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Old May 19th, 2012, 01:05 PM   #81
Ondro
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Well, the tallest people are registered in Guiness' Book...
And it is the same. If my hair were not supported enough, the high wind could lower my hair as the high wind could easily tear a badly supported spire. But, in extreme case, a really high wind could tear the whole skyscraper down, so what's the difference?The strenght of the wind is proportional to stability of the body. Stability of the body is the count of the work needed to unbalance the body and the work is proportional to weight of the body. The ratio between the stability of the human body and human hair in some cases can be very simmilar to the ratio between stability of spire and building. Especially in the cases of extremely tall spires.
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Old May 19th, 2012, 01:10 PM   #82
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Haha well chrysler spire is somehow still standing And while gel is not part of the body steel and concrete is definatelly part of the building. Another thing. If someone would have attached edit sorry I meant stripes to the top of the spire of burj khalifa do you thing ctbuh would consider it any taller
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Old May 19th, 2012, 01:14 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patrykus View Post
And while gel is not part of the body steel and concrete is definatelly part of the building.
There are also organic gells and if you want to be extreme, you can support your hair with your own snot
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Old May 19th, 2012, 01:18 PM   #84
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But will it be permanent if you will go wash yourself? We are getting ridiculus here. Spires are definatelly not the same as hairs

Anyway if you don't agree with architectural height you still have to present an alternative.
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Old May 19th, 2012, 01:30 PM   #85
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You just don't want to see and admit the flaws of your logic, you are lying to yourself. Offcourse spires and hairs are not the same thing, but the case of determinig height according to them is. You can not compare living thing and a building, but you can compare the means of determining their properties, because the methods have roots in the most primitive and basic methods used since the ancient times. That is the thing that differs us from the animals which thinks that if you take a stick into your hand and put it above your head you are taller and it should be affraid of you. It is the basic intelligence which allows us to distinguish between the real things and deception, illusion and fraud.

If this will continue, we will live in a world of spires and skyline of every city will be a forrest of metal sticks rising to the skies.
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Old May 19th, 2012, 01:41 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patrykus View Post
You seem to be measuring how good your systems are by how many people agreed with you I never used that argument because I don't give two flying ****s about it, I just know I use reasonable arguments. Mostly I see people who agree with you, are people getting to the subject emotionally and who stop arguing and pulling out as fast as they are shown there is so many things wrong with the systems. Actually there is just you and Kanto who still push it forward. Look at the singoone - he looks like a very reasonable and calm guy But if you wish to play who_agree_with_me the game then ok. In the group of people who finds ctbuh standards the simplest and most reasonable to use you can find guys like moderator Vito Corleone who often provides us with exclusive insights to worlds largest projects. He is clearly professional working in the business. The other one Otie, best, most professional 3d illustrator on these forums. Then we have Fury "numbers guy" There is nobody on this forum who would follow and analyze project so thoroughly. But this is stupid you know. Just convince me you can came up with something as simple as the system that is used now. I thought you guys were so happy with your system and now you are telling me again that burj and pingang should be measured full (oh Kanto will be angry )

So I'm waiting for actual (simple) system. Because now there is no any. Just you choosing by yourself how each of the building should be measured.
And again if you can't attack the system, you attack the people. You know, there is a thing called democracy and we have far more supporters in this thread than we have opponents. Also, there was a SSC one on one poll a year ago in which official height got 15% and roof height+pinnacle height got 85%. The voice of the people should be heard even by the CTBUH.

And I disagree with classicrock that Pingan, Taipei and Khalifa should be counted 'til the top. In my opinion they all have thin steel sticks, which should be not counted. You know, just because something is simple doesn't mean it must be good. My latest proposal which combines mine and classicrock's original system is in my opinion vastly superior to the official height of CTBUH and atm I can't think of any building which could cheat it. On the other hand the official height of the CTBUH gets regularly abused by thin steel sticks. And yes, both spires and antennas are just thin steel sticks indistinguishable from each other. Ondro gave a very good example with the 2m hair. Counting hair is just as much of a nonsense as counting a steel stick. It costs a lot building a skyscraper, but building a thin steel stick is relatively cheap, therefore unfair and unequal. I think that with new materials, such as carbon nanotubes we'll gonna soon see 50% building - 50% spire regularily if CTBUH won't change its rules. Above you talked about how a complicated system might fail. It might, it might not, but I know that the CTBUH official height has already failed

Btw, Ondro, máme my vôbec slovo pre spire? Nedávno som sa to snažil preložiť a nakoniec som s privretými očami skončil pri "vrchol veže". Zdá sa, že aj Štúrovi sa zdali všetky železné paličky rovnaké
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Old May 19th, 2012, 01:49 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ondro View Post
You just don't want to see and admit the flaws of your logic, you are lying to yourself. Offcourse spires and hairs are not the same thing, but the case of determinig height according to them is. You can not compare living thing and a building, but you can compare the means of determining their properties, because the methods have roots in the most primitive and basic methods used since the ancient times. That is the thing that differs us from the animals which thinks that if you take a stick into your hand and put it above your head you are taller and it should be affraid of you. It is the basic intelligence which allows us to distinguish between the real things and deception, illusion and fraud.

If this will continue, we will live in a world of spires and skyline of every city will be a forrest of metal sticks rising to the skies.
Listen as I said many times I understand that some developers cheats with spires or with crowns (which you would probably count btw). And I like very much buildings like old wtc which goes occupied to the very top. I don't like when half of the building is empty. For example I loved nakheel tower design so much because it would reach it's height in so more honest way than burj. But the thing is you have to somehow measure them. Statistics works that way. They are not about being fair but rather more about choosing lesser evil. This is all about numbers. For example if you are recording of the human that round the earth most times you don't care if they did it in car, jet or foot. You are just registering numbers.
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Old May 19th, 2012, 01:53 PM   #88
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nemôžem, to s tým štúrom je naozaj dobré... Pre vrchol veže máme u nás(na záhorí) pomenovanie špic(klasické spire označuje strechu a špic kostola, kostolnej veže), ale to asi nie je spisovne a rozhodne by človek nepovažoval za špic tú hrôzu, ktorú chcú postaviť na WTC1, špic, ako na vianočnom stromčeku, predsa nemôže byť pomaly vyšší než stromček samotný moderné spire by som asi tiež nepreložil...

It is not the same thing as the world-traveling human and numbers and statistics are not about the lesser evil, statistics are just tool that can be used either in the realistic way or to decept people. Statistics are all about deception and false generalisation, like the survey they took in our country before building wind turbines, they asked whether would people live in the vicinity of a nuclear power plant or a wind turbine and, offcourse, they all replied they would rather live near the turbine and so the conclusion was that the most of the people is for building wind turbines
Also, it is the developer's intention to decept with false statistics, like in our country when they put a 15m tall antenna on the top of 100m tall building and said that they have the tallest building in the county and it is bigger achievement if some international organisation approves this fraud, because if it is approved, every encyclopedia and every chart gives them free advertistment. And they make money from lying to people they have the n-th tallest building in xy...
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Old May 19th, 2012, 02:23 PM   #89
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Allright guys, just PM the mods to change a name of 50% thread titles according to your hight measurement and convince the world that your measuring method is the right one. Good luck with that.
Because like I can see here, this thread solves nothing maybe just gel in hair.
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Old May 19th, 2012, 02:45 PM   #90
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oh wait a minute here Ondro still hasn't presented a method in which he would measure buidlings If they want to call mods they all have to have their ideas ready.

Future threads will look like so:

SS City | Wild Building With Wild Spire | Kanto Height X m | Kanto Height Y ft | iloveclassicrock7 height Z m | iloveclassicrock7 height A ft | Ondro Height B m | Ondro Height C ft | floors D | Status

The problem with anything different than architectural height is that anybody can came up with anything and I'm sure even three of you wouldn't get to the compromise. What I'm sure happened in ctbuh.

Ondro I'm serious (at least for the moment ) if you don't like what is now you have to propose alternative because otherwise this discussion is pointless.

Kanto I have several examples of buildings that will compromise your system easily. Forget that common sense itself is enough to recognize burj as 800m tower. Would you like me to present them?

I don't think I have to compromise iloveclassicrock7 system as I think he almost understood the problem as he himself eventually end up counting almost all spires to the height. Well he hasn't actually presented any methodology so there is nothing to compromise anyway.
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Old May 19th, 2012, 02:52 PM   #91
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I will be very happy if you present your findings
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Old May 19th, 2012, 03:17 PM   #92
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ok here we go. Which is taller:

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Old May 19th, 2012, 03:58 PM   #93
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In the case of a Burj Khalifa-like building the roof is the spot above which there is no occupied floor and above which all has a maximal dimension of 9 meters or 30 feet. I can't determine where that is from your pic, cause there is no grid behind those buildings like on the original SSP diagram which could give me a reference of how much milimeters 9 meters in that pic are. They look they are identical in width but the right one has a longer spire so I would say they are equally tall in roof height (primary height measurement) and differently tall in pinnacle height (secondary height measurement

More examples please

Also, I'd have an example for you: Which of these is the tallest and which is the shortest?

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Old May 19th, 2012, 04:05 PM   #94
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So you said they are equal in primary measurement? If someone just asked you which is taller (in primary measurement) you would say they are the same? In ctbuh rankings they would be equal? They have identical width.

Btw I guess in this case (its different) the building on the right would have to be ranked as a lower in 100 tallest than this on the left correct?

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Old May 19th, 2012, 04:25 PM   #95
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Don't try to avoid answer by vilifying and ridiculing Kanto's answer, his answer is good, but Burj Dubai is a separate case, an exception from all systems. Answer Kanto's question or you'll be just a poseur that can not answer even a simple question.
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Old May 19th, 2012, 04:38 PM   #96
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There can't be separate cases (and believe me I have more). All buildings have to be measured with one system. And I didn't answered because it is Kanto who tries to change something that works fine. I can answer if you insist though.

If you ask which building is the lowest then it is the sears because its architectural height is the lowest. If you would ask which structure is the lowest then it would be petronas which height to tip is the lowest. You see that all nomenclature is taken from and already exist in ctbuh. Now if someone would asked me why sears is the lowest I would say that antennas (equipment) are not part of the building. And that rests the case since anybody can see that sears have antenna and petronas spire. Now good luck explaining someone that the larger burj in my last post is in fact the lower one in rankings
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Old May 19th, 2012, 05:59 PM   #97
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Quote:
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There can't be separate cases (and believe me I have more). All buildings have to be measured with one system. And I didn't answered because it is Kanto who tries to change something that works fine. I can answer if you insist though.

If you ask which building is the lowest then it is the sears because its architectural height is the lowest. If you would ask which structure is the lowest then it would be petronas which height to tip is the lowest. You see that all nomenclature is taken from and already exist in ctbuh. Now if someone would asked me why sears is the lowest I would say that antennas (equipment) are not part of the building. And that rests the case since anybody can see that sears have antenna and petronas spire. Now good luck explaining someone that the larger burj in my last post is in fact the lower one in rankings
I am starting to think you work for the CTBUH. If someone told me that on that chart it's tallest from right to left, I would be like"are you blind ?"

Even me, a person who knows all about this stuff, looks at that list and thinks how the hell is federation tower the tallest ? Also my system counted the Pingan, because it covers the area under it, and it is more then 30 ft wide at the base of the spire isn't it ?

All of the burj Dubai counts, because it's part of the building, it was built like the rest, it wasn't a spire that was hoisted into place.

Unlike others, you seem like you want to stop us, so why don't you give us some time before you judge our system. Also with the Burj, you don't even have to judge it right now, it clearly is the tallest, and the Kingdom will clearly be the tallest.

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Old May 19th, 2012, 06:29 PM   #98
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Quote:
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I am starting to think you work for the CTBUH.
duh. Isn't it obvious that me and singoone are getting huuuuuge checks from ctbuh But seriously now: I don't like many things they do: like choosing this building the best skyscraper (sic!) of 2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by iloveclassicrock7 View Post
If someone told me that on that chart it's tallest from right to left, I would be like"are you blind ?"
Sears is obviously the tallest structure and ctbuh provides the number to determine that. So whats there that you don't like?

Quote:
Originally Posted by iloveclassicrock7 View Post
Even me, a person who knows all about this stuff, looks at that list and thinks how the hell is federation tower the tallest ? Also my system counted the Pingan, because it covers the area under it, and it is more then 30 ft wide at the base of the spire isn't it ? Another system is going by visual height
How do you determine where is the base of the spire. "Visualy" is not an answer.

Quote:
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Unlike others, you seem like you want to stop us, so why don't you give us some time before you judge our system. Also with the Burj, you don't even have to judge it right now, it clearly is the tallest, and the Kingdom will clearly be the tallest.
What does it mean you don't have to judge it (the burj-burj example) now? And what if you will have to judge it in 10 years then what? My examples shows clearly you can't use your systems with all buildings, because sooner or later it will led to confusions.

edit:

Quote:
Originally Posted by iloveclassicrock7 View Post
All of the burj Dubai counts, because it's part of the building, it was built like the rest, it wasn't a spire that was hoisted into place.
And who will determine that? You? You know, this rule is very far from being precise. What if the guys building seul light will call the ctbuh ask why the hell spire in their building is not counted and in pingan is? I can imagine that would be similar effort to build both spires. And what will happen if dmc developers will say it is complementary to the design and they want it to be counted?

You said it is the most important for you to make the system fair, and it turns out in many situations it still won't.
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Old May 19th, 2012, 09:27 PM   #99
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Here is the solution to this all. We make are real height figure equal to pinnacle in importance. Our architectural height is a statistical height that is meant to be fair, and then we have pinnacle which is the full height of the structure.
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Old May 20th, 2012, 01:23 AM   #100
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So you would rename architectural height to "real" and add "statistical" as architectural? That wouldn't change the rankings, and just add additional vague value of statistical height (which I don't actually get how would be calculated) so I think it wouldn't be worth the trouble to incorporate. Besides you know, notions are self explaining so I don't think you could actually name statistical height as architectural. You would have to convince people to actually use "statistical height" which I just can't imagine. But hey it's always some idea
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