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Old June 21st, 2012, 06:38 PM   #1
odlum833
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DUBLIN: Carrickmines District Center

Quote:
NAMA firm in €75m retail park deal

Thursday June 21 2012

Financing is in place for a €75m property development in Carrickmines, south Dublin, that could generate 945 building jobs -- and almost as many again once complete, according to the NAMA-linked company behind the plans.

Directors of construction company Tristor say funds are in place to begin construction immediately if Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown Council approves a planning application for the Carrickmines District Centre development on Monday.

It makes Tristor the second developer with loans in NAMA to kick off a Dublin retail project in recent weeks.

In May, NAMA said it would fund a €13m extension of the Charlestown Shopping Centre in north Dublin, which is being developed by the Bailey brothers.

A spokesman for Tristor, which is part of developer Michael Cotter's Park Developments Group, said the company was confident their 25,000sq ft scheme would be approved.

The loans of both Park Developments and Tristor are in NAMA, according to accounts filed for the companies.

Tristor has debts of €52m to the state-controlled bad bank, according to accounts filed with the Companies Office.

The debt fell due in 2009 but has been rolled over, with the permission of the lender, according to the accounts.

Last night, a spokesman for Tristor said funding for the €75m Carrickmines project is in place through a mix of bank debt and equity.

The mixed retail and leisure development has been stuck in the planning stage since 2008.

Permission

The development has already been granted planning permission twice, but construction was controversially blocked by then Environment minister John Gormley in 2010.

The minister wanted to limit the development to a smaller "neighbourhood" retail park.

Tristor sought a "judicial review" of the minister's decision at the High Court, which ruled that the minister overstepped his powers in blocking the scheme.

With the former Green TD no longer in power, Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown Council is now expected to give the okay to the scheme once more.

A spokesman for Tristor said last night that the company was ready to begin construction immediately, if the scheme was approved.

A report commissioned by the developer said the new centre could create 945 jobs during construction, with 900 more once the centre is operational.

It will generate €80m a year for the economy, when it comes into operation, the report said.

http://www.independent.ie/business/i...l-3145617.html







Quote:
Park Village is a 940,000 square foot mixed use development located in Sandyford in South County Dublin. The development consists of;




215,000 square feet of commercial space
100,000 square foot anchor retail unit
400 high specification apartments
1800 car spaces
Civic amenities












http://www.ethoseng.ie/projects/pdf/ParkVillage.pdf

Assuming this gets permission to go ahead next week we should get more imagery available.
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Old June 22nd, 2012, 04:12 PM   #2
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The images you have posted are incorrect as is the breakdown in the second quote, these images and stats relate to the original plan which consisted of 5000sqm of retail space and a number of apartments, a motor showroom and a hotel.The site was rezoned from 'Neighbourhood Centre' to 'District Centre' and the original plan was subsequently binned and started from scratch, the new plan reflects the current market and omits the hotel, motor showroom and apartments. The scheme is also reduced in size from the original height to three storeis over two floors of basement carparking. Images for the current plan can be seen on the application to DLRCC which is under ref: D12A/0163
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Old June 22nd, 2012, 04:44 PM   #3
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OK thanks for that!


http://dms.dlrcoco.ie/Exe/ZyNET.exe/...y=1&SeekPage=f
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Old June 23rd, 2012, 03:24 PM   #4
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Thanks for the info Celtic Cub and thanks for posting the plans Odlum.

Well, looking at the design its probably a more realistic "suburban" single anchor shopping mall. Eminently deliverable, even in the current climate. I presume there may be some degree of future proofing including reinforcing the roof to provide for overhead accommodation in the years to come.

Looking at the site plans, I notice they are leaving the portion of the site previously earmarked for the Hotel vacant. I wonder are they still hopeful it will be built at some future point. The interesting aspect is that they actually got full planning permission for 17 storey (71m) hotel building. This was granted permission very early in the project around the time the first phase of the retail park was built. Given the ammount of money washing around, the boom in hotel building and how hard it is to actually get fpp for a highrise its a wonder that it was never built!

When is this up for a decision Odlum?? I have my doubts that they will give it the go-ahead. This is something of a cause celebre which the Greens tried to make an issue of. Despite protestations to the contrary ABP is very political.....they along with An Taisce inhabit a certain melieu which is why there is very often a convergence of opinion with those organisations. The location also can't be overlooked, Carrickmines has a particularly chequered planning hisrory to put it mildly and ABP may want to send a "message"....as they were doing with the Childrens Hospital! Furthermore, given that this is in DunLaoghaire Rathdown....there are a multitude of projects which ABP refused in this Councils area, giving rise to accusations about their motivations!

C
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Old June 23rd, 2012, 04:38 PM   #5
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It says Monday in the article is when a decision is due.
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Old June 23rd, 2012, 11:03 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebig C
Thanks for the info Celtic Cub and thanks for posting the plans Odlum.

Well, looking at the design its probably a more realistic "suburban" single anchor shopping mall. Eminently deliverable, even in the current climate. I presume there may be some degree of future proofing including reinforcing the roof to provide for overhead accommodation in the years to come.

Looking at the site plans, I notice they are leaving the portion of the site previously earmarked for the Hotel vacant. I wonder are they still hopeful it will be built at some future point. The interesting aspect is that they actually got full planning permission for 17 storey (71m) hotel building. This was granted permission very early in the project around the time the first phase of the retail park was built. Given the ammount of money washing around, the boom in hotel building and how hard it is to actually get fpp for a highrise its a wonder that it was never built!

When is this up for a decision Odlum?? I have my doubts that they will give it the go-ahead. This is something of a cause celebre which the Greens tried to make an issue of. Despite protestations to the contrary ABP is very political.....they along with An Taisce inhabit a certain melieu which is why there is very often a convergence of opinion with those organisations. The location also can't be overlooked, Carrickmines has a particularly chequered planning hisrory to put it mildly and ABP may want to send a "message"....as they were doing with the Childrens Hospital! Furthermore, given that this is in DunLaoghaire Rathdown....there are a multitude of projects which ABP refused in this Councils area, giving rise to accusations about their motivations!

C
BigC it appears from the plans that there will be two anchor units located in the centre of the development - as far as I am aware Tesco are pre-funding a large portion of this development so they will certainly be one anchor while I imagine the other will be Pennys, who are over trading in Dundrum.

I would disagree with you regarding the planning decision - I believe it will be approved based on the fact that the Centre is now incorporated into the retail strategy plan for the area. I think it is more than coincidental that so many media outlets have suddenly taken a interest in the plan a few days given that the recommendation was submitted to the board only earlier in the week. I also believe that the developer will have already meet with the planners on several occasions to essentially design the scheme to their requirements, the scheme itself leaves very little to complain about I believe and it would appear that any objections lodged are from serial objectors and business trying to protect their own interest.
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Old June 24th, 2012, 02:29 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CelticCub View Post
BigC it appears from the plans that there will be two anchor units located in the centre of the development - as far as I am aware Tesco are pre-funding a large portion of this development so they will certainly be one anchor while I imagine the other will be Pennys, who are over trading in Dundrum.

I would disagree with you regarding the planning decision - I believe it will be approved based on the fact that the Centre is now incorporated into the retail strategy plan for the area. I think it is more than coincidental that so many media outlets have suddenly taken a interest in the plan a few days given that the recommendation was submitted to the board only earlier in the week. I also believe that the developer will have already meet with the planners on several occasions to essentially design the scheme to their requirements, the scheme itself leaves very little to complain about I believe and it would appear that any objections lodged are from serial objectors and business trying to protect their own interest.
Hey CelticCub!!

Thanks for that, good insight. I hope you are correct regarding this Development.

It actually makes alot of sense to focus retail space at this location for a number of reasons. Firstly, there is already an aglomeration of varied retail space. Secondly, the nearest zoned "Town Centre" at Cherrywood is years from starting. Lastly, with the new section of Green Luas line is very close improving its public transport access.

Have you heard mutterings that Pennies are to be sub-anchor?? I had assumed that Tesco would be the sole Anchor. Combining Convenience (grocery) and Comparison (Drapery/household) space is frequently done by both Dunnes and Tesco to circumvent the rediculous cap on store sizes. Its easier to do in zoned District/Town Centres as I believe there is some form of derrogation at these locales to discourage Supermarkets from opting for out of town sites.

C
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Old June 25th, 2012, 11:19 AM   #8
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I agree with you regarding this development making sense - the manner in which the site has been discussed previously, in particular by John Gormley, suggests that it is a green field site when the reality is it is already an established retail development trading very well with a very diverse tenant mix (within the boundaries of the pp for the warehouse units). The site where the latest phase would be built was previoulsy used when the other areas were being built and is a mish mash of cabins, builders material etc. Cheerywood is a disaster - it will never be built in my opinion as there will be nobody interested in anchoring the scheme as Dunnes will have Cornelscourt, Tesco will have Carrickmines (pending approval) and the German discounters prefer stand alone units. M&S is not a 'full shop' option and Superquinn seem to favour a smaller format store.

My assesment re Pennys is merley an educated guess. The planning application specifically mentions a number of retailers who are interested in the Centre - my presumption is that some of this would have to be accurate as otherwise the funding would not be in place from Nama (last thing they need is a empty shopping Centre). There is mention of retailers over trading in Dundrum - while DTC is succssful in terms of attracting visitors the spend per head is low and I believe the only tenants over trading (non-franchise) would be Pennys and [email protected]
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Old June 26th, 2012, 11:23 AM   #9
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Looks like you were right BigC...refused permission. The developer must be furious - the reasons given are ridicolous - essentially that they need to include apartments in the development, I think we have enough empty apartments around South Dublin at the moment and that the scheme is too car dependant despite sitting alongside the Luas track.....if thats the case then why designate it as a District Centre - I mean make up your mind! As someone who lives in the vicinity I am bitterly dissapointed - its a badly needed development, DTC is our nearest facility and its a no go due to traffic congestion every weekend.
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Old July 2nd, 2012, 10:53 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CelticCub View Post
Looks like you were right BigC...refused permission. The developer must be furious - the reasons given are ridicolous - essentially that they need to include apartments in the development, I think we have enough empty apartments around South Dublin at the moment and that the scheme is too car dependant despite sitting alongside the Luas track.....if thats the case then why designate it as a District Centre - I mean make up your mind! As someone who lives in the vicinity I am bitterly dissapointed - its a badly needed development, DTC is our nearest facility and its a no go due to traffic congestion every weekend.
Utterly predictable but sad nonetheless! Actually I was praying that you knew more then I did as you seemed confident of an approval.

It would drag the thread off topic but I believe this (and other) decisions have nothing to do with planning. There is a very political battle going on between ABP and the Government steming from Gormleys tenure in the Department.

The decisions itself is verrrry machiavellian, by insisting that they would grant permission if apartments were included ABP are sticking to the letter of policy regarding retailing vis-a-vis residential areas. However, they know full well that in the current cliamate no bank would even loan money for apartments and the inclusion of residential elements would render the entire project uneconomic. Its all the more infuriating when you consider that ABP are more then happy to ditch policy when it comes to deciding on Highrise even if its slap bang on a major public transport node!!

C
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Old July 3rd, 2012, 03:03 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebig C View Post
There is a very political battle going on between ABP and the Government steming from Gormleys tenure in the Department.
Can the goverment not judt get rid of ABP? Thats what I dont get. There has to be someone higher then them and who can get rid of them and get a new group in who are fair and will do the right thing for the city. I will do it if they ask me. I am still waiting for that phone call from Enda Kenny

Quote:
Originally Posted by thebig C View Post
Its all the more infuriating when you consider that ABP are more then happy to ditch policy when it comes to deciding on Highrise even if its slap bang on a major public transport node!!
Even if its a much needed childrens hospital. But hey, what do I know?
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Old July 8th, 2012, 09:59 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebig C

Utterly predictable but sad nonetheless! Actually I was praying that you knew more then I did as you seemed confident of an approval.

It would drag the thread off topic but I believe this (and other) decisions have nothing to do with planning. There is a very political battle going on between ABP and the Government steming from Gormleys tenure in the Department.

The decisions itself is verrrry machiavellian, by insisting that they would grant permission if apartments were included ABP are sticking to the letter of policy regarding retailing vis-a-vis residential areas. However, they know full well that in the current cliamate no bank would even loan money for apartments and the inclusion of residential elements would render the entire project uneconomic. Its all the more infuriating when you consider that ABP are more then happy to ditch policy when it comes to deciding on Highrise even if its slap bang on a major public transport node!!

C
Big C are ABP involved at this point - the decision was made by DLRCC planners...which makes it even more ironic given the Council have approved the zoning. I can see the developer choosing to reapply instead of appeal to ABP and then going to ABP if the scheme is refused on the grounds of the residential element....either that or they include plans for a residential element that they can choose to built in phases ie in 10 years!
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Old July 10th, 2012, 01:46 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CelticCub View Post
Big C are ABP involved at this point - the decision was made by DLRCC planners...which makes it even more ironic given the Council have approved the zoning. I can see the developer choosing to reapply instead of appeal to ABP and then going to ABP if the scheme is refused on the grounds of the residential element....either that or they include plans for a residential element that they can choose to built in phases ie in 10 years!
Sorry, CelticCub....completely misunderstood you!! I guess we can pardon ABP in this case. Although, my "political" point still stands imo.

Wow, the refusal comming from DLRCC is bizarre. Afterall, they zoned this site in the first place against very trenchent opposition! Surely given all the empty units in Sandyford they couldn't want more apartments?!

When they zoned this area originally there were howls of protest regarding its location and the fact that retail should be concentrated in existing zoned town centres. I am surmising that if the shopping centre was built without the apartments, which were partially used to justify it in the first place, it will give ammunition to those who opposed development. Could be a "cover your ass" exercise!

C
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Old July 12th, 2012, 12:29 PM   #14
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Recent addition to the DLRCC planning list...not quite sure what 'Compliance with Conditions' means to be honest but the plan seems to refer to the old/original development from 2008 (which was granted with conditions) as apose to the new, and recently refused, submission.

Can anyone shed any light? Is the developer just keeping this pp alive so they can proceed if they want to as I am guessing the 5 years since the approval means that it will be null and void shortly? Link to application is below

http://bit.ly/Lho2kZ
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Old July 12th, 2012, 04:33 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CelticCub View Post
Recent addition to the DLRCC planning list...not quite sure what 'Compliance with Conditions' means to be honest but the plan seems to refer to the old/original development from 2008 (which was granted with conditions) as apose to the new, and recently refused, submission.

Can anyone shed any light? Is the developer just keeping this pp alive so they can proceed if they want to as I am guessing the 5 years since the approval means that it will be null and void shortly? Link to application is below

http://bit.ly/Lho2kZ
Sorry posted the 2008 instead of the 2012 application, correct one below

http://bit.ly/LbPYlt
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Old July 14th, 2012, 02:00 PM   #16
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Thanks CC. Yes it does appear that the developer is trying to keep the app. alive. Full planning permission used to extend for a period of 10 years however, this was amended to 5 during the mid-2000s.
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Old September 21st, 2012, 08:26 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CelticCub
The images you have posted are incorrect as is the breakdown in the second quote, these images and stats relate to the original plan which consisted of 5000sqm of retail space and a number of apartments, a motor showroom and a hotel.The site was rezoned from 'Neighbourhood Centre' to 'District Centre' and the original plan was subsequently binned and started from scratch, the new plan reflects the current market and omits the hotel, motor showroom and apartments. The scheme is also reduced in size from the original height to three storeis over two floors of basement carparking. Images for the current plan can be seen on the application to DLRCC which is under ref: D12A/0163
I note an appeal has been lodged with ABP....
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Old November 9th, 2012, 12:08 PM   #18
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I note APB have overturned DLRCC's decision to refuse permission for two drive thrus...good to see aa ABP planner using a bit of common sense

http://www.pleanala.ie/casenum/240090.htm
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Old November 9th, 2012, 05:07 PM   #19
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Is that decision just for the Drive thrus?

C
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Old November 9th, 2012, 11:07 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebig C
Is that decision just for the Drive thrus?

C
Yes just for the two drive thru's - decision re Shopping Centre development is up towards the end of this month but I wouldn't be surprised if they delay the decision.
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