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Old June 6th, 2012, 05:05 PM   #301
Filandon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 600West218 View Post
Thanks.

Where in northern Spain do they remind you of? I could be heading that way in the not too distant future and now you know what I like to see



This thread is about old industrial buildings in Spain that have been restored and have new uses, is in Spanish but there tons of pictures and a useful index so you know where they are located:

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1493857

In my region, León, we enjoy de National Energy Museum in the city of Ponferrada made in an old coal termic plant. We have many mines around here, most of them with no longer use

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=736214

Avilés, in Asturias with Ensidesa
http://www.flickr.com/photos/c0ntraband/4629770900/

The harbour is also spectacular and a very interesting project by Brazilian architect Niemeyer has been carried on

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=906818


I would say the most similar areas to Charleroi in Spain are Asturias and the area around Bilbao, there are many huge factories that are still in use, let me do a small search and I'll send you a few pics. I´ll send you by pm not to destroy your beautiful thread, and who knows if we see you around here, it would be great

Last edited by Filandon; June 6th, 2012 at 05:23 PM.
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Old June 6th, 2012, 06:35 PM   #302
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Thank you very much for this great thread. Here is a (bad) translation of how the old locks work.


There are 2 chambers. The chambers are over an hydraulic piston and the two pistons are link which each other (so that when you want to lift one chamber, the other go down).
How it works without any boats: Assume there is 2.40m depth of water in each chambers. They weight the same: 1000T. If you open the valve commanding the hydraulic pistons, the two chambers, having the same weight, are in equilibrium. Now to break this equilibrium just add an additional 30cm of water (around 75T) to the chamber. This chamber will go down and the other one will go up.
If you put a boat in one chambers (without locking the door), the chambers will still weight the same: due to archimedes' principle, the boat will remove water from the chambers. This amount of water is equivalent to the weight of the boat. Thus the two chamber will have the same weight whether there is a boat in one or not. Now it works the same as before: just add some water in the upper chamber.
You ask how they add the water, your answer is at the end of the paragraph. The chamber going down will stop with his 30cm of additional water being above the level of the lower canal. Thus you can remove water (and then the boat) from this chamber. The chamber going up will stop 30cm below the level of the upper canal thus you can add the water.
For a boat to enter (or leave) the chambers, you need to create a link which do not leak. This is done using a big bellows to remove water between the doors of the canal and the chamber (I believe, they use the same trick on the new lift).
To make the hydraulic pistons, the doors and everything else work, they use pumps which provide water at 45Kg/cm^3. Funny thing, to make these pumps work, they use some water wheels with the water coming from the upper level.


Still, there was no answer for role is of the metal bridge in front of the lock.
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Old June 6th, 2012, 07:49 PM   #303
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Originally Posted by Filandon View Post
This thread is about old industrial buildings in Spain that have been restored and have new uses, is in Spanish but there tons of pictures and a useful index so you know where they are located:

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1493857

In my region, León, we enjoy de National Energy Museum in the city of Ponferrada made in an old coal termic plant. We have many mines around here, most of them with no longer use

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=736214

Avilés, in Asturias with Ensidesa
http://www.flickr.com/photos/c0ntraband/4629770900/

The harbour is also spectacular and a very interesting project by Brazilian architect Niemeyer has been carried on

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=906818


I would say the most similar areas to Charleroi in Spain are Asturias and the area around Bilbao, there are many huge factories that are still in use, let me do a small search and I'll send you a few pics. I´ll send you by pm not to destroy your beautiful thread, and who knows if we see you around here, it would be great
Thanks for the info. I will definitely look at this. And on the good side, I speak Spanish so exploring there should be a bit easier for me.
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Old June 6th, 2012, 07:58 PM   #304
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Thank you very much for this great thread. Here is a (bad) translation of how the old locks work.


There are 2 chambers. The chambers are over an hydraulic piston and the two pistons are link which each other (so that when you want to lift one chamber, the other go down).
How it works without any boats: Assume there is 2.40m depth of water in each chambers. They weight the same: 1000T. If you open the valve commanding the hydraulic pistons, the two chambers, having the same weight, are in equilibrium. Now to break this equilibrium just add an additional 30cm of water (around 75T) to the chamber. This chamber will go down and the other one will go up.
If you put a boat in one chambers (without locking the door), the chambers will still weight the same: due to archimedes' principle, the boat will remove water from the chambers. This amount of water is equivalent to the weight of the boat. Thus the two chamber will have the same weight whether there is a boat in one or not. Now it works the same as before: just add some water in the upper chamber.
You ask how they add the water, your answer is at the end of the paragraph. The chamber going down will stop with his 30cm of additional water being above the level of the lower canal. Thus you can remove water (and then the boat) from this chamber. The chamber going up will stop 30cm below the level of the upper canal thus you can add the water.
For a boat to enter (or leave) the chambers, you need to create a link which do not leak. This is done using a big bellows to remove water between the doors of the canal and the chamber (I believe, they use the same trick on the new lift).
To make the hydraulic pistons, the doors and everything else work, they use pumps which provide water at 45Kg/cm^3. Funny thing, to make these pumps work, they use some water wheels with the water coming from the upper level.


Still, there was no answer for role is of the metal bridge in front of the lock.
Thank you very much for all this helpful information and translation. It definitely does clarify some things. I guess the stopping 30 cm short would work. I wonder though if they have to have little doors in the gates to let the 30 cm difference equal out more calmly before they fully pull the gates up. Wouldn't just pulling the gates up with 30 cm difference might create a lot of turbulance in the water? Then again, maybe not.

That is also amazing about Archamides principle, I completly forgot about that. This has big implications for the large new lock. It means the tub with the water will always weigh the same no matter if it has a boat in it or not nor how big the boat is. That then means they can have the counter weights EXACTLY match the weight of the tubs and water all the time. That would make things a lot easier on the motors.

The tricky thing for me is still the gates. They have two on each end. One goes up and down with the tub and one stays in place when the tub moves to keep the water in the rest of the canal out. They both have to be pulled up for boats to enter and exit. What amazes me is the area below the tub seems to stay completely dry. I guess that means the two gates must be perfectly sealed so that there is no water between them when they are both dropped into place after a boat has passed. If they weren't perfectly sealed together and there was water between them when the inner gate went up with the tub and the lower gate stayed down the water that had been between them would spill into the area vacated by the tub. At least that is what I think.

And yeah, using the water power from the upper portion of the canal to power things like opening and closing the gates is neat. In New York on the Barge Canal which was built at basically the same time they used electric motors to operate the gates. Using water power is so much more elegent. I would like to know how they did it.

Last edited by 600West218; June 6th, 2012 at 08:18 PM.
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Old June 6th, 2012, 08:14 PM   #305
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The Walloons are historically the mechanicians of Europe
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Old June 6th, 2012, 08:25 PM   #306
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The Walloons are historically the mechanicians of Europe
I've come to the conclusion that Belgians are very industrious people. I looked up their Per Capita GDP on the internet and was amazed (stunned) that it was high than Germany's!!

Belgium is a very affluent country, even with whatever problems they have. And you certainly do see lots of industry everywhere. Even coming into Midi station in Brussels from France you pass a big car assembly plant (wasn't able to get pictures ).
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Old June 6th, 2012, 08:44 PM   #307
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Charleroi looks very interesting, I should go see it some time, and I see that you got to see its famous one-way ring road
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Old June 6th, 2012, 09:04 PM   #308
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I wonder though if they have to have little doors in the gates to let the 30 cm difference equal out more calmly before they fully pull the gates up. Wouldn't just pulling the gates up with 30 cm difference might create a lot of turbulance in the water? Then again, maybe not.
You are perfectly right. I did not translate this part because I did not understand the importance of it. They said that the door can be lowered a little.

Quote:
The tricky thing for me is still the gates. They have two on each end. One goes up and down with the tub and one stays in place when the tub moves to keep the water in the rest of the canal out. They both have to be pulled up for boats to enter and exit. What amazes me is the area below the tub seems to stay completely dry. I guess that means the two gates must be perfectly sealed so that there is no water between them when they are both dropped into place after a boat has passed. If they weren't perfectly sealed together and there was water between them when the inner gate went up with the tub and the lower gate stayed down the water that had been between them would spill into the area vacated by the tub. At least that is what I think.
For this part I don't know. I am not an engineered and, even with the french explications, I did not understand very well how it works. Thus my translation may not be really good (moreover I am not very good in english).
Maybe someone with better knowledge can look at the french explications and tell if the answered is there.
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Old June 6th, 2012, 09:31 PM   #309
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Charleroi looks very interesting, I should go see it some time, and I see that you got to see its famous one-way ring road
Huh, I didn't even notice that. Is that for real? A one direction ring road? No counterclockwise allowed?
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Old June 6th, 2012, 09:34 PM   #310
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For this part I don't know. I am not an engineered and, even with the french explications, I did not understand very well how it works. Thus my translation may not be really good (moreover I am not very good in english).
Maybe someone with better knowledge can look at the french explications and tell if the answered is there.
Your translations were very good and very helpful. It reminded me of some high school physics I forgot Thanks alot for doing the translation. The more we understand, the more we can marvel at things and truly enjoy them.
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Old June 6th, 2012, 09:54 PM   #311
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Huh, I didn't even notice that. Is that for real? A one direction ring road? No counterclockwise allowed?
Nope, but it's a very small ringroad. 3-4 lanes in one direction elevated at the South side and tunneled at the North side.


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Old June 6th, 2012, 09:55 PM   #312
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Is tax evasion in Belgium that bad? Great pictures btw.
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Old June 6th, 2012, 10:00 PM   #313
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Is tax evasion in Belgium that bad? Great pictures btw.
No, but compaired to countries like The Netherlands it probably is. But everything is regarded bad in Belgium compaired to The Netherlands so it doesn't really say much. It's just that our tax system is the second most complicated in Europe afther Spain. So if one on purpose makes a tiny fault, it's hard to find out... You always try to pay as little as possible (wich is still a lot because we also have one of the highist taxes in Europe) but you also need to make sure you don't pay to little or they'll charge you more the next year But most Belgians are king in making sure they pay as little as possible by for instance not mentioning specific details . But if you really evade taxes it won't take long before they catch you.
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Old June 6th, 2012, 10:02 PM   #314
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I've come to the conclusion that Belgians are very industrious people. I looked up their Per Capita GDP on the internet and was amazed (stunned) that it was high than Germany's!!

Belgium is a very affluent country, even with whatever problems they have. And you certainly do see lots of industry everywhere. Even coming into Midi station in Brussels from France you pass a big car assembly plant (wasn't able to get pictures ).
That must be the Audi plant where the A1 is assembled.



Belgium used to be the biggest car producer per capita => but now Slovakia is leading =>. Since back then 2 car assembly plants were closed but the car industry remains important in Belgium with 3 major plants: Volvo in Ghent (the other one that you have seen), Ford in Genk and Audi in Brussels.
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Old June 6th, 2012, 10:08 PM   #315
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Thanks. I don't have much problems reading english but when it was very hard for me to translate this small text.


On another subject, you may want to look at the history of the métro of Charleroi: it is unfinished with some abandoned section.

http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charleroi_Pre-metro
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Old June 6th, 2012, 10:10 PM   #316
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The R9 is just a very small inner ring road. The real Charleroi ring road is the R3.

About tax evasion: I don't know how bad it is in Belgium in comparison to other countries (it's not as bad as in Greece :s), but it's something that many Belgians try and that is generally accepted. Unreported employment (I don't know the right English word for it. We call it 'working in black') is also rather rule than exception in horeca and for people like plumbers and handymen.
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Old June 6th, 2012, 10:13 PM   #317
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Those assembly plants are vital for a lot of jobs in smaller companies that supply them. For instance the biggest employer in my town in Teneco Automotive wich supplies engine parts and suspension systems to Ford Genk. If Ford Genk closes those 3 plants in my town would also close wich means hundreds would go workless in this plant alone. Closing such plants is a real social nightmare...


@ Wapper: I think it's calles 'the black jobs market' in English.


@tigalion: I noticed in the video they bring pressed parts to the plant. In Ford genk they still press all those parts themselves. I know because my father works there and I also worked there for 2 years as vacation worker. In Ford they even make the wheels on spot and the dashboards ....I think it's more than an assembly plant alone.
ford genk: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWf1osx8rzQ
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Old June 6th, 2012, 10:13 PM   #318
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Huh, I didn't even notice that. Is that for real? A one direction ring road? No counterclockwise allowed?
It's also almost entirely build on viaducts (with some quite spectacular interchanges). It's also build literally above the train station so I think you must have seen it.


You may notice lot's of infrastructure in the Charleroi area is a bit 'overdone' (it also has a subway for a city with a population of under 200,000). In the 60s and the beginning of the 70s Charleroi was booming and the goverment wanted to make Charleroi a big city. But because of the economic downfall as caused by the closure of the heavy industry Charleroi even declined in population.

Last edited by De Klauw; June 6th, 2012 at 10:23 PM.
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Old June 6th, 2012, 10:19 PM   #319
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It's also almost entirely build on viaducts (with some quite spectacular interchanges. It's also build over the train station so I think you saw it.
OMG, no, I didn't notice that!!!! Gosh, you have to look everywhere in Belgium, even up. You never know where they might have built something
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Old June 6th, 2012, 10:25 PM   #320
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I wonder if they still need this motorway in the middle of the city. Other towns would have closed it a long time ago.
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