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Old April 5th, 2016, 03:17 AM   #41
Anthony Parrington
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Thank you, I am aware that the cities are in different parts of the country.

I think if you view my message again, I think you will see that I was posting about the performance characteristics of the f.c. tram and the speculation on whether the orange tram depicted in this thread is either: the 15T; or prototype 27T; and whether the production 27T f.c. tram uses a pantograph to draw down power from the catenary system, or not.

Based on the information that is available the former rolling stock manufacturer was based in Qingdao, and to my knowledge that is where the prototype f.c. tram was originally assembled and/or unveiled [Railway Gazette, 2015]. The subsequent deployment of the f.c. tram network is reported to occur between the two cities of Foshan, and Yunfu, although to my knowledge the f.c. tram infrastructure was still under development. If you can elaborate on whether this network has deployed a catenary system or not, no doubt this will assist in advancing the discussion.

There is also limited information available on who is building the Hydrogen refuelling station, and what refuelling standard they are building to. As you point out the information available from the f.c. manufacturer is also limited, apart from preliminary details that describe how many units have been sold to various: rolling stock; and bus manufacturers in China, and the specification of these units.

Further investigation reveals commentary on the 15T design from Skoda Transportation that is written in Czech, with additional descriptions on the 27T in Chinese. As I am not a native speaker of either language, I'm sure there is more information available although we may be missing it. Perhaps you can assist?

As for the discussion on the ongoing development of fuel cells in trams, there are only a few examples in operation around the world including in: Aruba; Dubai; and another earlier prototype developed by FEVE / Fenit rail in Spain. This explains my interest in the CRRC f.c. tram, as the details reported represent a significant improvement in performance over previous designs.

For those interested The Downtown Dubai trolley is documented in other threads on Skyscrapercity, although there is limited detail that describes the trolleys specification, that is otherwise available from the manufacturer.

Other interesting information may be found in the publications from the Hydrail dot org research group [Hoffrichter, 2013] whose PhD has documented similar projects where a hybrid f.c. / battery electric drive has been combined with a catenary / pantograph system.
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Old April 5th, 2016, 01:40 PM   #42
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You wrote "in the Qingdao / Foshan area", which made me think you thought they were the same place.

I'm afraid I can't help you with any design or technology questions, but other people on the thread might be able to.
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Old April 25th, 2016, 10:36 AM   #43
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Woow, that is great to see that after Dalian, Hong Kong, Shanghai, Shenyang, Suzhou & Tianjin - Qingdao is the seventh Chinese city which has both tram and metro !!!

Now it has overtaken Russia, where are six cities where both tram & metro is running.
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Old April 27th, 2016, 11:35 PM   #44
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China adds new cities as operating metro system every year, this time is in Qingdao.

This is very good sign that even not so much big cities now constructing metro systems, like Qingdao, Suzhou etc. Nodoubt China is now the heaven of metro fans around the world.

Already they have planned long term plan. Line 3 will be extended to southwest; the southwestern extension will touch the suburban rail network at southwestern terminus, and will cross all other planned lines. Line 1 will run from north to south-west, will cross all other planned lines and suburban rail line two times. Line 2 will run from north to south-west as an inverted G shape line by avoiding the city centre and crossing Ganjiang river, and will cross all other planned lines, and also cross the suburban rail line two times. Line 4 will run from east to south, by covering city centre, and will also connect other planned lines. Line 5 will be shortest, from north-west to south-east, which will also connect other planned lines, and suburban train line.

By the way, what is the difference between M lines and R lines?
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Old April 28th, 2016, 12:16 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Dennis.Deng View Post
Well guys ... I have just been to Qingdao, and I still don't understand why a fuel cell line ...

a) would fully be equipped with cartenary, for the COMPLETE route and
b) trams would use the pantograph for the COMPLETE route

I honestly think, there is some wrong information circulating ... maybe it is mixed up, because both trams are manufactured in Qingdao ?
The white trams in the fleet are conventional, running on OHW. There is only one experimental hydrogen tram, the orange one. It will take the opportunity of this line to be trialled in service.

The trams are based on Skoda 15T but are classified 27T in Skoda typology which is basically 15T for China.
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Old April 28th, 2016, 03:10 AM   #46
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Been there nearly whole day ... All trams that day were orange, no white one visible ...
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Old April 28th, 2016, 04:02 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Dennis.Deng View Post
Been there nearly whole day ... All trams that day were orange, no white one visible ...
OK maybe the colours are not divided like this. But definitely only one tram has hydrogen, the rest are conventional OHW.
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Old April 28th, 2016, 05:44 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashis Mitra View Post
C
By the way, what is the difference between M lines and R lines?
M lines are urban area lines R lines are lines that reach the outer suburban / satellite cities around Qingdao.
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Old April 28th, 2016, 08:36 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashis Mitra View Post
China adds new cities as operating metro system every year, this time is in Qingdao.

This is very good sign that even not so much big cities now constructing metro systems, like Qingdao, Suzhou etc. Nodoubt China is now the heaven of metro fans around the world.

Already they have planned long term plan. Line 3 will be extended to southwest; the southwestern extension will touch the suburban rail network at southwestern terminus, and will cross all other planned lines. Line 1 will run from north to south-west, will cross all other planned lines and suburban rail line two times. Line 2 will run from north to south-west as an inverted G shape line by avoiding the city centre and crossing Ganjiang river, and will cross all other planned lines, and also cross the suburban rail line two times. Line 4 will run from east to south, by covering city centre, and will also connect other planned lines. Line 5 will be shortest, from north-west to south-east, which will also connect other planned lines, and suburban train line.

By the way, what is the difference between M lines and R lines?
There are a grand total of 16 lines planned. And now they have unified the numbering, so no more M lines and R lines.
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Old April 30th, 2016, 07:27 AM   #50
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That's great to hear that no difference will be in M & R.
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Old May 1st, 2016, 03:16 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony Parrington View Post
As a Postgraduate in Materials Science and Engineering who has been investigating various: Hydrogen vehicles; Hydrogen production processes; and the design of Hydrogen vehicle refuelling infrastructure [i.e cars, buses, and trams] in my research dissertation, I have also expressed an interest in this project and have been actively seeking additional information that may assist me to complete my work.

The CRRC Qingdao Sifang fuel cell tram is therefore quite an interesting example of emerging tram technology, and whilst I have not visited Qingdao to discuss the project with the Chief Engineer in person, I have made multiple attempts to learn about the system dynamics of the tram, as well as the scale of the refuelling infrastructure to facilitate its operation. To date this has been predominantly through some international students who have studied at my University (and who also hail from Qingdao), but also through some international colleagues in the Hydrogen standards, and safety area, whom I met at the 2015 WHTC Sydney event.

On this basis I could comment on the speculation on whether the orange CRRC Qingdao Sifang carriage depicted above, is the same prototype model tram as documented in another thread [attached], but also whether the catenary / pantograph system is required for the f.c. trams operation, or not. Therefore I would speculate that the production model may use both a catenary system, and the fuel cell electric drive for the tram, but if someone else can clarify this matter categorically, I am sure that other members of the international Hydrogen community would also be interested in viewing a comprehensive case study on this project.

Thus after comparing the performance characteristics of the Ballard fuel cells that are employed in various hybrid fuel cell bus projects around the world, with the stated performance characteristics of the prototype f.c. tram, my understanding is that the prototype tram consumes around 1000kg of Hydrogen to travel 100km, with a refuelling time of three minutes. This information is attributed to the Chief Engineer Mr Liang Jianying of the CSR Qingdao Sifang company, although subsequently the CSR Qingdoa Sifang company has merged with another state run enterprise to become CRRC Sifang, so it is unclear whether the same team remains in place in the new company structure.

As for the Hydrogen refuelling capability stated, this directly relates to my studies, as a fleet of 8 - 10 trams would require a large refuelling station to keep them in operation. Moreover in considering how large this would need to be, the rough numbers indicate a refuelling infrastructure an order of magnitude larger than that put in place by Air Products for the BC Transit Hydrogen bus project deployed during the Vancouver Winter Olympics, which was the world largest with a reported refuelling rate of 45kg of gaseous Hydrogen per bus in 10 minutes, repeated sequentially for the 18 buses in daily operation [Eudy, Post, 2014].

Furthermore in considering the size and/or quantity of Hydrogen tanks required to hold 1000kg of Hydrogen for the tram, vs 56kg employed by the BC Transit fuel cell bus, the stated refuelling times of three minutes seems implausible, as there are only a few manufacturers in the world who make Hydrogen refuelling equipment, and thus the performance characteristics of this equipment is governed by engineering standards that ensure a safe refuelling operation. This was the thinking of an international expert in Hydrogen safety standards, although if someone involved in the project can clarify then I would be most interested in how the CSR / CRRC engineers have solved the problem.

So based on my research thus far, there is indeed a prototype f.c. tram in operation in the Qingdao / Foshan area, although I have a number of questions myself on whether the tram employs liquid, or gaseous Hydrogen in it's operation to meet the stated refuelling performance criteria, and range. This may explain the possibility of having a mix of old, and new technologies in the production model, as this would facilitate a greater range for a loaded tram, as opposed to the performance characteristics / criteria evaluated in an engineering model for a multi-modal refuelling infrastructure to service buses, cars, and trams.

Hopefully others can comment on a similarly informed basis....
Good post!
Maybe this can help you, though I don't know they talk bout facts or wishes:

"Yutong ZK6125FCEVG1 fuel cell bus is equipped with eight 140L hydrogen bottles [...] After a hydrogen refill, which takes only about ten minutes [...] is able to drive 300 km continuously".

http://en.yutong.com/pressmedia/yuto...BJnkfEQIr.html
.
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Old May 21st, 2016, 05:25 AM   #52
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Permanent magnet straddled-type monorail train unveiled in E China
2016-05-19 21:21:35

QINGDAO, May 19, 2016 (Xinhua) -- Photo taken on May 19, 2016 shows a permanent magnet straddled -type monorail train in Qingdao, east China's Shandong Province. The train, produced by CRRC Qingdao Sifang Co., Ltd., is the first permanent magnet straddled -type monorail train independently developed by China. The delivery of the train here on Thursday marked a key breakthrough of China in straddled -type monorail train industry.








http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/ph..._135372785.htm
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Old May 21st, 2016, 07:40 PM   #53
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How does it work? Is it a more affordable, slower version of TransRapid technology?
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Old May 21st, 2016, 09:53 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silly_Walks View Post
How does it work? Is it a more affordable, slower version of TransRapid technology?
"Permanent magnet" type implies it's an "Inductrack" System ( possibly "Inductrack II", see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inductrack ) - see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maglev#Evaluation.

Theoretically, less power consumption and faster ( not the objective right now).

http://www.autoinsurancecenter.com/t...the-future.htm
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Old May 22nd, 2016, 04:13 PM   #55
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If I correctly understood, in this case permanent magnet are used into the electric motors and in every other respect the vehicle is a conventional straddle beam monorail running on tires and not a sort of Maglev. In this video there's a short introduction to the product.

Moreover, the train was presented in Quingdao because the there's the manufacturer's (CRRC Qingdao Sifang Co., Ltd.) registered office, and not because the city will use it on its mass transit; therefore, it's rather wrong posting about it in this thread.
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Old May 22nd, 2016, 07:18 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yak79 View Post


If I correctly understood, in this case permanent magnet are used into the electric motors and in every other respect the vehicle is a conventional straddle beam monorail running on tires and not a sort of Maglev. In this video there's a short introduction to the product.

Moreover, the train was presented in Quingdao because the there's the manufacturer's (CRRC Qingdao Sifang Co., Ltd.) registered office, and not because the city will use it on its mass transit; therefore, it's rather wrong posting about it in this thread.

"Motor" is the key word here.

"permanent magnet motor traction" @ 0:19 in the video.





And that permanent magnet traction motor is likely the TQ-100.


The TQ-100 permanent magnet synchronous traction motor is the core power unit for the new generation of urban rail vehicles. It is small, lightweight, highly efficient and features a simple structure, reduced energy consumption and increased environmental credentials. It can be applied to all new generation urban rail vehicles that integrate super capacitor and 100% low floor technologies. ...

The TQ-100 permanent magnet synchronous traction motor has been applied on modern tramcars with energy storage, which is a new type of rail transit vehicle that integrates super capacitor and 100% low-floor technologies. It features an independent catenary, highly efficient energy recycling, no pollution, aesthetic appearance, passenger comfort and low cost. Following the first production run, the product will initially be used on tramcars with energy storage in the Haizhu District of Guangzhou and Yinzhou District of Ningbo, and then in Gunming and Wuhan. By the end of 2015, new 250km/h rail transit lines will be constructed in Guangzhou, Ningbo, Wuhan, Kunming, Baotou, Xiangyang, Lvliang, etc., which will open up a significant market for the product.


- http://www.csrgc.com.cn/g4530.aspx
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Old May 31st, 2016, 09:35 AM   #57
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Good post!
Maybe this can help you, though I don't know they talk bout facts or wishes:

"Yutong ZK6125FCEVG1 fuel cell bus is equipped with eight 140L hydrogen bottles [...] After a hydrogen refill, which takes only about ten minutes [...] is able to drive 300 km continuously".


Thank you for providing some information with regards to the Yutong f.c. bus. Having followed the technologies development since 2003, and the pioneering Icelandic New Energy project in Reykjavik, Iceland, I am aware of many of the past f.c. bus projects internationally (including the small fleet implemented around the time of the 2008 Beijing Olympics), and some of the academic work to improve the performance characteristics of f.c. buses manufactured in China, instead of the local manufacturers importing all of the key components from overseas.

For example in one paper I viewed, a comparison between the earlier Olympic f.c. bus fleet, and various electric, and prototype f.c. buses already in operation was presented, with many of the calculations recorded sequentially so that the reader could follow: the considerations of larger fuel cells; hybrid battery / fuel cell systems; regenerative braking; and the capacity of the Hydrogen storage tanks on a given vehicle's range. Unfortunately the website that hosted this paper has now been taken down, so I'm not sure whether the paper is still available, or not on-line.

With this the case I have found that there are incremental improvements to the technologies over time, with each new f.c. bus fleet project performing better than the last, and as this information becomes available it is a resource that may be cited in one's postgraduate study. This was why I cited the BC Transit example because the reports are publicly available, and the performance details of their fleet reviewed independantly from actual operating data.

For those interested in the area (i.e. hybrid f.c. bus technology), they may like to read up on the most recent f.c. project in Aberdeen, Scotland to note further performance improvements by comparison; but as this thread is about the proposed f.c. tram in Foshan, and Yunfu, then the criteria is different as the tram weighs more, and the power output of the fuel cells designated for the tram is larger than that for a bus. So for the moment at least, we need to wait until the project is up and running to see how it goes.

If you are like me, the advancements in the technology is of interest from a professional stand point, and thus I await with anticipation on the release of the f.c. tram's performance data once up, and running. Thus I congratulate the teams of engineers involved in the prototype's development, no doubt the investigations required are significant, and engineering considerations quite complicated overall.
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Old July 25th, 2016, 05:26 PM   #58
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National Development & Reform Commission has approved Phase 2 of Qingdao Metro:
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/u...-approved.html

Line 1 extension - Emeishanlu – Xingguolu - 42,7 km - 2015-20
Line 4 - Renmin Huitang – Dahedonglu - 30,7 km - 2015-20
Line 6 Phase 1 - Xindunlu – Shengtaiyuan - 30,3 km - 2017-21
Line 7 Phase 1 - Xingguolu – Dongguozhuang - 17,3 km - 2015-20
Line 8 - Jiaozhoubei – Wusi Guangchang - 60,7 km - 2016-21
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Old November 11th, 2016, 09:22 AM   #59
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7th tram unit arrived for testing:
http://news.bandao.cn/news_html/2016..._2680273.shtml

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Old November 19th, 2016, 04:12 PM   #60
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"Qingdao-Rongcheng Intercity Trains: Now Reality from Qingdao"

http://en.trackingchina.com/2016/11/17/20161117-2020/



http://news.xinhuanet.com/photo/2016...19924417_5.htm
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