Evolving out of the cities expansive tram network, the city has an extremely expansive bus network.
image hosted on flickr

Like most UK cities (bar the capitals: London, Edinburgh, Cardiff and Belfast), Bus services are run by private companies, with no forms of franchising or regulation in place. This means that there are many different bus companies with different ticketing schemes, route numbers and liveries operating within Glasgow, which can make things quite confusing - for example, the First Bus 23 route is a completely different route to the McGill's 23 route, yet both run through central Glasgow.

The majority of services are run by First Group, who employ a large fleet of double and single decker buses across the city. Large capacity triple axle and hybrid buses can be seen working the very crowded 44, 75 and 66 routes.

SPT do run some bus services where there is no private services available. SPT also run the regions bus stations, most notably Buchanan Bus Station in Glasgow, the largest in Scotland, and an important hub for local bus and long distance coach services to northern Scotland and the south.

£40m is currently being spent on the initial phase of a BRT network in west Glasgow. 'Fastlink' as it will be known (a name previously used for Edinburgh's section of pre-tram busway) will initially provide a service between the city centre and the brand new South Glasgow Super Campus Hospital via Pacific Quay and Govan. The plan is to introduce a franchising method, wherin an operator will run the Fastlink buses on behalf of the SPT (like with bus services in London). Fastlink will be integrated with the Glasgow Subway through the yet to be announced Glasgow SPT smart card.

In the next few years, the SPT will be looking to introduce a bus franchising system across the whole network, to run buses in a similar manner to London, by introducing quality contracts. The aim would be to create unified and integrated ticketing, along with a Glasgow Bus brand identity to sit alongside Subway and Fastlink.

[Kolothos]

Hyndland - Argyle Line / North Clyde Line

[sds]

Originally Posted by Kolothos

The majority of services are run by First Group, who employ a large fleet of double and single decker buses across the city. Large capacity triple axle and hybrid buses can be seen working the very crowded 44, 75 and 66 routes.

Regarding the First Group's bus network, they do produce nice maps:
http://www.firstgroup.com/ukbus/glas...etwork_Map.pdf
http://www.firstgroup.com/ukbus/glas...Centre_map.pdf

Pretty sure I once saw an SPT map that covered all the private bus routes in the city and surrounding areas. Alas, I cannot find it...

[Kolothos]

Oooh, very nice map indeed.

First have been rolling out this new livery all over the UK. Still awful though. The buses should be liveried in the traditional public transport colours of the city, imo.
image hosted on flickr


In the 80s and 90s, it was Strathclyde Buses, and their 'Strathclyde Red', which was used across the Underground (as it was known then), the Urban Rail lines and the buses.


..and even before that, the green and amber of the Glasgow Corporation, and later the Greater Glasgow and Strathclyde PTE.



*all pictures bar the top from http://glasgowtransport.co.uk/glasgowbuses.html

[Tom Hughes]

Originally Posted by Kolothos

Not Subway, or Urban Rail, but worth a mention, at least. I know there are some folks on here who will find some interest in this.

Buses in Greater Glasgow:


While we have the Subway and the large rail network, the majority of urban movements are made using the bus. Evolving out of the cities expansive tram network, the city has an extremely expansive bus network.
image hosted on flickr

Like most UK cities (bar the capitals: London, Edinburgh, Cardiff and Belfast), Bus services are run by private companies, with no forms of franchising or regulation in place. This means that there are many different bus companies with different ticketing schemes, route numbers and liveries operating within Glasgow, which can make things quite confusing - for example, the First Bus 23 route is a completely different route to the McGill's 23 route, yet both run through central Glasgow.

The majority of services are run by First Group, who employ a large fleet of double and single decker buses across the city. Large capacity triple axle and hybrid buses can be seen working the very crowded 44, 75 and 66 routes.
.

What's the capacity of these buses? There are a few routes in Liverpool that could use these..... especially in rush hrs.

[Kolothos]

Not too sure, but quite large capacity. We have these newer ones too.. Also massive in length!
image hosted on flickr


Very large buses. And they are still being used to full capacity during the morning rush.

Glasgow does have a very strong bus fleet. Plenty of ex-London buses are used on various routes too. I'd have thought Liverpool would have such buses already in use?

[Kolothos]

Queen's Park - Cathcart Circle Lines

[geogregor]

Originally Posted by Kolothos

Not too sure, but quite large capacity. We have these newer ones too.. Also massive in length!
image hosted on flickr


Very large buses. And they are still being used to full capacity during the morning rush.

Glasgow does have a very strong bus fleet. Plenty of ex-London buses are used on various routes too. I'd have thought Liverpool would have such buses already in use?

It must take ages for passengers to embark/disembark via only one front door. Why so many British cities outside London opt for such configuration?

[Kolothos]

I really don't know, but I think in London, it's regulation to have a double door configuration, as bus operators run services to requirements by TfL. Wheras in all other cities, bus operators can do what they like, and having the single door prevents fare evasion.

You can easily tell an ex-London bus in Glasgow. The bus I took to Bridge Street Subway this morning clearly had it's second set of doors removed at some point, it had the side sections, and dodgy sized windows in place, and the stairs to the upper deck were placed further down the bus. It was used as an extra standing/pram area.

[geogregor]

Originally Posted by Kolothos

I really don't know, but I think in London, it's regulation to have a double door configuration, as bus operators run services to requirements by TfL. Wheras in all other cities, bus operators can do what they like, and having the single door prevents fare evasion.

I can't imagine that fare evasion would be such a problem. Somehow two door configuration works in London where drivers clearly see if someone enters through the back door. So why not in other cities?

I have suspicion that it is yet another example of the "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" nonsense. The one door policy was used for years so no one can't be bothered to change it. Even when it could shorten the passenger exchange times and overall journey times, especially on busy routes with many stops.

[Kolothos]

Originally Posted by geogregor

I have suspicion that it is yet another example of the "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" nonsense. The one door policy was used for years so no one can't be bothered to change it. Even when it could shorten the passenger exchange times and overall journey times, especially on busy routes with many stops.

I think you may be right there. That attitude is very strong in terms of public transport in Glasgow.

The only buses that do have an exit door in Glasgow are the few bendy buses that operate in the city. They have a button and a gate to exit, to stop people jumping in.image hosted on flickr


The new Fastlink bus network should hopefully include buses with double doors. It's unclear at the moment as to what sort of bus we will get. Initially we were meant to get these:


But recent news seems to suggest otherwise. SPT will develop a brand for the new rapid bus network in line with the Subway, so it's a first step towards a more London way of running the buses in Glasgow.