China's ghost cities

[Kenwen]

Originally Posted by Rinchinlhumbe

With his hostile and disresepctful stance related to anything outside China he gives Chinese people a bad name. What about some modesty? Im sure it will earn him more sympathies if he does not start each of his posts with "Thats bullshit, China will never..."
Ive been living in Shanghai for over 3 years and really loved it and, believe me, I do not like the biased reporting of Western media putting the blame on China. But it is just okay to remind some some Chinese people about some challenges looming up in the future if it happens in a polite tone. Every country has its challenges, so does a diverse and huge country like China and it does not necessarily mean that China is a backward, non civilized country.
Even the Chinese government seems to realize that and this strengthens my convicition that Kenwen has either been brainwashed or is lacking in self-confidence.

I'm hostile? Many people here who doesn't know the present situations here are discussing how is China going down, at least provide me some facts and figures before u can convince me to shut up. It's my right to say what ever I want to say here, if u don't like it do not read it, I don't know how you can get piss so easily, u need an anger manager therapy. And your unpoliteness shows who you really are, at least I haven't personal attack someone, unlike u uncivilized farmers, go home milk your cows.
You are certainly being brainwash by your country's media, statement like u chinese are being brainwash is always the laughing source for me, cuz so many people like u can easily fooled by your country's media and think every Chinese are brainwashed. You are the one whose lacking self confidence, I just don't understand how u can get so angry when someone discussing matters that's none related to u, grow up boy. People like u are giving bad names for your country, now I understand how come there are so many football hooligans in Germany.

[QUOTE=Actually, Dongguan is three time bigger than Hamburg. So what? In turn it means: more fresh air, less crowds, less congestion. And even if not...who cares? In contrast to Kenwen you are invited to critisize my homecountry as you like. I know that Germany is not without fault and Im fine with that and proud of it nevertheless.[/QUOTE]

I'm happy for people criticizing my country, have I ever said the real estate is in good shape and not a problem? I've clearly said the government is solving this problem. Since u've been living in China for long time can u at least show me your certain knowledge of what China really is, people like u whose yelling: China is going down, look at these photos. Who cares Hamburg has more fresh air and less congested, so does millions of chinese small towns and villages.

[hc_ge]

Originally Posted by Kenwen

I'm hostile? Many people here who doesn't know the present situations here are discussing how is China going down, at least provide me some facts and figures before u can convince me to shut up. It's my right to say what ever I want to say here, if u don't like it do not read it, I don't know how you can get piss so easily, u need an anger manager therapy. And your unpoliteness shows who you really are, at least I haven't personal attack someone, unlike u uncivilized farmers, go home milk your cows.
You are certainly being brainwash by your country's media, statement like u chinese are being brainwash is always the laughing source for me, cuz so many people like u can easily fooled by your country's media and think every Chinese are brainwashed. You are the one whose lacking self confidence, I just don't understand how u can get so angry when someone discussing matters that's none related to u, grow up boy. People like u are giving bad names for your country, now I understand how come there are so many football hooligans in Germany.



I'm happy for people criticizing my country, have I ever said the real estate is in good shape and not a problem? I've clearly said the government is solving this problem. Since u've been living in China for long time can u at least show me your certain knowledge of what China really is, people like u whose yelling: China is going down, look at these photos. Who cares Hamburg has more fresh air and less congested, so does millions of chinese small towns and villages.

Kenwen, we should tolerate different voices. as a chinese, we know what runs in china. no matter what others see/say about us, china is china. we are on our own way.

[little universe]

Originally Posted by Rinchinlhumbe

Im not angry at all, actually I like this kind of discussion. If somebody comes up with nationalist phrases I take my right to voice my opinion, thats all. As you know, we Germans have learnt our lesson with nationalist powered megalomania...

Btw pls help me translating the second paragraph. Maybe my English is too weak but I simply do not get it: "I am an ATM machine starting a fight with Greece"?

Enjoy the music!

ATM (at the moment)

My computer changed tune to Carl Orff's Carmina Burana which was first staged in 1937. I could hear Germany as an rising power and the national proud the composer try to interpret from the work...Germany raided Poland, dragged the whole Europe into the devastating war that was 2 years after 1937... I guess as a German you learned a valuable lesson from it.

When i look at the current affairs, i do start worrying about the increasing irrational nationalism in China. I guess the internaional society feel more so for the sheer size of the country.

I would like to see my home country eventually accept the Universal Value (maybe flavoured with some Chinese Cultural Identities) in the forseeable future, although some of my compatriots would not agree.

[Kenwen]

Originally Posted by little universe

ATM (at the moment)

My computer changed tune to Carl Orff's Carmina Burana which was first staged in 1937. I could hear Germany as an rising power and the national proud the composer try to interpret from the work...Germany raided Poland, dragged the whole Europe into the devastating war that was 2 years after 1937... I guess as a German you learned a valuable lesson from it.

When i look at the current affairs, i do start worrying about the increasing irrational nationalism in China. I guess the internaional society feel more so for the sheer size of the country.

I would like to see my home country eventually accept the Universal Value (maybe flavoured with some Chinese Cultural Identities) in the forseeable future, although some of my compatriots would not agree.

Democracy does not function properly all the time, once the governments are control by the big corps( USA), they will act unreasonable to the vast public( spend huge sum of money in wars and weapons in a economy downturn while millions of people are homeless and starving), but only reasonable to the interest group( weapon companies in USA gets lots of orders from the government budget).
I'm sure people in China will find a better system in the future, China is the first country in the world to abandoned feudalism since Emperor Qin, and maximized their countrymen's talents to governed the country by selecting governors from open examinations rather than posts being inherited, it was disrupted after the Manchurian occupations to turn everyone into slaves and forbid free thinking.

[Chrissib]

Originally Posted by xtraxxl

Most Asians living in urban areas live in low & high rise apartments and that include the Japanese, Taiwanese, and Koreans. Their apartments have the same style as the ones in China. You obviously haven't been to any of these places. In rural China people live in houses as well just so you know.

Furthermore there're no centrally planned housing in China. In fact there're nothing in China that're actually centrally planned anymore. China is not a true "communist" country. Even China doesn't call itself communist anymore, it calls itself "Chinese style socialism", which basically translates into Chinese style capitalism.

I think you really should go visit China one day. It's really different from how the media portrays it.

You haven't ever looked on different Asian cities in Google Earth, have you? Japanese cities look totally different than Chinese cities. In the prefecture of Tokyo, 30% of all people live in detached houses, in Osaka 40% and in Aichi prefecture more than 50%. In Japan there are only very few China like developments, in taiwan some more and in krea they build a lot of it, although the housing stock is still dominated by small appartement buildings.

I never said that housing in China is centrally planned, I just said it looks like that.

[George W. Bush]

Originally Posted by xtraxxl

Unlike Europeans or Americans or another nationality for that matter, Chinese people like to buy real estates with as much cash as possible. Housing mortgage wasn't even a thing until recently. Again this is the same for overseas Chinese buyers too as some of you from North America/Australasia might have read in the newspaper. Does this mean that the real estate bubble in China is "healthier"? I don't know.

Not healthier, but less unwholesome. If the building frenzy is not excessively credit-financed then it at least won't trigger a banking crisis like in USA, Spain and Ireland, countries in which the economy is mired in a shitload of real estate related debt.

[Chrissib]

Originally Posted by xtraxxl

Have you ever been to Asia before? European/American style sub-urbanization in East Asia will NEVER happen because it's just unrealistic.

Also "like Western Europe or USA around 1900. Apart from the UK, all nations built mostly appartement buildings then." What? You don't even make any sense now buddy.

By the way, there's a huge condo/apartment boom in Canada right now, and according to your logic Canada should also be an underdeveloped area that's 112 years behind EU/US right.

(condo is basically a fancier word for a fancier apartment, condo is very North American, no one uses it in Australasia, they're all called apartments)

There may be booms and busts in Canada, but the Canadian cities are still dominated by their suburban housing which is growing as well. Roughly 50% of all Torontonians live in detached houses and 45% in Vancouver. I'd only call Montreal appartement dominated, the percentage there is around 40% in detached houses.

Just saying there is a boom because there is some construction of highrise condos in the inner city isn't sufficient for saying that the whole of Canada lives in appartements.

[Chrissib]

Originally Posted by xtraxxl

Can you not BS if you don't know anything about it please? Cheers.

Your insults tell me a lot about your intelligence...

The Chinese cities won't continue to grow at 3-4% a year in this decade. It's just normal that the urbanisation wave slows down when already 50% of the population lives in cities. Or can you conjure more people out of nothing who will move to cities? I think not.

[Chrissib]

Originally Posted by xtraxxl

The biggest high rise booms in Asia are in China, Hong Kong, and Taiwan. How can you not know this after visiting this forum for so long? This is probably the most concentrated area of skyscrapers in the world as well, have you forgotten that?

The boom will end. Nobody can cheat on demographic developments.

[George W. Bush]

Originally Posted by Chrissib

The Chinese cities won't continue to grow at 3-4% a year in this decade. It's just normal that the urbanisation wave slows down when already 50% of the population lives in cities. Or can you conjure more people out of nothing who will move to cities? I think not.

50% don't make China a highly urbanized country. In Brazil and some other emerging economies more or less 90% of the population live in cities. So there is still plenty of migration potential in China.

[chornedsnorkack]

Out of the slightly over 50% of Chinese who already actually live in cities, how many are:

young and single illegal immigrants on low-paid jobs, who would be glad to get better salary, legal hukou of the city where they actually live, found a family and move from cramped hostels where they may now be living to big apartments of their own?

young born citizens of their cities who are now living in small homes with their families but who would also be glad to move to big apartments of their own?

[Rinchinlhumbe]

Originally Posted by Kenwen

I'm hostile? Many people here who doesn't know the present situations here are discussing how is China going down, at least provide me some facts and figures before u can convince me to shut up. It's my right to say what ever I want to say here, if u don't like it do not read it, I don't know how you can get piss so easily, u need an anger manager therapy. And your unpoliteness shows who you really are, at least I haven't personal attack someone, unlike u uncivilized farmers, go home milk your cows.
You are certainly being brainwash by your country's media, statement like u chinese are being brainwash is always the laughing source for me, cuz so many people like u can easily fooled by your country's media and think every Chinese are brainwashed. You are the one whose lacking self confidence, I just don't understand how u can get so angry when someone discussing matters that's none related to u, grow up boy. People like u are giving bad names for your country, now I understand how come there are so many football hooligans in Germany.



I'm happy for people criticizing my country, have I ever said the real estate is in good shape and not a problem? I've clearly said the government is solving this problem. Since u've been living in China for long time can u at least show me your certain knowledge of what China really is, people like u whose yelling: China is going down, look at these photos. Who cares Hamburg has more fresh air and less congested, so does millions of chinese small towns and villages.

Finally a reply from my sweetie.
"Hostile" may sound a bit extreme, lets put it at "ignorant".
Your facts are mostly right, but they are based on a sinocentric view. I doubt you recognize that otherwise we would not have this discussion.
You highlight everything which is positive about China and stress everything what is negative about the outside world. Best example: you compare Kuwaits manufacturing sector to the Chinese and assume that Kuweit has nothing worthwhile to offer to the world except oil - hello??? Kuweit: 3 million people. China: 1.400 millioin people.
It is not really annoying to learn from you in all of your postings that China is on the top of everything. But it gets quite lame after a while.

One genius-like hint from my side for you: read what I am writing here. It makes life a lot easier.
One the previous page I wrote: "Ive been living in Shanghai for over 3 years and really loved it and, believe me, I do not like the biased reporting of Western media putting the blame on China."

I dislike some Western medias attitude to reduce everything what is going in China on human rights violation, the Tibet conflict, counterfeits, enviromental pollution. Having lived in China for 3 years I can tell right from wrong. Why should I be brainwashed? Only because it makes life easier for you?

Originally Posted by Kenwen

It's my right to say what ever I want to say here, if u don't like it do not read it

Correct. Unfortunately it does apply to all users not only you.

Originally Posted by Kenwen

least provide me some facts and figures before u can convince me to shut up

Done by various posters on the first pages. BTW, nobody wants to bash China - some people just point out some single worrying tendencies, which are even recognized by the central government. I do not understand why you react so harsh to this?
Nobody here is denying Chinas achievements in the past 30 years....

Originally Posted by Kenwen

u need an anger manager therapy

Faboulous idea. Please make an offer.

Originally Posted by Kenwen

uncivilized farmers, go home milk your cows

Sry for that.

Originally Posted by Kenwen

how come there are so many football hooligans in Germany.

Been to a German football match? btw, simplification/prejudice

Originally Posted by Kenwen

You are certainly being brainwash by your country's media

NO! We have a free press in Germany, I read Chinese newspapers and watch CCTV program as well. Rest see above.

Originally Posted by Kenwen

Who cares Hamburg has more fresh air and less congested, so does millions of chinese small towns and villages

Welll, not me

[Rinchinlhumbe]

Originally Posted by little universe

ATM (at the moment)

When i look at the current affairs, i do start worrying about the increasing irrational nationalism in China.

EXACTLY.
Look, Kewen, thats what we are talking about. Relax and stop touting your country.

Originally Posted by little universe

I would like to see my home country eventually accept the Universal Value (maybe flavoured with some Chinese Cultural Identities) in the forseeable future, although some of my compatriots would not agree.

Sounds good! Im with you

[7freedom7]

Originally Posted by Chrissib

Well, I think you got some things wrong.

I am not Turkish and have never been to Turkey.

Sure about Malaysia? When I look at Google Maps, I can find a lot of rowhome developments like these: https://maps.google.de/maps?hl=de&ll...38409&t=k&z=15

You're right about Taiwan, but the huge urbanisation wave there has already happened, so their cities won't change that much as they switch to highrises now. Most people still live in small appartement houses.

In India there is construction at a considerable speed, but still, most homes are more or less independently built small appartement homes. In outer Mumbai and Delhi there are many highrises but they are built lower than in China, mostly around 7 to 10 stories high, whereas in China there are many highrises with 20 stories.

I got you're from Germany long before, actually I mean I'm somehow under impression that you are ein türkisch-deutscher Kerl from Deutschland as you show serious concern all the time over the Uighur Chinese here and there.

Lets get back on topic tho, well I'm quite sure in Malaysia the mid-rise and high-rise apartment blocks there can overshadow what you see in its neighbor twin brother. Many Singaporeans are even pouring into its north neighbor to buy apartments nowadays. Even if there are many town house and single house developments under construction in Malaysia, they're just a part of urban developments, not whole of them.

For India, small apartment buildings you see on Google earth are highly likely old blocks built many years back in the cities. Due to the limited land and the resulting skyrocketing land values and plus the massive population explosion in the cities, no way is India building small apartment blocks for now in the big cities to meet the huge demand, that's a no brainer thing, or the pricey condos will choke off the vast majority of Indians given their income level. India is building as high apartment blocks and will ultimately build higher ones then elsewhere in the several years to come.

[Chrissib]

Originally Posted by 7freedom7

I got you're from Germany long before, actually I mean I'm somehow under impression that you are ein türkisch-deutscher Kerl from Deutschland as you show serious concern all the time over the Uighur Chinese here and there.

Lets get back on topic tho, well I'm quite sure in Malaysia the mid-rise and high-rise apartment blocks there can overshadow what you see in its neighbor twin brother. Many Singaporeans are even pouring into its north neighbor to buy apartments nowadays. Even if there are many town house and single house developments under construction in Malaysia, they're just a part of urban developments, not whole of them.

For India, small apartment buildings you see on Google earth are highly likely old blocks built many years back in the cities. Due to the limited land and the resulting skyrocketing land values and plus the massive population explosion in the cities, no way is India building small apartment blocks for now in the big cities to meet the huge demand, that's a no brainer thing, or the pricey condos will choke off the vast majority of Indians given their income level. India is building as high apartment blocks and will ultimately build higher ones then elsewhere in the several years to come.

I'm very interested in demographic issues, especially in how minorities develop in relation to the majority population and since China certainly will be the biggest economy in 10 years, of course I like to know whether the Han can keep their majority in those outlying areas or if they will be out-breed by the minorities, but that's the wrong thread to discuss that things.

I am ethnically German and have no migration background.

Yes. we'll certainly see an increase in highrise construction in India.

But still, the amount of rowhome developments in KL look in Google Earth like they outnumber appartement construction.

[7freedom7]

Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack

Out of the slightly over 50% of Chinese who already actually live in cities, how many are:

young and single illegal immigrants on low-paid jobs, who would be glad to get better salary, legal hukou of the city where they actually live, found a family and move from cramped hostels where they may now be living to big apartments of their own?

young born citizens of their cities who are now living in small homes with their families but who would also be glad to move to big apartments of their own?

Many and many.

A bit correction, Chinese nationals are legally allowed to freely migrate consistently throughout any cities in any provinces of China. Legal/illegal immigrants are terms meant for the foreigners. In the past, new immigrants without local Hukou could buy residential / business buildings anyway as they wanted until recently the government gives taps on real estate speculation and froth.

It appears that the govt officials really learn lesson from U.S real estate bubble and engage themselves in the anti-speculation campaign to intentionally blow the froth in real estate during time period of the world economic recession which is the best timing to regulate the brutal and messy real estate market.

[7freedom7]

Originally Posted by Chrissib

I'm very interested in demographic issues, especially in how minorities develop in relation to the majority population and since China certainly will be the biggest economy in 10 years, of course I like to know whether the Han can keep their majority in those outlying areas or if they will be out-breed by the minorities, but that's the wrong thread to discuss that things.

I am ethnically German and have no migration background.

Yes. we'll certainly see an increase in highrise construction in India.

But still, the amount of rowhome developments in KL look in Google Earth like they outnumber appartement construction.

Thanks Chrissib for your clarification. In a secular society (Xinjiang), the Uighur Chinese will finally fit in very well with other ethnicities and the genuine democracy will be established one day and will reach and spread throughout the whole Xinjiang as well. However if we push Islamic fundamentalism in Xinjiang as those East Turkestan terrorists wish, that will undoubtedly cause a catastrophe on all people living in the region and the democracy will be a lost clause forever.

[yankeesfan1000]

Originally Posted by maldini

Apple and BMW employ way more people than Coach in China. They are proving manufacturing is not moving away.

Coach manufacturing base is too small to prove anything.

This together with India's falling FDI indicate that manufacturing is not moving away from China to India, like you claimed.

My god man. So because two companies out of hundreds, if not thousands of companies that have manufacturing facilities in China are increasing production, therefore it negates the fact that manufacturing as a WHOLE is starting to leave? That's like saying, because Apple and GM stock were up today, that proves that all stocks were up today. You're taking a tiny sliver of information and attempting to use it to prop up a much more macro intensive argument that has no traction, that completely ignores the bigger picture. Take a step back and again look at the macro situation, here are some sources that took literally 20-30 seconds worth of Googling to find, 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5.

Again, with the India and FDI thing, you're lack of basic reading comprehension never ceases to amaze. I never claimed that manufacturing is leaving China for India. What I said was that manufacturers who were leaving China were going to Southeast Asia and back to the US. And this is factually accurate as in one of the articles, (the last one #5) I posted the author questioned US manufacturers who were leaving China and said, where are you moving your manufacturing? They said, "...Vietnam (33.3%), the US (27.8%), Pakistan (22.2%) and Bangladesh (16.7%)."

If you want to have an honest discussion about this then fine. But first, read what I write. Second, I have provided actual statistical information which shows on a macro level that manufacturing is starting to leave China. I'm not saying it's a mass exodus and in 12 months there won't be any left, but it's a trend, and one that at this point is undeniable. If you however deny it, please provide sources of information and statistics to back your claim up, as I have done. Not tiny slivers of a few companies, but as a whole. If you prove me wrong, I'll be the first to admit it.

Edit: I'm adding an article to the list of sources, it's called: China Manufacturing PMI Softens Again, In Contraction For 6 Months. Clear enough?

[maldini]

Originally Posted by Jay

Going vertical is great when there's demand for it. It's also nice when people can afford the housing that's built.

The demand for new apartments is huge in China. Even with strict mortgage requirements, the prices have stayed buoyant. Every time there is a sale by the developers, the consumers just snap up all the available units within hours.

[Jay]

The why are there so many empty apartments throughout chinese cities?

Because people can't afford them, that's why. So what good does the new housing do if the populace of a country doesn't have the money to live there?