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Old February 2nd, 2011, 04:51 PM   #1261
Tiago Costa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
EDIT: one station (Trindade) of Line 12 was closed and dismantled. It has been completely vandalized and destroyed many times and it is the government gave up and shut down the station, demolishing altogether. The same line was so vandalized last decade it was kept out of service for 6 months after a massive vandal attack on trains, stations and so.

[The other station I mentioned was not closed, so I'm correcting the facts]
Still incorrect. The line that was closed for 6 months was Line 7. After that incident, it never suffered such level of vandalism. Line 12 had some vandalism episodes after 1999 (like putting fire in trains), but since 2005 (and before, but I don't remember exatly when) the line does not have this level of vandalism anymore.
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Old February 2nd, 2011, 06:27 PM   #1262
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiago Costa View Post
I don't see any problem in showing the problems of the system. But I consider a "OMG, the system is scary" approach inadequate. What we saw here was a very poor presentation of the problems, showing some extreme situations (some are not, some are daily situations). But in general, every day the system have some problems, most of them being attacked in some way (by making some operational changes, or buying more trains, or constructing new lines).

If you are clever enough, and I now you are, you will see that you showed only two lines in that videos. What we can see about it? The lines 3 and 11 are the most problematic lines. Most of 50% of the problems caused by overcrowding come from them. If you search for problems in other lines, you will encounter overcrowding too, but the horror show we see in the past videos will not be repeated.


I agree with your opinion. The problems are consequences of a Megacity and poor capacity of absorption to high demand in public transport.
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Old February 2nd, 2011, 06:39 PM   #1263
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But we cannot just seat and see this happening without doing anything. We have to search and see what efforts are being made to solve or amenize these problems. If the efforts are not enough, we have to demand more effort. But for me, the efforts are the best they can be, with the available budget.
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Old February 2nd, 2011, 07:53 PM   #1264
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I believe Suburbanist is bothered by the way this thread goes. Only picture-posting with sparse shallow comments about the system.

I'm sorry but there's not much to discuss here, once only a few foreign forumers are interested in deep analysis about the system's good and bad points, as we do in the SSC-BR.

Exposing crisis situations in such exaggerated way and pointing out the system's worst problems won't change that - people would see your post with those videos, say "omg, that's terrifying" and go away.

Bringing up a good conversation about the thread's subject would require us to make international forumers interested on it. We'd need to show something interesting, not useless complaints. . .
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Old February 3rd, 2011, 03:57 AM   #1265
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Every year a survey on São Paulo's public transportation system is carried out and the 2010 results, released precisely today, show that the people who indeed live in the city and use the system don't share the same opinions with Suburbanist. I brought here the main data so people abroad can have a general and correct idea on how our system has developed in the latest year:

75% of the interviewed said São Paulo's public transportation system has improved, due to:
- Network growth, for 50%
- Fleet growth, for 44%
- Time saving, for 29%
- Fleet renewal, for 21%
- Comfort, for 16%

Satisfaction rates:
Excellent/good in green, Bad/Terrible in red
Metrô = subway lines, CPTM = suburban trains



The complete survey, including data from the previous years and other means of transportation such as municipal and metropolitan buses, can be found in the ANTP (Public Transportation National Association) website or directly here: http://www.antp.net/biblioteca/GTPSQ2010PS.pdf

Last edited by Luuuke; February 3rd, 2011 at 04:25 AM.
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Old February 3rd, 2011, 06:59 PM   #1266
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luuuke View Post
Every year a survey on São Paulo's public transportation system is carried out and the 2010 results, released precisely today, show that the people who indeed live in the city and use the system don't share the same opinions with Suburbanist. I brought here the main data so people abroad can have a general and correct idea on how our system has developed in the latest year:

75% of the interviewed said São Paulo's public transportation system has improved, due to:
- Network growth, for 50%
- Fleet growth, for 44%
- Time saving, for 29%
- Fleet renewal, for 21%
- Comfort, for 16%

Satisfaction rates:
Excellent/good in green, Bad/Terrible in red
Metrô = subway lines, CPTM = suburban trains



The complete survey, including data from the previous years and other means of transportation such as municipal and metropolitan buses, can be found in the ANTP (Public Transportation National Association) website or directly here: http://www.antp.net/biblioteca/GTPSQ2010PS.pdf
This is a hard-line, anti-car, extremist NGO. So I'd doubt their neutrality on the issue. They are an association propped by money from bus and train manufacturers. So you get the picture ;p

Moreover, it is not only the opinion of the users that matters. Most users are not capable of even understanding the engineering concepts behind a transportation network.
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Old February 4th, 2011, 01:56 AM   #1267
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and sure, let's add more cars and ask everybody to abandon the subways/buses ... we got plenty of room ...




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Old February 4th, 2011, 02:57 AM   #1268
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Are those unusual situations like the ones on the videos???

Last edited by Eduardo GJF; February 4th, 2011 at 03:15 AM.
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Old February 4th, 2011, 03:04 AM   #1269
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
This is a hard-line, anti-car, extremist NGO. So I'd doubt their neutrality on the issue. They are an association propped by money from bus and train manufacturers. So you get the picture ;p
No, I don't. Actually, if a research says people are unsatisfied with mass transit, the logical thing a governor does is to invest in the system (or at least promise to do it), what would only benefit bus and train manufacturers. Why then would they say public transportation is going well? So their products were no longer necessary?
Besides the fact that whoever bothers to take a look on the survey results can see the evaluation was not always positive. There's no pattern that might indicate manipulation of data.
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Old February 5th, 2011, 09:06 AM   #1270
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Uploading a picture of a jammed expressway to justify the alleged need for investments in public transportation is a low-level tactic that ignores, in itself, the principles of traffic engineering.

You can't tell, on basis of road congestion alone, whether public transport is needed or not. Moreover, if people evaluates any public service badly, you don't necessarily have to invest on them, without considering the financial implications, economic feasibility and economic sustainability etc.

Such a research's finding doesn't prove the contrary, also. I just think evaluating a system's perception of quality without any questions asked about increased taxes needed to fund is, essentially, of limited use to make so encompassing assumptions about how public policy in regard of transport should, or should not, be modeled.
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Old February 5th, 2011, 07:53 PM   #1271
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02/05/2011 - Line 2 - Santos-Imigrantes Station (IMG):


By: Costa André


By: Costa André


By: Costa André
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Old February 6th, 2011, 02:47 AM   #1272
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Uploading a picture of a jammed expressway to justify the alleged need for investments in public transportation is a low-level tactic that ignores, in itself, the principles of traffic engineering.

You can't tell, on basis of road congestion alone, whether public transport is needed or not. Moreover, if people evaluates any public service badly, you don't necessarily have to invest on them, without considering the financial implications, economic feasibility and economic sustainability etc.

Such a research's finding doesn't prove the contrary, also. I just think evaluating a system's perception of quality without any questions asked about increased taxes needed to fund is, essentially, of limited use to make so encompassing assumptions about how public policy in regard of transport should, or should not, be modeled.
For me, there is simple and good indicator that can determine if public transport investiments are not so necessary: when the improvements on the system does not attract more than a residual amount of new users, is the time of stop making heavy investments.

Today, every improvement in the system atract a huge demand. The more offer you do, the more is the quantity of new users. This is a clearly indicator. Of course, this will not mean that the investments on the road system will stop. Indeed, it can be parallel. The only current problem is the lack of action of the prefecture, that led to a less-than-good amount of investments.

But the result of opening new avenues is not so good as making new rapid transit lines, unless they go to very different places that the rapid transit lines go.
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Old February 7th, 2011, 03:12 PM   #1273
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eduardo GJF View Post
I believe Suburbanist is bothered by the way this thread goes. Only picture-posting with sparse shallow comments about the system.

I'm sorry but there's not much to discuss here, once only a few foreign forumers are interested in deep analysis about the system's good and bad points, as we do in the SSC-BR.

Exposing crisis situations in such exaggerated way and pointing out the system's worst problems won't change that - people would see your post with those videos, say "omg, that's terrifying" and go away.

Bringing up a good conversation about the thread's subject would require us to make international forumers interested on it. We'd need to show something interesting, not useless complaints. . .
yes,thats true, as an Asians forumer,its really shocking for me to see this youtube video showing how terrifying the Brazilian cities coping with the crowded urban transports, the jammed suffocated subway really scare me to travel to Sao Paulo, Rio etc,thats my first impression, thanx to some of you that posted the videos at the first place
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Old February 7th, 2011, 03:21 PM   #1274
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maybe Brazilian are very proud with the among the largest population country in the world with diversity, multicultural ethnic group etc.. but some of us would rather live in a small, quite country,less people to deal with,not too hectic,efficiency like Norway or New Zealand, for some of us the sexy boobs,tanned skin, gorgeous people is not the priority..
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Old February 7th, 2011, 04:26 PM   #1275
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Old February 7th, 2011, 05:08 PM   #1276
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Quote:
Originally Posted by constipation View Post
yes,thats true, as an Asians forumer,its really shocking for me to see this youtube video showing how terrifying the Brazilian cities coping with the crowded urban transports, the jammed suffocated subway really scare me to travel to Sao Paulo, Rio etc,thats my first impression, thanx to some of you that posted the videos at the first place
A tourist can avoid rush times, so why use the system in crowded moments when is possible to use it in more calm moments? This is true for every crowded system in the world, not only for São Paulo and Rio de Janeiro systems.
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Old February 7th, 2011, 05:55 PM   #1277
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Just out of curiosity, how is the expansion largely being funded? Is it mostly coming of taxation, be it city, state or Federal level? Is there currently a lack of funding for future expansion?
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Old February 7th, 2011, 06:23 PM   #1278
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Almost all financial resources come from state investments and loans made by state government. São Paulo city government is currently making some investments too, and federal government often makes some few investments too, but in small amounts compared with state investments.

In the last years the funding for improvements and expansions had increased very much, and this allowed an good acceleration in the construction of new lines and the improvements on existing lines.
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Old February 7th, 2011, 08:52 PM   #1279
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Right, I see. Cheers for that. When you say investments do you mean owning assets or equity? Just curious.

Borrowing is a good idea. For metro systems like in Sao Paulo, where coverage is small (relative to city size) and suppressed demand huge meaning passenger growth is theoretically massive if lines are built, i think raising debt (whether loans or bonds) is perhaps the most logical form of funding because of future income.
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Old February 7th, 2011, 10:14 PM   #1280
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Right, I see. Cheers for that. When you say investments do you mean owning assets or equity? Just curious.

Borrowing is a good idea. For metro systems like in Sao Paulo, where coverage is small (relative to city size) and suppressed demand huge meaning passenger growth is theoretically massive if lines are built, i think raising debt (whether loans or bonds) is perhaps the most logical form of funding because of future income.
There is a state-owned (100% of shares) corporations called Companhia do Metropolitano de São Paulo that owns the tracks, rolling stock and all related infrastructure. It manages the system and sometimes build new lines.

However, most capital investments (and all major ones like new fleets, major refurbishing, line construction) are paid by third-party public entities like the State of São Paulo or the Federal Government. Companhia do Metropolitano de São Paulo doesn't have enough autonomy, financial governance or collaterals (it can't mortgage, by its statuses, rolling stock or physical infrastructure) to support the huge amount of debt that would be needed to finance construction itself, so the money - and associated debt, if any - for construction comes from the general budget.
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