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Old August 8th, 2013, 10:59 AM   #441
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So I understand that most Poles do not appreciate Long Market or Mariacka streets in Gdansk (at least 50% of buildings along these streets are not faithful reconstructions), Poznan (Merchants' Houses, "Gothic" archcathedral or most buildings at the square are just after-war designs), historic sites of Olsztyn, Wroclaw Market Square, Opole Market Square, and many, many more...even Krakow (major restorations of Wawel Royal Castle and Sukiennice in the 19th century, tomb of Wladyslaw III Warnenczyk from 1903, etc.).

"Disneyland" in Gdansk, Poznan and Krakow...






And Wroclaw Old Town with modern architecture...
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Old August 8th, 2013, 11:45 AM   #442
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I do not speak for all Poles in terms of these reconstructed buildings. Of course not all of them are bad, and many rebuilt streets are charming and very good looking, but in MY opinion these are still not strictly "historical". Another example is The Royal Castle in Warsaw. As much as I would like to think of it as a pretty good example of reconstruction ... it is NOT.

If You look for old pictures and drawings of this castle in warsaw You will notice that it is clumsy and out of proportion. Many windows do not line up with eachother and deffinately do not match what used to be there. Another thing is that there are now (after the post-war reconstruction) MORE towers, than we had before, and at the same time LESS details on the exterior of the castle.

Maybe people who are mot that much into detailed digging through archives will never notice that difference, but IMO if it's not going to look like the original, than wat is the point of reconstruction in the first place?

Examples:
http://hale67.w.staszic.waw.pl/historia.jpg
VERSUS THIS ONE:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...3%B3lewski.jpg

Notice that:
- Much steeper roof and missing details on the top of elevation where the roof meets the wall.
- Front wall is much more massive in comparison to the tower now.
- Top floor windows are much smaller and out of proportion with the lower floor
- Windows neat the tower are misplaced
- "Suddenly some wild towers appear"

And so on ... but You get the point
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Old August 8th, 2013, 12:27 PM   #443
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Let's clear out smth - castle in Poznań is NOT a reconstruction.
It's a historical lie built for making money.
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Old August 8th, 2013, 12:28 PM   #444
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zamaszysty View Post
in MY opinion these are still not strictly "historical"
And who says they are? I still don't fully understand your way of thinking. Do you really think that Gdańsk Main Town should be left in ruins (photo below) or filled with modern crap, because there was genuinely accurate documentation to reconstruct maybe 10-20% of all buildings?



Gdansk, Poznan, Olsztyn, Opole, etc. All these cities have been completely destroyed during WW2 and they were rebuilt mostly in historicist fashion.

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Old August 8th, 2013, 12:39 PM   #445
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To be honest, there is no simple answer. As I said ... there is NO POINT in rebuilding these buildings if You have no way to do an exact recontruction that would keep all the atributes that the original had. In Gdańsk I bet many houses are only an "immagining" of how they should look like, but at the same time they were rebuilt VERY SOON after their destruction, and it is infinately more likely that they look now very much like the original.

On the other hand we have Poznań with it's castle rebuilt LOOOONG after it was lost with NO surviving citizens that could remember any details, no plans and no photographs, and that is a completely different situation that takes it to a whole new level of "complete fairytale". We could as well just rebuild many non-existing castles in Europe just by estimation of the "average look" of a castle in that period and area, but it's not quite the same castle at all as an effect, right?
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Old August 8th, 2013, 12:53 PM   #446
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zamaszysty View Post
it is infinately more likely that they look now very much like the original
Here's an example from Gdańsk (Long Market, one of the most notable tourist attractions of the city)...




Shortly after the war...


How many faithful reconstructions do you see?
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Old August 8th, 2013, 01:04 PM   #447
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the streets look so clean and peaceful..what a beautiful place to live in..
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Old August 8th, 2013, 01:06 PM   #448
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IMO the general mood of the place is kept, as in this case it's not about the architecture of individual buildings themselves. And still all details are much closer to what was there in the first place than in the example of The Castle in Warsaw. And jow many of these are faithful? At least 50% are extremely well executed, and rest are pretty much close to what was there. It's not like they suddenly added an extra tower here and there just because ...
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Old August 8th, 2013, 01:24 PM   #449
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Quote:
IMO the general mood of the place is kept
And that is why historic sites should be rebuilt in historicist styles. Naturally, only in situation when accurate documentation required for reconstruction doesn't exist.

Quote:
And how many of these are faithful? At least 50% are extremely well executed, and rest are pretty much close to what was there.
4-5 houses out of 12 are pretty close to what was there. Of course, they have slightly different facades, different exterior colours, extra sgraffitos, layouts inside, buildings are shorter, etc.

7-8 buildings have just historicist facades designed by architects after the war to match the atmosphere of the place.

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Old August 8th, 2013, 01:26 PM   #450
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Let's thank the people that made it possible to rebuild the cities, more or less accurate. Or we would just have commieblocks everywhere. Like previously said, the castle in Poznan indeed has no historic foundation in terms of its looks.

Poland had almost no money after the war, had no marshall funding and yet that generation succeeded in at least bringing some of the glory back after the war.
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Old August 8th, 2013, 03:24 PM   #451
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
And that is why historic sites should be rebuilt in historicist styles. Naturally, only in situation when accurate documentation required for reconstruction doesn't exist.
I would argue here. You can create a nice place with a great style and mood in it also by mixing old with new. Of course it requires a lot MORE effort to make the "new" mix with the "old" properly, but there are some examples for sure. Let me just bring one from my city, Bydgoszcz, first:

Modernism put in line with older buildings:

(from akamaihd.net)

Aaaaaand here:

(from Wikimedia)

Of course we can argue if Modernism is something "new" or is that already something "old" as it ended arround 1975 and is in many ways consedered one of retro styles, but that's more of a philosophical question to be hionset. Now ... let's look at these two above in context as they are now, shall we?


(from Wikimedia)
+ A different angle and different take on the same building

Aaaaand the second one, please note that in this case picture presents the building before it was renovated not that long ago.

(from Wikimedia ... again :P)

What we get here are not buildings rebuild to mimic something that was there 500 years earlier or 200 years earlier. City has to live and evolve, and every part of it has to live with it. I do agree that we have to save our cities from complete destruction and preserve what is left, but that does not mean there is only ONE good way to do it. OK, "Jedynak" (the first building) may be much bigger than its surroundings and have different proportions, but it still looks good there to most viewers.

Of course there are some acsolutely new buildings in Bydgoszcz fitted between old ones, and IMO it still works pretty fine.

Like here:
http://www.campus.poznan.pl/w_images..._by_majass.jpg
Or here:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...zmierzch_a.jpg

Anyway ... i'm not saying that ALL city centres that are rebuilt should be filled with only new architecture, but at the same time it's not like there is no other way than building only copies of old structures.

Just check build dates of old buildings (or at least the original buildings) in city centres we discuss here. In Kraków, Wrocław etc. it's not like there is one decade for all of them, quite the opposie. Two buildings standing one next to another can be built in two different decades or centuries, some are built with 300 year gap between them that only indicates that "new" is not "bad". It's only a matter of keeping it all on a certain level that would not ruin the atmosphere of a place, and fit in to "old" neighbors.

BY THE WAY:
Please visit this thread for more pictures of Bydgoszcz. It's all in polish, but since it's mostly a photo thread...
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1595104
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Old August 8th, 2013, 03:54 PM   #452
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Is it actually modern architecture? Hmmm...For me it looks rather Art Nouveau-ish.





I wouldn't mind to see "modern" buildings like the one above in other cities.

As well, this building doesn't exactly match modern architecture criterias with so many decorations...


It's a mix of modernism and Art Nouveau.
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Old August 8th, 2013, 04:23 PM   #453
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This one was built in 1913, which is the very beggining of the modernism movement in architecture. Remade once in 1922-1923 to reach it's general aesthetics we can see now, and finally the gallery on the street level was created in 1940 to give this building its current shape (maybe except these "vase" details on the very top that have been added quite recently, but i'm not sure if that's an addition or restoration). Anyway it may be classicising a lot due to it beeing build when modernism was still just a new idea, but it is a good example as it's standing next to a church built in 1582, after that there is that glass building (both visible HERE, discussed building is just left from that church), and there are also many buildings in the area that vary from XVI to XX century.

Notable mentions there:
Max's Zweininger's building, built in early XIX century, remade in 1902
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plik:By...ca_Focha_2.jpg
County Museum, built at some point in the XIV century, completely remade into its current form in 1878
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plik:Bd...9gowe_2005.jpg
Emil Werckmeisters building (just next to our discussed object), built in 1912
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plik:Ba...C5%84skiej.jpg
The Main Post Office in Bydgoszcz - built between 1883 and 1899
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plik:Po...85_09_2009.jpg
One more modernist building just next door - built in 1911 - this one has more elements that clearly suggest it's built in modern style and is not classicising in any way
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plik:Ka...eatralny_4.jpg

So just by checking all these dates You can clearly see that as years passed new buildings popped up and every single one of them is in a way different than these arround it ... I personaly find this part of town a great example of how different architectural styles from absoutely different ages can mix and interact with eachother and still remain a great combination as a whole.
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Old August 8th, 2013, 04:25 PM   #454
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zamaszysty View Post
Notable mentions there:
Max's Zweininger's building, built in early XIX century, remade in 1902
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plik:By...ca_Focha_2.jpg
County Museum, built at some point in the XIV century, completely remade into its current form in 1878
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plik:Bd...9gowe_2005.jpg
Emil Werckmeisters building (just next to our discussed object), built in 1912
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plik:Ba...C5%84skiej.jpg
The Main Post Office in Bydgoszcz - built between 1883 and 1899
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plik:Po...85_09_2009.jpg
One more modernist building just next door - built in 1911 - this one has more elements that clearly suggest it's built in modern style and is not classicising in any way
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plik:Ka...eatralny_4.jpg
Almost nothing that you've shown here is modern architecture.
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Old August 8th, 2013, 04:30 PM   #455
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Examples of early modern architecture from Wroclaw...

Market Square


Salt Market
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Old August 8th, 2013, 04:39 PM   #456
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I think You are mixing two different terms ... modernism and modern architecture. Modernism is a movement in architecture that was very popular between 1910 and 1975 (estiamtely), Your examples are postomodernism, not modernism

Quote:
Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
Almost nothing that you've shown here is modern architecture.
OF COURSE NOT!
These listed are buildings surrondung one of these modernist buildings I mentioned in the post with pictures. Pay more attention

And I almost forgot ...

on the other side of the road from that corner building there is a rather big space that is left after dirung WW2 we lost the City Theatre house. There is a massiev discussion going on now as many people want this to be rebuilt. The problem is that except it beeing a nice looking building, there would be no use for it as not far from there juyst down the stree there is a new Opera building and we already have a theatre in Bydgoszcz that was built exactly because we lost the one in the picture. The situation is now that we do not need another thatre at the moment, but at the same time there is a great need for a new building to host the Plus Camerimage Festival as it has become one of the most important movie festicals in Poland (short films awarded on the Plus Camerimage are granted consideration for Oscar awards just because winning in Bydgoszcz). The question is:
Should we try to rebuild the old building at all cost despite it would be just an empty shell that does not have its old function, or shoule we allow a futuristic or modern architecture in? Because that would be just in the very middle of that mix listed above!
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Old August 8th, 2013, 05:00 PM   #457
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Quote:
Your examples are postomodernism, not modernism
Oh, really? Buildings from 1930 (first picture) and 1920s (second picture) in Wroclaw are postmodern?

Quote:
that was very popular between 1910 and 1975
In Poland, the modern architecture became popular in the late 1920s. And before that, the main architectural style was Art Nouveau/Secesja (link).

Early modernism in pre-war Poland (Drapacz Chmur built in 1928)


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Old August 8th, 2013, 05:18 PM   #458
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Well ... wikipedia states that both of these buildings mentioned by me are built in the spirit of morednism. It's an early modernism that stillhas many atributes of previous styles, that's correct, but this still is a good example that in history buildings with new styles were guilt just nest to buildings in completely different styles, so back to my original point (as we went faaaar into the sea of offtopic :P) - rebuilding after the WW2 OR filling up empty spaces that are left up till the present day does not have to be done with historical forms and styles. Let's build with the style that is dominating modern architecture in 2013 as we speak ... in 100 or 200 years from now everybody will be looking at these buildings just the same as we look at these made in 1800's and 1900's.

And just BTW:
Yes, my bad. These two are not postmodern, but the one at Market Square could pretty much be built in the 1950's and 1960's by the looks. It's very modern even for a 1930's modernizm. Call me suprised
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Old August 8th, 2013, 05:27 PM   #459
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Quote:
Well ... wikipedia states that both of these buildings mentioned by me are built in the spirit of modernism
And wikipedia knows everything

Quote:
Let's build with the style that is dominating modern architecture in 2013 as we speak
Malbork Old Town rebuilt with the style that was dominating in the 1960s (architect - Szczepan Baum)...


And Dresden being rebuilt in old fashion...
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Old August 8th, 2013, 05:40 PM   #460
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
Early modernism in pre-war Poland (Drapacz Chmur built in 1928)
By the way:
Another great example how "new" can interat with "old" in interesting way. I love that building and how it fits in the city. It's a contrast, and I bet that in the day it was built there was a LOT of doubt if they should build it in that form exactly. And now we have a nice building (well, dirty, but still love it!) in much more historical context
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