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Old July 3rd, 2012, 01:50 AM   #241
MiaM
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Lovely pictures!


One reason for so many cold war memorabilia is sold in Berlin may be because Berlin was the only city divided in a western and an eastern part. Every other city were either part of the western or the eastern part in the cold war days.

Also ex GDR (East Germany) is probably the only part of the former east bloc where many people from the former west bloc understands the native language.

Another reason that memorabilia from the former east german Nationelle Volksarme ("national peoples army") and the former soviet red army is sold is that all ex. NVA signs, symbols and similar stuff and atleast many ex. red army stuff became redundant around 1990, so there is probably more sellable memorabilia available than from any other army. (This reminds me of the classic story of someone shopping on eBay while drunk, and wakes up and wounders what he's going to do with a 3 metre tall Lenin statue. I don't know it that story is true or not, but it's a good story anyway).

There has also been a east germany nostalgia trend going on for some years now. ("Ostalgie" = a mix of "Ost" = east and "nostalgie" = nostalgia). The perhaps most famous part of that is the GDR designed "Ampelmenschen" traffic lights for pedestrian crossings. You recognise them by the hat the standing/walking man is wearing.
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Old July 3rd, 2012, 03:38 PM   #242
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cardiff View Post
Not sure what this was (concert hall or debating chamber)

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P5173341 by stephenanstiss, on Flickr
this is the "Haus der Kulturen der Welt" ("House of the Cultures of the World") It is a national centre for contemporary non-European art. It presents art exhibitions, theater and dance performances, concerts, author readings, films and academic conferences on non-European Visual Art and culture. It was formerly known as the "Kongresshalle" conference hall, a gift from the United States, designed in 1957 by the American architect Hugh Stubbins Jr. as a part of the Interbau exhibition. John F. Kennedy spoke here during his June 1963 visit to West Berlin.
To Berliners the building is also known as the "Schwangere Auster" ("pregnant oyster").
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Old July 3rd, 2012, 05:42 PM   #243
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Originally Posted by MiaM View Post
Lovely pictures!


One reason for so many cold war memorabilia is sold in Berlin may be because Berlin was the only city divided in a western and an eastern part. Every other city were either part of the western or the eastern part in the cold war days.

Also ex GDR (East Germany) is probably the only part of the former east bloc where many people from the former west bloc understands the native language.

Another reason that memorabilia from the former east german Nationelle Volksarme ("national peoples army") and the former soviet red army is sold is that all ex. NVA signs, symbols and similar stuff and atleast many ex. red army stuff became redundant around 1990, so there is probably more sellable memorabilia available than from any other army. (This reminds me of the classic story of someone shopping on eBay while drunk, and wakes up and wounders what he's going to do with a 3 metre tall Lenin statue. I don't know it that story is true or not, but it's a good story anyway).

There has also been a east germany nostalgia trend going on for some years now. ("Ostalgie" = a mix of "Ost" = east and "nostalgie" = nostalgia). The perhaps most famous part of that is the GDR designed "Ampelmenschen" traffic lights for pedestrian crossings. You recognise them by the hat the standing/walking man is wearing.

That east german nostalgia is just terrible! Obviously the people in the east don't realise that the best thing that could happen to them was the reunification! I don't know how people can worship commieblocks, ex regime leaders, oppression, 24h surveillance, not able to move freely and their crappy cars they had back then. Also the people in the east are horribly arrogant when the topic west vs. east arises. People in the east tend to describe east germany as totally equal, actually even better then the west althought this was NEVER ever the case. And I think it's really sad that even school teachers try to manipulate their students, telling them tails about how beautiful it was to live in the GDR. I know that because I came to East germany in the 3rd grade, and this was/is a totally different world.
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Old July 3rd, 2012, 08:55 PM   #244
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Originally Posted by Tiaren View Post
Bellevue is not the residence of Angela Merkel (our Chancellor) but the residence of Joachim Gauck (our president).

The president is head of state in Germany, but holds only ceremonial power. Then comes the Chancellor, with the effective power.

By the way, the official residence of the Chancellor is this building on the right:

But she prefers to live here, right opposite the Pergamon Museum (you must have walked by):

It's usually highly secured by guards, as you can see.
Very interesting, had no idea Germany had a seperate president, i dont think ive seen him refferenced in the UK once on the news and media, yet the French president is always talked about and their prime minister is only refferenced during elections, similarly with Italy. Funny how i walked passed her residence and didint notice it, but then 10 downing street is quite missable if it wasnt for the tourists outside te gates to the street. I also feel quite vindicaed that i thought the chancellerey looked like a modern palace!

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Originally Posted by MiaM View Post
Lovely pictures!


One reason for so many cold war memorabilia is sold in Berlin may be because Berlin was the only city divided in a western and an eastern part. Every other city were either part of the western or the eastern part in the cold war days.

Also ex GDR (East Germany) is probably the only part of the former east bloc where many people from the former west bloc understands the native language.

Another reason that memorabilia from the former east german Nationelle Volksarme ("national peoples army") and the former soviet red army is sold is that all ex. NVA signs, symbols and similar stuff and atleast many ex. red army stuff became redundant around 1990, so there is probably more sellable memorabilia available than from any other army. (This reminds me of the classic story of someone shopping on eBay while drunk, and wakes up and wounders what he's going to do with a 3 metre tall Lenin statue. I don't know it that story is true or not, but it's a good story anyway).

There has also been a east germany nostalgia trend going on for some years now. ("Ostalgie" = a mix of "Ost" = east and "nostalgie" = nostalgia). The perhaps most famous part of that is the GDR designed "Ampelmenschen" traffic lights for pedestrian crossings. You recognise them by the hat the standing/walking man is wearing.
Very interesting, i assumed it was tourist tatt being sold rather than authentic memorabilia. There was a series of documentaries ont he TV about how east Germans had fond memories of teh past, they were generally people who had few skills, not much ambition and not much chance of a job unless they were given one. Additionally i loved the green mand with the hat, very unique

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Originally Posted by Xorcist View Post
this is the "Haus der Kulturen der Welt" ("House of the Cultures of the World") It is a national centre for contemporary non-European art. It presents art exhibitions, theater and dance performances, concerts, author readings, films and academic conferences on non-European Visual Art and culture. It was formerly known as the "Kongresshalle" conference hall, a gift from the United States, designed in 1957 by the American architect Hugh Stubbins Jr. as a part of the Interbau exhibition. John F. Kennedy spoke here during his June 1963 visit to West Berlin.
To Berliners the building is also known as the "Schwangere Auster" ("pregnant oyster").
Thanks, the pregnant oyster is how i remembered it being called.

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Originally Posted by Avalanix View Post
That east german nostalgia is just terrible! Obviously the people in the east don't realise that the best thing that could happen to them was the reunification! I don't know how people can worship commieblocks, ex regime leaders, oppression, 24h surveillance, not able to move freely and their crappy cars they had back then. Also the people in the east are horribly arrogant when the topic west vs. east arises. People in the east tend to describe east germany as totally equal, actually even better then the west althought this was NEVER ever the case. And I think it's really sad that even school teachers try to manipulate their students, telling them tails about how beautiful it was to live in the GDR. I know that because I came to East germany in the 3rd grade, and this was/is a totally different world.
People alway look back with rose tinted glasses, there were obviously people who benefitted through comunism but the majority didnt. The same story is still being played out in different parts of the world. If it was a better system it would still be around today, in the end it collapsed on its own rather than through war or subterfuge

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Originally Posted by Dzwonsson View Post
@cradiff: this thread is awesome! Moreover, if awesomeness could be measured it'd be definately one of the most awesome SSC threads I've ever seen. Great job!
Wow thank you, really glad you like it and makes me glad i posted the pics!

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Originally Posted by DiggerD21 View Post
Angela Merkel is the Federal Chancellor. The Chancellor is the head of Government. In other countries often called Prime Minister.

The Federal President is Joachim Gauck. The President is the head of state.
Thank you
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Old July 3rd, 2012, 08:57 PM   #245
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Found this building interesting due to its isolation from the rest of the city, obviously part of a street scape once, will be interesting to see how it forms part of one in the future

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P5173354 by stephenanstiss, on Flickr

Chancellery

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P5173355 by stephenanstiss, on Flickr

Gardens and fountains

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P5173357 by stephenanstiss, on Flickr
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Old July 3rd, 2012, 08:59 PM   #247
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This pano was quite difficult to do, but looks a bit boring!

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P5173373 by stephenanstiss, on Flickr

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P5173378 by stephenanstiss, on Flickr

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P5173380 by stephenanstiss, on Flickr
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Old July 3rd, 2012, 11:05 PM   #248
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Very interesting, had no idea Germany had a seperate president, i dont think ive seen him refferenced in the UK once on the news and media, yet the French president is always talked about and their prime minister is only refferenced during elections, similarly with Italy. Funny how i walked passed her residence and didint notice it, but then 10 downing street is quite missable if it wasnt for the tourists outside te gates to the street. I also feel quite vindicaed that i thought the chancellerey looked like a modern palace
The French president has executive power though, their Prime Minister does not have an equivalent role to ours. I don't think I've ever heard the President of Italy mentioned on our news (since that is another ceremonial head of state role), only the Prime Minister.
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Old July 4th, 2012, 01:46 AM   #249
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People alway look back with rose tinted glasses, there were obviously people who benefitted through comunism but the majority didnt. The same story is still being played out in different parts of the world. If it was a better system it would still be around today, in the end it collapsed on its own rather than through war or subterfuge
I don't think you got me right.
Their deliberatly trying to brainwash people that the GDR was an absolutely nice place to live. That has nothing to do with your rose tinted glasses.
A huge amount of judges, teachers, city councils, police departments in the eastern states consists of only ex Stasi members. No matter what qualification you had back in 1990 if you didn't had any contacts you weren't about to get a good job. And these guys are today still pulling the strings.
And I know what I'm talking about I'm living there for 11 years now.
And it's not about the system it's rather about the people who are intolerant ignorant and always in a bad mood.
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Old July 4th, 2012, 01:56 AM   #250
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Yep. Italy's system is quite similar to the German one. The president (Napoletano) has mainly celebrational duties whereas the Prime Minister (Berlusconi/Monti) is the head of government. It is acutally just the same as in the UK: The Prime Minister does politics, the head of state (the Queen) celebrational duties. They all are parliamentary systems.
France however is different as it's a semi-presidential system where the president (head of state) has a lot more competences and power whereas the prime minister/the government has limited competences (mainly in domestic politics).
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Old July 4th, 2012, 10:52 AM   #251
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@Avalanix:

I completely disagree with your spiteful remarks towards Eastern Germany. I’m from Eastern Bavaria and I studied in Saxony (Zittau and Leipzig) and my wife’s from Weimar (Thuringia). All the administrative elite that has been imposed on eastern municipalities were more or less discarded Westerners! For example the upcoming mayor election in Leipzig will be fought by office holder Burkhard Jung originally from North-Rhine-Westphalia and the current police chief of Leipzig who’s originally from Upper Bavaria. These examples could be continued …

And yes I do believe that a few achievements of the GDR would at least have been worth thinking about whether they could have been adapted. But this wasn’t possible within this post-cold-war-atmosphere and the winner behavior of the western elites. The territories of the former GDR were then made available for exploitation to West German Cooperations.

Well, I’m a great admirer of the East German cityscape. In General less destroyed during and after (!) the war Saxon and Thuringian cities and the likes could preserve more of their heritage than most cities in the West: Just compare Leipzig, Dresden and Erfurt to Stuttgart, Cologne and Kassel.

@cardiff:
Very fine pictures, I’m keen on seeing further ones!
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Old July 4th, 2012, 05:28 PM   #252
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Quote:
@Avalanix:

I completely disagree with your spiteful remarks towards Eastern Germany. I’m from Eastern Bavaria and I studied in Saxony (Zittau and Leipzig) and my wife’s from Weimar (Thuringia). All the administrative elite that has been imposed on eastern municipalities were more or less discarded Westerners! For example the upcoming mayor election in Leipzig will be fought by office holder Burkhard Jung originally from North-Rhine-Westphalia and the current police chief of Leipzig who’s originally from Upper Bavaria. These examples could be continued …

And yes I do believe that a few achievements of the GDR would at least have been worth thinking about whether they could have been adapted. But this wasn’t possible within this post-cold-war-atmosphere and the winner behavior of the western elites. The territories of the former GDR were then made available for exploitation to West German Cooperations.

Well, I’m a great admirer of the East German cityscape. In General less destroyed during and after (!) the war Saxon and Thuringian cities and the likes could preserve more of their heritage than most cities in the West: Just compare Leipzig, Dresden and Erfurt to Stuttgart, Cologne and Kassel.
Now that's exactly what I meant with brainwashing.
First of all your claim the elite was replaced by westerners is completely rubbish. I live in Brandenburg and in all of the towns I know there is no one from the west. From about 150 people I know (school) nobody is from the west. (No surprise though) As you might know Matthias Platzeck president of Brandenburg and Stanislaw Tillich president of saxony are both ex Stasi members but of course they don't want the public to know. There's been a HUGE fuss going on after the reunification about getting stasi members out of power (for example former president of brandenburg manfred stolpe who brought innocent people to jail) but of course the vast majority DID stay in power. Why? Simply because all the well educated people were hired by the stasi, and they still had power even after reunification.
You're mentioned example is obviously an individual case. And these guys established a "little GDR" of course like metioned in this article in which you can see that all of the parliament of brandenburg is a former stasi employee:
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutsc...-a-664802.html
so tell me a reason why this shouldn't have be done with judges teachers city councils etc when the whole government of brandenburg consists of ex stasi members ?
Quote:
And yes I do believe that a few achievements of the GDR would at least have been worth thinking about whether they could have been adapted.
A FEW ?? People have been caught and tortured for years just because they were telling the truth!

Winner behaviours of the west ?
I don't know what you mean. It weren't the westerners who were screaming: "we are the nation"

Quote:
The territories of the former GDR were then made available for exploitation to West German Cooperations.
That's was maybe in the dreams of the easterners because there was nothing to exploit. Only very few westgerman companies invested in the east, due to lack of education, instability, corruption and of course the facilities were hopelessly outdated.
Show me some examples from 1990-1995 I'd be very curious if you would find some.
Or do you know any major eastern company today?

Cologne and Kassel (industrial town) are pretty bad examples. Try Freiburg and Aachen for instance since their size is more comparable.
Dresden has only it's city center there outer part is not taht beautiful.

Last edited by Avalanix; July 4th, 2012 at 05:50 PM.
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Old July 4th, 2012, 07:28 PM   #253
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The French president has executive power though, their Prime Minister does not have an equivalent role to ours. I don't think I've ever heard the President of Italy mentioned on our news (since that is another ceremonial head of state role), only the Prime Minister.
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Originally Posted by thun View Post
Yep. Italy's system is quite similar to the German one. The president (Napoletano) has mainly celebrational duties whereas the Prime Minister (Berlusconi/Monti) is the head of government. It is acutally just the same as in the UK: The Prime Minister does politics, the head of state (the Queen) celebrational duties. They all are parliamentary systems.
France however is different as it's a semi-presidential system where the president (head of state) has a lot more competences and power whereas the prime minister/the government has limited competences (mainly in domestic politics).
Thanks for the info, typical French doing their own thing Think i'll stay out of the east and west debate as it still seems a contentious topic! Thanks for the comments and disscussion though, it is interesting to see into a countrys demographic.
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Old July 4th, 2012, 07:29 PM   #254
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P5173381 by stephenanstiss, on Flickr

I'm assuming this is war damage, there was notable bullet holes around teh citys buildings

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P5173382 by stephenanstiss, on Flickr

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Old July 4th, 2012, 07:30 PM   #255
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P5173384 by stephenanstiss, on Flickr

Aparently not abandoned but donated to students

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P5173385 by stephenanstiss, on Flickr

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Old July 4th, 2012, 07:35 PM   #257
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Well I'm not interested in a discussion with you.

Just this one:
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Or do you know any major eastern company today?
Ask yourself about the reasons why the GDP per capita of Poland and the Czech Republic are over that one of the East German states wheras at Eastern bloc times it was the other way round. Think about it but don't write another emotionally reflex action answer.

That's it from my side on this topic!
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Old July 4th, 2012, 08:00 PM   #258
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Somehow I knew you would say that.
And by the way the GDP per capita in eastern germany is easily above the GDP per capita in czech or poland.
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Old July 5th, 2012, 08:22 AM   #259
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Now that's exactly what I meant with brainwashing.
Of course, people with a different opinion than yours are brainwashed. But you think you know everything… But the world is not so easy black and white like you want it to be. Even if everything you say would be right, the way you say it makes you an very dislikable and arrogant person in my eyes. But you are not even right in many aspects, even if you may be in some or even many.

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First of all your claim the elite was replaced by westerners is completely rubbish. I live in Brandenburg and in all of the towns I know there is no one from the west. From about 150 people I know (school) nobody is from the west.
First he claimed about Saxony, you have your experience in Brandenburg. One proposal: Don’t gernalise! As you should know, there are much differences between the regions in East Germany, even today – as you can see not only in the history books (We are the nation was mainly screamed in Saxony and this was also the industrial “heart” of the GDR, while Brandenburg was and is more red and was industrial weak compared to Saxony also in GDR time, of course there were also “strongholds” in Brandenburg). By the way – how old are you? You know 150 people in the school? Nobody said, that the westerners came with there family, but of course many were installed in important positions but still had there family in the west and got paid double for this. Of course many of the Westerners came with good will to help (and to earn more) but who are you that you dare to say people are talking nonsense, when they made the experience that sometimes the new boss was not as competent as the old one and was even working against the people around him, because he was at the same time still employed at the west German company, the East German could be a possible competitor (of course most the Western company would have won the competition nevertheless, but there are more than enough examples, where you could at least question it). And it seems many people made this experience. I was too young to see it at work, but at the University in Dresden over half the professors were from the west, because everyone who was in the SED was fired. And I can say from my experience – yes – the western Professors I had tended to be much worse in their field than the old East German professors. Thatswhy there was the saying (which of course can be also unfair) that only the people form the west came which were not good enough to be installed on a Western university to take the places in East Germany which were free because of political reasons. But I agree – this is also black-white point of view, which I dislike. By the way, of course some people who have been in the SED and also some Stasi-people made it in new positions and in cases it is not the parliament I think it is the right decision, if this people did no major terrible things. Because often this people were intelligent (sometimes even very young) and were also used to built the new society. – I hope you know that West Germany after the war used the old Nazi-civil servants which were declared (Mitläufer – followers) to build the new state. Yes – and in my opinion (I bet you will not share) the GDR was a paradies (also in morality) compared to Nazi-Germany (at least if you not look so much on the first 10 years after the war – but hey – it was directly after the war and East Germany was ruled by Russia – and did you know how Germans acted in Eastern Europe – they did it different than in Western Europe).

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That's was maybe in the dreams of the easterners because there was nothing to exploit. Only very few westgerman companies invested in the east, due to lack of education, instability, corruption and of course the facilities were hopelessly outdated.
“Lack of education, corruption” – for all people not from Germany I can only say to this nonsense, that there were massive studies over education and knowledge differences in the East and the West – as there are studies today. They never found this “lack of education in the East” The only thing the west was better was the English language. Today the education studies most often say: education is best in Bavaria and Saxony and worst in Bremen and Berlin – no East West difference rather than a North-South difference. But of course I would never dare to say the people in the North of Germany lack education. For your rude comments towards East Germans I can only say: You are an arrogant ar*x*le.

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Or do you know any major eastern company today?
And this could have no other reasons? What would be if WestGermany had to adopt an totally different system over night? Do you think if WestGermany and China would unit over night and adopt the Chines rules much of the WestGerman companys would survive? If you think so - be happy in your little world. – There are more than enough examples a Western small family company “bought” (with massive state subvention) the former state owned company in the East for nearly nothing and today make 90% of their sales with the products produces in the East (sometimes the products are still the same), but the profit flows (also statistically) to the West, where the family still has their seat and their “Marketing”. – While the ordinary people form the Ruhr-area will not have had anything from the reunification and many people in the West had to accept some additional burden, the big winners of this are also sitting in the West. – Why for example did the German industry expand so much more into Eastern Europe, to Russia and today even China than for example the UK and France? Arrogant as you are you will say this is only because the West German industry is so good and has so educated WestGermans. – I think different – without reunification – VW for example would not challenge Toyota and General Motors as biggest carmaker in the world today.

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Dresden has only it's city center there outer part is not taht beautiful.
This is a clear example that you talk like a wise over things you have no clue about. Dresden has a fine, but not so big center, the parts surrounding the center are often ugly and many of the outer parts are maybe the most beautiful of the big cities in Germany. Blasewitz, Lockwitz, Löbtau, Pieschen, Dresden-Plauen – this are all very beautiful parts of the city (and this areas are of course no new incoroperations into the city like in some big cities in the West.


@cardiff: Many thanks for your interesting pictures. Over your threads I also discovered the beauty of the UK and I hope to make a longer holiday there soon.

PS: Sorry for my not so good English, but I was educated in the GDR. But you can be assured that I am strong in other fields. I am working as engineer for a East German company, owned by a West German company, and we are making more profit than our West German sister company, but unfortunately statistically I am also working for the West.

PSS: I am also glad for reunification and think the West had overall the far better system, but such onesided argumentations, which is and was never the reality for the majority of the East Germans I also hate.

There are two great movies for foreigners about this topic:

Das Leben der Anderen - perfect moviemaking - shows the dark side of the GDR - but I think arguments I read like "This is like the GDR realy was" are often also onesided and are made very often by people who also supported George W. Bush.

Good bye Lenin: - also perfekt moviemaking - some people say it is a comedy -- but in my opionion this film manage to show the GDR far better than the Live of Others -- in this movie, the dark side of the GDR is also shown (that who say different have maybe not seen the movie) but it also shows other aspects -- of lose of identity, of family and so on - also higly recommended.
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Last edited by Coihaique; July 5th, 2012 at 08:33 AM.
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Old July 5th, 2012, 10:37 AM   #260
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Originally Posted by Coihaique View Post
@cardiff: Many thanks for your interesting pictures. Over your threads I also discovered the beauty of the UK and I hope to make a longer holiday there soon.

PS: Sorry for my not so good English, but I was educated in the GDR. But you can be assured that I am strong in other fields. I am working as engineer for a East German company, owned by a West German company, and we are making more profit than our West German sister company, but unfortunately statistically I am also working for the West.

PSS: I am also glad for reunification and think the West had overall the far better system, but such onesided argumentations, which is and was never the reality for the majority of the East Germans I also hate.

There are two great movies for foreigners about this topic:

Das Leben der Anderen - perfect moviemaking - shows the dark side of the GDR - but I think arguments I read like "This is like the GDR realy was" are often also onesided and are made very often by people who also supported George W. Bush.

Good bye Lenin: - also perfekt moviemaking - some people say it is a comedy -- but in my opionion this film manage to show the GDR far better than the Live of Others -- in this movie, the dark side of the GDR is also shown (that who say different have maybe not seen the movie) but it also shows other aspects -- of lose of identity, of family and so on - also higly recommended.
Thanks! I guess there are still alot of wounds to heal, and understanding as well. Reading between the lines i can see that maybe east Germans are upset in their lives being deemed sub standard by west Germans, and some how implied that they were worse or less significant somehow, however unintentional it may be. I may be wrong on this?
Glad you had a chance to look through my UK thread and its links, i love the UK and there are some truely spectacular places as there is across the whole of Europe adn teh world. I'm looking forward to my trip in August to the east of England.
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