daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Subways and Urban Transport

Subways and Urban Transport Metros, subways, light rail, trams, buses and other local transport systems



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old September 23rd, 2010, 10:18 PM   #781
mopc
Registered User
 
mopc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Santos Sao Paulo
Posts: 17,244
Likes (Received): 12002

User videos of the day of chaos on Tuesday

Line 3


Luz
mopc está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old September 23rd, 2010, 10:56 PM   #782
mopc
Registered User
 
mopc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Santos Sao Paulo
Posts: 17,244
Likes (Received): 12002

The shield (tunneling machine) used to excavate line 4.



source: http://tuneis.locaweb.com.br/imagens/shield.jpg

Last edited by mopc; September 23rd, 2010 at 11:28 PM.
mopc está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old September 23rd, 2010, 11:25 PM   #783
mopc
Registered User
 
mopc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Santos Sao Paulo
Posts: 17,244
Likes (Received): 12002

Artur Alvim station seen from the north access. This shows the former suburban train station that was decommissioned in 2000 when what is now line 11 was transformed from a low-quality local line with many stops to an express line with modern trains. The ghost stations were never fully demolished and can be seen to this day along the line.

Behind the ghost station you can see Artur Alvim station of line 3, built around 1987.



source: http://www.panoramio.com/photo/33251190
mopc está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old September 23rd, 2010, 11:43 PM   #784
mopc
Registered User
 
mopc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Santos Sao Paulo
Posts: 17,244
Likes (Received): 12002

Sacomã station entrance (line 2)



source: http://www.panoramio.com/photo/30949340
mopc está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old September 23rd, 2010, 11:51 PM   #785
mopc
Registered User
 
mopc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Santos Sao Paulo
Posts: 17,244
Likes (Received): 12002

Oldie but goldie: CPTM series 5500 train, built in the 60s, still alive and well in the system.



by Tchelllo
mopc está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old September 24th, 2010, 12:52 AM   #786
andreslferraz
Registered User
 
andreslferraz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: São Paulo
Posts: 284
Likes (Received): 1005

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Chaos unraveled yesterday in Sao Paulo's metro. Thousands of passengers were stranded in vehicles when a non-explained fault halt trains on the Line 3 (Red). Passengers vandalized 15 vehicles, escaped through emergency exits and brought the line to a standstill in stations, tunnels and viaducts as the line had its energy cut off to prevent electrocution is disgruntled passengers escaping through emergency exists and broken windows.

No fire or accident happens: some train couldn't leave a station, other trains behind were stranded and stopped and the whole situation started. Line 3 operates with 84 sec. peak time intervals and inhumane, hazardous and explosive 9 pax/m² occupation of its cars.

Animal protection societies would cry out loud if animals were transported in such barbaric conditions. I'll post some pictures and videos here. Public transit is not functional in less developed countries where people are not prepared to follow (and give) orders and instructions in simple situations (trains stranded inside a tunnel), or to wait for another train instead of pressing people like they were stuffing a suitcase
Good to know that only São Paulo's metro system suffers with overcrowding!
Some pics of "extremely poor and underdeveloped" Tokyo


Another city that is famous for it's "misery", New York



How about London?



And sure... why not add some more cars in São Paulo's streets? we have plenty of space!





what I mean to say is that overcrowding is very normal during rush hour, in São Paulo or any other major metropolis and im sure the city would have collapsed long ago if we didn't have any sort of public transportation!
ps: all images taken from google
andreslferraz no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 24th, 2010, 01:54 AM   #787
Martini87
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: São Paulo
Posts: 445
Likes (Received): 3

Quote:
Originally Posted by andreslferraz View Post
Very interesting of you to show this photo. The avenue shown in this picture (Radial Leste) is parallel to the subway line mentioned in the earlier posts. Now I invite anyone sympathetic to the idea of a car-centric urban planning in Brazilian metropolises (specifically SP): WHERE THE HELL WOULD YOU PUT THESE PEOPLE? SHOULD THEY REALLY BE DRIVING?
Martini87 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 24th, 2010, 02:11 AM   #788
Cedar Teeth
Caçador de pessimildos
 
Cedar Teeth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,322
Likes (Received): 636

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martini87 View Post
You contradict yourself all the time. You define yourself as a libertarian (at least your posts on the dutch suburbs thread suggest that), complaining that urban planners want to impose their opinions on people, and you basically decide that people should drive. Aren't you doing the very same thing you reject by always sabotaging transit systems and advocating for an urban style that basically forces people to drive cars?

And, specially in poor cities, investing in infrastructure for cars (like it has been done in SP in the last decades) reinforces the social inequalities and spatial segregation. Oh, I forgot you don't appear to mind about these things... Any way I feel SO MUCH happy that people like you are a very very little bitter minority, and the super right-wing-neoliberal positions you basically represent are being swept away from this country (at least in the federal level), maybe that's why you left... (oops, sorry for the pun!)

And a last thing: Encourage more people to drive cars in São Paulo at rush hour? Man, your ideology makes you sound LUNATIC at times...It seems you have never set foot here. I think these years in Wonderland (oops, I mean Europe) made you forget everything about practical life in a developing country metropolis like São Paulo. If you come and post news about problems in the metro system in order to promote your little car-centric pathetic world, I could perfectly post the news of the evergrowing congestion levels on our streets - you do know congestion levels only on the arterial roads in the central city reaches levels over 120 km basically everyday? Ahn, what about that? I think that's a much more powerful motive to scrap the private vehicle from the arterials in rush hour...
He lives in a small village in the Netherlands, thats why he thinks its more practical to drive everywhere. Its very difficult to explain to small town people how public transportation is a blessing in large cities around the world (developed or not). If he ever gets to live in a large urban area I think he will understand.
__________________
É melhor não acertar em cheio, tentando fazer o bem, do que errar feio fazendo o mal.
Cedar Teeth no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 24th, 2010, 05:37 AM   #789
mopc
Registered User
 
mopc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Santos Sao Paulo
Posts: 17,244
Likes (Received): 12002

Pics of line 3 trains with broken windows in the aftermath of last Tuesday's breakdown:





by SavianoMarcio
mopc está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old September 24th, 2010, 05:51 AM   #790
mopc
Registered User
 
mopc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Santos Sao Paulo
Posts: 17,244
Likes (Received): 12002

Itaim Paulista station, line 12, by Tiago Costa







































by felipegolfeto





mopc está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old September 24th, 2010, 05:53 AM   #791
mopc
Registered User
 
mopc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Santos Sao Paulo
Posts: 17,244
Likes (Received): 12002

pano by Tiago Costa

mopc está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old September 24th, 2010, 06:11 AM   #792
mopc
Registered User
 
mopc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Santos Sao Paulo
Posts: 17,244
Likes (Received): 12002

New hand grips for line 2 trains (by SavianoMarcio)

mopc está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old September 24th, 2010, 06:58 AM   #793
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,539
Likes (Received): 21253

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martini87 View Post
Very interesting of you to show this photo. The avenue shown in this picture (Radial Leste) is parallel to the subway line mentioned in the earlier posts. Now I invite anyone sympathetic to the idea of a car-centric urban planning in Brazilian metropolises (specifically SP): WHERE THE HELL WOULD YOU PUT THESE PEOPLE? SHOULD THEY REALLY BE DRIVING?
Simple solution: Sao Paulo needs to become so expensive to live that people can't afford and move out, leaving the city more gentrified, pushing a decline in its total population (metro area population I mean).

But it could be the other way around: a "higher-class flight" that, facing problems caused foremost by overcrowd (Brazil has PLENTY of space elsewhere), starts pulling away financial, HQs and other business that deplete the city of many indirect job positions and, again, lower the population of the city.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martini87 View Post
You contradict yourself all the time. You define yourself as a libertarian (at least your posts on the dutch suburbs thread suggest that), complaining that urban planners want to impose their opinions on people, and you basically decide that people should drive. Aren't you doing the very same thing you reject by always sabotaging transit systems and advocating for an urban style that basically forces people to drive cars?
People choose car because they are the second-best (microeconomically speaking) solution most of the time. I'm not a libertarian, libertarianism is somewhere between simplistic and idealistic and reality-detached. I'm not "deciding people should drive". I'm saying in an atomized set of individual choice decisions, "drive" will be the most likely outcome of the individual utility functions. I didn't advocate closing the subway, I said it's unrealistic to expect the middle class to join the "let's mix with the poor, let's sweat and get almost killed by suffocation so the city has less traffic".

Quote:
And, specially in poor cities, investing in infrastructure for cars (like it has been done in SP in the last decades) reinforces the social inequalities and spatial segregation.
I see it the other way. Economic inequalities (huge ones) already exist in Brazil. It is good to have a decent sort of spatial passive segregation to avoid social conflicts. For instance, when I lived in Brazil, going for entertainment in areas without connections to public transit was better because it meant, among other things, a more selective crowd would show up (the ones with cars or money to taxi). Same applies to beaches: those in urban areas served by buses get filled with people that take make-shifts kiosks and pack food in lousy foam boxes, while those more remotely accessible keep a more upbeat tone, with selling of more expensive food and so.

More important than that: sometimes the immediate reality of social inequality and income disparity is very troublesome and conflict-generating. IF you have kids travelling to Disney World every second year and kids whose parents work 60h/week to feed them playing in the same parks and walking the same streets from the same school, it will generate a hostile environment, for instance. But the kids have nothing to do with 300 years of systemic inequality and they deserve a life away from these shocks. Adults also are, normally, sensible persons. Nobody feels good shopping for überexpensive clothes next to a food bank.

Finally, the MOST important think is that by living in gated communities and heavy-guarded skyscrapers, the most well-off take charge of what (public safety) would be a State responsibility and by doing so free more resources to serve the poor.

I'm NOT advocating anything like restricting the general ability of any people to move around (gated residential-only communities and internal areas of buildings being the exception as they are not public areas in the broader sense), but to allow this natural spatial segregation (which is not binary like rich-poor) to flourish, so government can invest more heavily in public services in areas where the rich are not draining public resources to them.

Quote:
Oh, I forgot you don't appear to mind about these things... Any way I feel SO MUCH happy that people like you are a very very little bitter minority, and the super right-wing-neoliberal positions you basically represent are being swept away from this country (at least in the federal level), maybe that's why you left... (oops, sorry for the pun!)
When you see a mere political election as a battle of the good against the evil, you are either buying into simplifications sold to semi-illiterate people or you are misleading yourself in a parallel World. It's an election, not a War of Survival.

Quote:
And a last thing: Encourage more people to drive cars in São Paulo at rush hour? Man, your ideology makes you sound LUNATIC at times...It seems you have never set foot here. I think these years in Wonderland (oops, I mean Europe) made you forget everything about practical life in a developing country metropolis like São Paulo. If you come and post news about problems in the metro system in order to promote your little car-centric pathetic world, I could perfectly post the news of the evergrowing congestion levels on our streets - you do know congestion levels only on the arterial roads in the central city reaches levels over 120 km basically everyday? Ahn, what about that? I think that's a much more powerful motive to scrap the private vehicle from the arterials in rush hour...
I know because I've lived in Brazil and, for a while, drove 2-3 times a week in a route that was served by a BRT-crap and a subway-crowded system, and I'd NEVER trade my 2h (each way) car commute for a 1h10 livestock transportation experience.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 24th, 2010, 03:50 PM   #794
Stofvdw
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 357
Likes (Received): 65

Stofvdw no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 24th, 2010, 05:34 PM   #795
mopc
Registered User
 
mopc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Santos Sao Paulo
Posts: 17,244
Likes (Received): 12002

Detailed map of future Monorail Line 17

mopc está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old September 24th, 2010, 10:05 PM   #796
mopc
Registered User
 
mopc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Santos Sao Paulo
Posts: 17,244
Likes (Received): 12002

Oldest Metro car, according to experts, the 1972 Budd Mafersa no. 33

mopc está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old September 25th, 2010, 04:02 AM   #797
mopc
Registered User
 
mopc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Santos Sao Paulo
Posts: 17,244
Likes (Received): 12002

Anhangabaú station, line 3, downtown, by Tchelllo



On a rainy evening:


Surroundings:
mopc está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old September 25th, 2010, 06:41 AM   #798
mopc
Registered User
 
mopc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Santos Sao Paulo
Posts: 17,244
Likes (Received): 12002

Line 3 somewhere on the East side, also showing the East Side Radial Freeway and the bike path

image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr




Bike parking

image hosted on flickr


http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3467/...cab4ede3_o.jpg
mopc está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old September 25th, 2010, 06:51 AM   #799
Martini87
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: São Paulo
Posts: 445
Likes (Received): 3

Edit

Last edited by Martini87; September 25th, 2010 at 07:37 AM.
Martini87 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 25th, 2010, 07:25 AM   #800
Martini87
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: São Paulo
Posts: 445
Likes (Received): 3

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Simple solution: Sao Paulo needs to become so expensive to live that people can't afford and move out, leaving the city more gentrified, pushing a decline in its total population (metro area population I mean).
It doesn't need to do that. Every big city that faced these problems in the past overcame them by investing heavily in their transportation system. New York and Paris did it in the fist half of the century, Tokyo and Seoul did it in the second half, and now Shanghai and Beijing are doing it now. The heavy rail/subway IS the best option for a city like São paulo, due to its ability to transport high volumes of people at good average speeds, and its ability to overcome physical barriers such as rivers, surface expressways and railways, hills and valleys, etc


Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
But it could be the other way around: a "higher-class flight" that, facing problems caused foremost by overcrowd (Brazil has PLENTY of space elsewhere), starts pulling away financial, HQs and other business that deplete the city of many indirect job positions and, again, lower the population of the city.
OK, now you're suggesting white flight? Why don't you ask the folks in the US or South Africa if what happened to their cities? Man, you're really suggesting the abandonment of this huge urban space only because it doesn't suit your old-fashioned utopia? That's so sixties...you're at least four decades late...Moses died long ago, and so his ideas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
People choose car because they are the second-best (microeconomically speaking) solution most of the time. I'm not a libertarian, libertarianism is somewhere between simplistic and idealistic and reality-detached. I'm not "deciding people should drive". I'm saying in an atomized set of individual choice decisions, "drive" will be the most likely outcome of the individual utility functions. I didn't advocate closing the subway, I said it's unrealistic to expect the middle class to join the "let's mix with the poor, let's sweat and get almost killed by suffocation so the city has less traffic"..
People choose the car when it's possible and viable. The same thing with mass transport. It would be stupid of mine to think Kansas City would become a transit-friendly city, since it's urban form is completely car-dominant. The same absurd is to think a dense city, with lack of high-capacity roadways, and a huge population mainly without cars, should invest in a transport mode that does not work properly in these conditions. São Paulo urban form is perfect for a high capacity urban rail systems.

It's not about undensifying SP so that it can fit into the car-model, it's the car model viability in SP that shall be reexamed. I'm glad the priority to mass transit is beginning to solidify: public polls show that the majority of people supports mass transit investment over freeway construction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
I see it the other way. Economic inequalities (huge ones) already exist in Brazil. It is good to have a decent sort of spatial passive segregation to avoid social conflicts. For instance, when I lived in Brazil, going for entertainment in areas without connections to public transit was better because it meant, among other things, a more selective crowd would show up (the ones with cars or money to taxi). Same applies to beaches: those in urban areas served by buses get filled with people that take make-shifts kiosks and pack food in lousy foam boxes, while those more remotely accessible keep a more upbeat tone, with selling of more expensive food and so.

More important than that: sometimes the immediate reality of social inequality and income disparity is very troublesome and conflict-generating. IF you have kids travelling to Disney World every second year and kids whose parents work 60h/week to feed them playing in the same parks and walking the same streets from the same school, it will generate a hostile environment, for instance. But the kids have nothing to do with 300 years of systemic inequality and they deserve a life away from these shocks. Adults also are, normally, sensible persons. Nobody feels good shopping for überexpensive clothes next to a food bank.
But of course social inequality is conflict-prone! That's obvious! The most violent countries are the most unequal too! And what astonishes me is that you only propose things that hide poverty, so that it doesn't hurt the conscience of the rich, because I reckon it's very uncomfortable to see someone begging for food when you're splurging the money you won because you went to a public college paid by the whole of the society.

What should be focused is how to diminish inequality, and that is reflected spacially as well. A unequal society produces a segregated and precarious city. A developed city will make sure that the majority of its spaces shall have decent standards of infrastructure, public services, etc. Hiding the poor won't solve the problem (South Africa tried to do that, and look what happened), and that's basically what you're proposing. By exclusive, you are meaning exclusionary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
When you see a mere political election as a battle of the good against the evil, you are either buying into simplifications sold to semi-illiterate people or you are misleading yourself in a parallel World. It's an election, not a War of Survival.
It's not about good vs evil: it's about left vs right, and I don't expect the right to solve the inequalities it helped to foster. So, it's in fact very simple.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
I know because I've lived in Brazil and, for a while, drove 2-3 times a week in a route that was served by a BRT-crap and a subway-crowded system, and I'd NEVER trade my 2h (each way) car commute for a 1h10 livestock transportation experience.
But you are a VERY LITLE MINORITY (not your opinion regarding PT, but your economic condition). So I bet with you that the people in the extreme south and east of SP (they're more than 6 million people, so their opinion count way more than yours) would easily trade their 2.5 to 3 hour commute in a bus for a 1 hour-commute in an air-conditioned subway, and that's what really at stake here. Their time gains multiplied by this huge population would be far bigger than these minutes the upper classes are giving up by staying stuck in traffic.

It's not about moving the middle class as you think of it, since is in fact an euphemism for the upper class, or elite, that live in noble neighborhoods. They'll never use PT, no upper class uses PT anywhere. It's about moving this GIGANTIC mass of people in the most efficient (both financially and environmentally) way, and mass transit IS the most efficient transportation mode in this context, like you or not.

In my case, I'd never trade my 30 minute subway trip by the same time (or even less) inside a car, since I can't read, watch my favourite series on the cell phone, or simply sleep. And also, the possibility of being robbed when in a car in SP is way higher than if you're on PT (especially the subway).

Last edited by Martini87; September 25th, 2010 at 07:42 AM.
Martini87 no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
metro, são paulo, subway, trains

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 06:08 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium