IRAQ | Health Sector

[Spin Cycle]

Originally Posted by Al-Hashimi

Yes, I supported the noble resistance against the American invadors and their allies. That resistance who only targeted the invaders and not civilian Iraqi's be it Kurd, Sunni or Shi'ah. You have a problem with that? I rather support them than traitors of the nation and the Arab world.

Yes, you are not secterian - that's why you have written secterian posts.

Which foreigners in the Middle East are you talking about? Since when have Sunni ARABS in Iraq become foreigners? Or other Arabs for that matter.

Iranis are foreigners in Iraq because they are not Arab and not even Semetic, they don't speak our language, nor share our culture, customs and they don't even look like us. Also they are not native to the area that is now Iraq.

you mean like our police, army, translators, civil servants.....


And what are you talking about, I said foreigners in the Middle East, why are you talking about Sunni Iraqis?

[Al-Hashimi]

Originally Posted by Spin Cycle

you mean like our police, army, translators, civil servants.....


And what are you talking about, I said foreigners in the Middle East, why are you talking about Sunni Iraqis?

Allies meaning the coalition forces. Also take a closer look at "I supported" and the part that I have always mentioned - no killings of civilians be it Kurd, Sunni or Shi'ah.

The war is over hence "I supported".

Who are the foreigners you are referring to in the Middle East then?

[Spin Cycle]

Originally Posted by Al-Hashimi

Allies meaning the coalition forces. Also take a closer look at "I supported" and the part that I have always mentioned - no killings of civilians be it Kurd, Sunni or Shi'ah.

The war is over hence "I supported".

Who are the foreigners you are referring to in the Middle East then?

the non-Iraqis.

So who are the traitors to the nation and the "Arab world"?

[Al-Hashimi]

Originally Posted by Spin Cycle

the non-Iraqis.

So who are the traitors to the nation and the "Arab world"?

So an Arab living just across the current border in Jordan, Syria and KSA - a border that was made by the British imperialists 90 years ago who belong to the same Arab tribes is now a foreigner?

I can't imagine how you feel about Kurds, Turkmens and Assyrians then.

Do you feel closer to a Iraqi Turkmen as an Iraqi Arab rather than an Arab from one of our neighbouring Arab countries who share the same origin, langauge, culture, customs etc. and in many cases even the same tribe?

Who do you think? That country and their allies who occupied Iraq for 9 years, destroyed it completely and killed thousands of Iraqi's in the process.

I support Arab unity because I am an Arab like 80 percent of all Iraqi's are.

I also support a united Iraq that has a non-secterian policy but that seems impossible right now and in the near future.

[Spin Cycle]

Originally Posted by Al-Hashimi

So an Arab living just across the current border in Jordan, Syria and KSA - a border that was made by the British imperialists 90 years ago who belong to the same Arab tribes is now a foreigner?

I can't imagine how you feel about Kurds, Turkmens and Assyrians then.

Do you feel closer to a Iraqi Turkmen as an Iraqi Arab rather than an Arab from one of our neighbouring Arab countries who share the same origin, langauge, culture, customs etc. and in many cases even the same tribe?

Who do you think? That country and their allies who occupied Iraq for 9 years, destroyed it completely and killed thousands of Iraqi's in the process.

I support Arab unity because I am an Arab like 80 percent of all Iraqi's are.

I also support a united Iraq that has a non-secterian policy but that seems impossible right now and in the near future.

You really don't get this concept of nationalism do you? I don't give a shit if someone is a Kurd, Turkmen or Assyrian.

What I find odd is how you place so much emphasis on tribes. 90 years is a long time, and the history of Iraq is very different to the history of the other Arab states. The shared experience is a differentiating factor, not some familial connection from a hundred+ years ago.

As for Arab unity, well, we have received Arab terrorism, sectarianism, and support for tyrants, and I for one am not interested. I would much rather have a close connection with South Korea than people across the border in Saudi Arabia or Jordan.

[Al-Hashimi]

Originally Posted by Spin Cycle

You really don't get this concept of nationalism do you? I don't give a shit if someone is a Kurd, Turkmen or Assyrian.

What I find odd is how you place so much emphasis on tribes. 90 years is a long time, and the history of Iraq is very different to the history of the other Arab states. The shared experience is a differentiating factor, not some familial connection from a hundred+ years ago.

As for Arab unity, well, we have received Arab terrorism, sectarianism, and support for tyrants, and I for one am not interested. I would much rather have a close connection with South Korea than people across the border in Saudi Arabia or Jordan.

No, I don't because I have already clearly stated that I am not a nationalist and that ideology is alien for me due to my mixed background. I hope for Arab unity in the Middle East not some regional/counstructed border's made up by the British imperialists 90 years ago.

Yes, I do find tribal unity a good thing. I have much more in common with a Saudi Al-Shammari than an Iraqi Turkmen.

That's because I am not a nationalist but that does not mean that I don't care about Iraq and it's people. I already told you this.
Iraqi unity is as important. But unity does not equal blind nationalism and hatred for other countries be it Arab countries as Iraq is or other non-Arab countries

Apart from that I find it strange that you proclaim Iraqi nationalism when 80 percent of all Iraqis are Arabs (I suspect you are an Arab also) but despite this you consider the same Arab people living across a border that was made up by foreigners 90 years ago as alien to you....

May I ask which Arab tribe you belong to?

[Spin Cycle]

We have family friends who are Iraqi Turkman and Kurds (infact, some relatives). They are almost indistinguishable from us. We have the same history and concerns about Iraq. What does some guy on the other side of the Arabian peninsula mean, just because they have the same surname? The Kurds and Turkman even speak in the same accent, whereas the Saudi, you woudn't know him from Adam.

I'm from the Khazali tribe (sometimes spelt Khuza'i)

[Al-Hashimi]

Originally Posted by Spin Cycle

We have family friends who are Iraqi Turkman and Kurds (infact, some relatives). They are almost indistinguishable from us. We have the same history and concerns about Iraq. What does some guy on the other side of the Arabian peninsula mean, just because they have the same surname? The Kurds and Turkman even speak in the same accent, whereas the Saudi, you woudn't know him from Adam.

I'm from the Khazali tribe (sometimes spelt Khuza'i)

No, they don't have the same history since they are a completely different race. They just happened to live in Iraq. They have a different origin, language, culture, customs etc. Iraqi Turkmens came to Iraq just 400-500 years ago. They don't even look like Arabs.

Other side of the Peninsula? What are you talking about? Half of Iraq is part of the Arabian Peninsula/Arabian Desert. Whole of Iraq belong to the Arabian plate. 80 percent of all Iraqis are Arabs. We have MUCH more in common with Arabs than some Turkic people living in Iraq for a few hundred years. Who are you trying to fool.

Don't spread nonsense because you hate non-Iraqi Arabs. 80 percent of all Iraqis are Arabs. Iraq is the homeland of the Semetic race and the homeland of the first known Semetic culture and language (Akkadian).

It's just strange that an Iraqi Arab who calls himself a nationalist is so much against other's from his own people (other Arabs living in NEIGHBOURING Arab countries) because of recent politics.

Anyway it's a strange discussion in my eyes. How can an Arab like yourself hate your own people - other Arabs? I guess you would have loved them if must were Shia's and not Sunnis.

It's strange to see some Iraqi Shi'ah Arabs denounce their own heritage when somebody talks about Arab unity but when it suits them they boost about their Arab heritage (usually when they speak with other non-Arab Muslims)

You don't ever hear about any Iraqi Sunni Arabs that wish death/destruction to their Arab brothers just across the border. Even if they are not from the same tribe.

Anyway it's your own business who you hate or not but don't except other Arabs (be it Iraqis or some other Arabs) not to react when someone else wishes death and destruction to other Arab nations.

I don't know the history of the Khazali tribe but I guess it's an Arab tribe and not a Turkmen or Kurdish tribe. Do you also wish death and destruction to Arab's from the Khazali tribe who live outside of Iraq?

Iraqi is an nationality and not an ethnicity but we are all proud of the country and it's history. But Iraqi Arabs are ARABS who live in Iraq. You can love both the country you are from/live in and the ethnic group you belong to and it's history and I am sure that must do exactly that. At least they are proud of their history, tribes etc. and look past recent secterianism and politics.

Anything else would be very strange.

[makaay31]

Originally Posted by Al-Hashimi

You don't ever hear about any Iraqi Sunni Arabs that wish death/destruction to their Arab brothers just across the border. Even if they are not from the same tribe.

Lol, are you sure? I just have read something like that on the forum..

[Spin Cycle]

Are you serious? Kurds and Turkomen who were our neighbours in Baghdad, have the same dialect, accent, went to the same schools, universities, mosques, suffered the same tyranny, wars, displacements and hardships...and have been in Iraq "only" 400 years!?

OK, this really is going nowhere. The Khazali is Arabic, but I don't care about that, nor about Arab identity.

And no, I don't want all Iraqis to be Shia, I want them all to be atheists, but if I had to choose a religion, I would go for Christianity.

[Al-Hashimi]

Originally Posted by makaay31

Lol, are you sure? I just have read something like that on the forum..

Yes, I am pretty sure. Deep down inside I don't think any Iraqi Arab be it Sunni or Shi'ah wishes death and destruction to their own people in other countries.

Spin Cycle:

Yes, they live in Iraq and have lived in Iraq in recent history. Of course they will be part of the culture in Iraq - which is 80 percent Arab.

I thought we were talking about who we had more in common with. And that's of course Arabs and not people that are not related to Arabs.

I have nothing in common with a Yazidi (Indo-Iranian people) despite them living in Northern Iraq and being Iraqis. Their origin is different, they speak a different langauge, they have a different culture and customs, their religion is different etc.

Just like Russians and Chechens have little in common but both are Russian citizens.

Once again - Iraqi is not a race it's a nationality. There is a huge difference between that.

Ok, so the Khazali tribe is Arabic whether you like it or not. That means you are an Iraqi Arab. Iraqi by nationality and Arab by ethnicity like 80 percent of all Iraqis.

Now when we have that shorted out then how can you hate your own people? Do your parents also hate their own people and culture because of recent politics and secterianism?

Just because you don't care about your people and family history other's are not bound to do the same. You are even an atheist. So how representative do you think you are to other Iraqi's when you are against Arabs (your own people and the ethnicity of 80 percent of all Iraqis) and the religion (Islam) of 98 percent of all Iraqis?

Please understand the fact that I find your arguments/views alien to me and the vast majority of Arabs be it Iraqi or Syrian etc.

[Spin Cycle]

yes, I get it, Iraq is 80% Arab, you don't have to keep repeating it. I don't have a problem being an Arab, I just don't care.

And you really think 98% is Muslim? There is almost certainly a much higher percentage of non-believers, but for obvious reasons, people don't maker it public.

In fact, I think Iraqi identity is strong, and the trend toward non-belief perhaps even stronger. Even the believers are not that religious. So I'm not as non-representative as you imagine.

[Chounz]

Honestly I as an Iraqi Arab don't feel I have anything at all in common with a Saudi. Like Spin Cycle said, having the same last name as someone means nothing to me.

We have a more similar culture to Syrians and Jordanians for example than Khaleejis but I would still relate much more with an Iraqi of any ethnicity (Not including Kurds from Kurdistan) than a non-Iraqi Arab. There is literally no difference between me and an Iraqi Mandean from Baghdad or even an Iraqi Assyrian from Baghdad. They are my people.

I don't see how ethnicity or religion matters.

Originally Posted by Spin Cycle

Are you serious? Kurds and Turkomen who were our neighbours in Baghdad, have the same dialect, accent, went to the same schools, universities, mosques, suffered the same tyranny, wars, displacements and hardships...and have been in Iraq "only" 400 years!?

This is exactly how I feel.

Hashimi there is nothing particularly wrong with how you think of it I guess it's just a matter of personal preference; but I'm sure that if you had grown up in Baghdad you would not feel this way.

[Al-Hashimi]

Originally Posted by Spin Cycle

yes, I get it, Iraq is 80% Arab, you don't have to keep repeating it. I don't have a problem being an Arab, I just don't care.

And you really think 98% is Muslim? There is almost certainly a much higher percentage of non-believers, but for obvious reasons, people don't maker it public.

In fact, I think Iraqi identity is strong, and the trend toward non-belief perhaps even stronger. Even the believers are not that religious. So I'm not as non-representative as you imagine.

Ok, but it seemed like you ignored it. Fair enough but how can you be indifferent? It makes little sense in my eyes. You can change appearance, religion, social status, jobs even wife but you can't change your origin.

98 percent regard themselves as Muslims - that's the most important thing. Some are more religious some less. Other's identity themselves in a Islamic cultural context. Even all those atheist's I know have respect for their origin/culture and if they should choose a religion/culture to identify with they would still choose their own even when atheists.

Of course Iraqi identity is strong. Like any other identity today. That's not the point.

Also, as I have told you 3 times now, then you can love your country Iraq and it's people but also your ethnicity (Arab).
I don't know if you are born in Iraq or somewhere else but I know several Arabs who were born in the West. They love their ethnicity (Arab) and the countries of their parents AND the country of their birth.
Just like most Iraqis love Iraq and their origin (Arab, Kurd, Assyrian, Turkmen)

I hope you understand what I am trying to tell you here.

[makaay31]

Thank you Chounz, well said

[Al-Hashimi]

Originally Posted by Chounz

Honestly I as an Iraqi Arab don't feel I have anything at all in common with a Saudi. Like Spin Cycle said, having the same last name as someone means nothing to me.

We have a more similar culture to Syrians and Jordanians for example than Khaleejis but I would still relate much more with an Iraqi of any ethnicity (Not including Kurds from Kurdistan) than a non-Iraqi Arab. There is literally no difference between me and an Iraqi Mandean from Baghdad or even an Iraqi Assyrian from Baghdad. They are my people.

I don't see how ethnicity or religion matters.



This is exactly how I feel.

Hashimi there is nothing particularly wrong with how you think of it I guess it's just a matter of personal preference; but I'm sure that if you had grown up in Baghdad you would not feel this way.

Seriously Chounz? So you don't realize how similar Arab culture is in all Arab countries? You don't find it fantastic that you share a origin, language, customs, culture and often tribal relations with another Arab be it Jordanian or Saudi? How many people can say that about a "stranger" from another country?

If you travelled to let's say Chile and meet a Saudi would you not feel closer to him than if you meet a Chinese for those reasons I mentioned (common language, culture, customes, origin and often tribal connections)?

Of course every Arab country has it's own distinct culture. I mean that's the case in Iraq also among Arabs and different provinces. That's only a good thing. But that's not the point.

80 percent of all Iraqis are still Arabs and we share so many things in common more than the opposite. Especially us Arabs from the Middle East.

You mentioned Mandean and Assyrian. They are Semetic like us Arabs, have a similar language and have lived in the area for thousands of years.

But of course you will feel more close to an Iraqi than anyone else outside of the country. That's only a normal thing. Anything else would be strange. And I have never disputed that.

An Anbari is even more close to an Anbari than an Basrawi. An Iraqi Arab from Ramadi is more close to an Iraqi Arab from Ramadi than an Iraqi Arab from Fallujah despite them being two very similar cities.

I am talking about it in a wider perspective and my posts was a reply to Spin Cycle's posts about him being completely indifferent to his people (Arabs).

And I would probably have slightly different opinion if I had lived in Baghdad all my life but I am also 100 percent sure that the essence of my point's that I have made in this debate would be the same.

And I love all different ethnic groups living in Iraq I am just saying that I as a partial Iraqi Arab have more in common with Iraqi Arabs and other Arabs then let's say Kurds, Turkmens and Yazidis. But that does not mean that I don't regard them as Iraqis.

I am sorry if someone misunderstood my posts.

[Chounz]

There are exceptions though.

For example, people in Anbar province would probably relate more with people in Deir ez Zor province across the Syrian border because they are literally the same people divided apart by the border.. Families were split apart when the border was created. The people of Deir ez Zor are practically Iraqis.. same dialect same culture same everything. The cities in Deir Ez Zor along the Euphrates river are a continuation of all the cities in in Anbar on the the Euphrates; on the opposite side of the border.

Also, Anbar is still sort of a tribal area as opposed to big cities in Iraq. And like I said the same families or tribes were divided into seperate regions by the border. This is why Anbaris might feel closer to Deir ez Zoris than say a Kurd from Baghdad.

The same would not apply to Jordan or Saudi Arabia because their closest cities to Iraq are extremely far the border and so it's pretty obvious that it's a completely different region with a completely different people.

You're also forgetting that Mesopotamia is a completely different region from the Levant or the Gulf (Hejaz/Najd,etc.) Iraqis are people of the two rivers, Tigris and Euphrates, all our religions and ethnicities have intermarried and mixed with each other for centuries. We as Iraqis are a different people from other Arabs, I just don't see how we would have more in common with other Arabs than with each other.

[Al-Hashimi]

Nobody disputed that Iraqi Arabs are more close to their own than other Arabs. Saudis be it Hejazi, Najdi, Northern Bedouin close to Iraq and Jordan, from the Eastern Province or Aseer and Najran. All 5 different people but due to Saudi Arabia being one country for 86 years now they are more close to each other than Iraqi and Jordanian Bedouins, Yemenis or Bahrainis etc.

Brother, fact still remains that 80 percent of all Iraqis are Arabs and those Arabs are more close to other Arabs than people living in Iraq that have no connection to Arabs other than living in a country with a majority of Arabs.

Also let me not mention tribal connections or genetics that show that Iraqi Arabs are very close to other Arabs (basically same people) from the Middle East. As an example you have 3 million Iraqi Arabs from the Al-Shammar tribe. In Saudi Arabia you have 2 million. It's the same tribe and they are related. Can you say the same about a Kurd, Turkmen, Yazidi or Assyrian other than they both have a Iraqi passport and SOME have intermarried?

It's only a minority that have intermarried and that's mostly in the North (Arab-Kurdish marriages).

In the South, West, East and Southeast of Iraq that's a very rare thing. If there are intermarriages it's between Iraqi Arab Sunnis and Iraqi Arab Shia's.

Also, all Arabs are mixed. In Yemen most have mixed with East Africans. In Saudi Arabia virtually everyone that borders Saudi Arabia, in Oman Baluch people and other immigrants, in Levant even more.

I am talking about Arabs from the Middle East. Not Morrocans or Algerians for example.

I think all this I have said can't be denied but at the same time it's true that Iraqi Arabs have more in common with other Iraqi Arabs than other Arabs. That's the case with EVERY Arab nation.

But that does by no means equal that we have little/nothing in common with each other which is obviously nonsense. We have the most important things in common such as origin, language, culture, custome, religion and very often tribal connections. What more do we need to deem each other similar? The same passport?

[Chounz]

Originally Posted by Al-Hashimi

Seriously Chounz? So you don't realize how similar Arab culture is in all Arab countries? You don't find it fantastic that you share a origin, language, customs, culture and often tribal relations with another Arab be it Jordanian or Saudi? How many people can say that about a "stranger" from another country?

Yeah I know what you mean, it is definitely really strange, in a good way, it's nice.. but that's it.. it's just nice. I do have some Arab pride. I like visiting Arab countries and meeting Arabs because we of course do have a similar culture and history. But I wouldn't be able to relate with a non-Iraqi arab more than with another Iraqi (no matter what ethnicity) It's your own people, you can't help it.

Originally Posted by Al-Hashimi

And I love all different ethnic groups living in Iraq I am just saying that I as a partial Iraqi Arab have more in common with Iraqi Arabs and other Arabs then let's say Kurds, Turkmens and Yazidis. But that does not mean that I don't regard them as Iraqis.

That's fine. That's just how you feel, I'm sure others feel that way too. It's not a issue.

[Al-Hashimi]

Originally Posted by Chounz

Yeah I know what you mean, it is definitely really strange, in a good way, it's nice.. but that's it.. it's just nice. I do have some Arab pride. I like visiting Arab countries and meeting Arabs because we of course do have a similar culture and history. But I wouldn't be able to relate with a non-Iraqi arab more than with another Iraqi (no matter what ethnicity) It's your own people, you can't help it.



That's fine. That's just how you feel, I'm sure others feel that way too. It's not a issue.

Well then we agree with everything expect the part of feeling more close with a Yazidi than an Syrian Arab for example just because the former has an Iraqi passport.

Otherwise we are in complete agreement. And I am not an Arab nationalist I am just proud of being an Arab and find it sad when other Arabs (Iraqi Arabs) feel indifferent considering our own countries great Arab/Islamic past that only Saudi Arabia can rival. Just like I am proud about my mother's European ancestry (Spanish and French). I think all people are proud of their ancestry/countries no matter how many bad things have happened. Even if you want to renounce it there is some part in you that says it's wrong. I know this because once when I was younger I sometimes felt embarrased about being an Arab due to the political climate. I regret that very much today. But well that's my own personal story but I feel it's the same with everyone else, Arab or Mongolian.

And I also know that the recent secterianism have a lot to say in that part. I understand this to an extent.

For example I fully understand why Iraqi Arab Shia's can have a hatred towards Saudi Arabs or Iraqi Sunni Arabs that are Wahhabiyya and who have blown themselves up in Iraq. But that's not reason enough to renounce your origin.

And I also know that there is much to be sad about when being an Arab especially in our times. But Insha'Allah it will improve.

Thank you for a nice and civil discussion. Also to you Spin Cycle.