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Old July 1st, 2012, 09:27 PM   #21
erbse
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So now there's one question gradually raising for me:

Here in Germany, a single mayor doesn't even have the powers to "cancel" projects of a city, if the city council gives it a go and the authorities (such as preservation offices) don't have any serious objection. Especially not when it comes to private projects.

So how is it possible the Seoul major can feature any power to stall/cancel even private projects (alone)? Or is the whole council/city hall/municipal parliament following his decisions?
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Old July 1st, 2012, 11:07 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erbse View Post
So now there's one question gradually raising for me:

Here in Germany, a single mayor doesn't even have the powers to "cancel" projects of a city, if the city council gives it a go and the authorities (such as preservation offices) don't have any serious objection. Especially not when it comes to private projects.

So how is it possible the Seoul major can feature any power to stall/cancel even private projects (alone)? Or is the whole council/city hall/municipal parliament following his decisions?

In my oppinions Two point is answer to the questions.

1. As far as i know Korea's political system is "presidential system" which is different from "parliamentary cabinet system" of Germany.
I'm affraid If i'm wrong.....but i thinks "parliamentary cabinet system" is much more democratic system than "presidential system".
"Municipal parliament" of seoul resemble with national "presidential system". Threrefore Mayor more important than council.

2. Unfortunately the seoul city council and seoul mayor are same party.
Actually Seoul have the council but majority of them are same party(opposition party) with Seoul mayor(Only minority congressman are government party)
Therefore council's role dose not work at all. Seoul mayor have to approved concern "administraion" from seoul council. But both are same party which sharing same political agenda and idea especially with "Anti development".
Therefore no brake in mayor's acting.
Seoul mayor to stall/cancel even private projects (alone).
I don't know why they choosed "Anti development idea" as own politacal pledge. But it is ....

In short
the Seoul major can feature any power to stall/cancel even private projects (alone)? => Right. He have a power to even private. Not alone but with council.

Or is the whole council/city hall/municipal parliament following his decisions? => Exactly correct. At the moment the whole seoul municipal parliament following mayor's decisions.(except only a few who minority congressmen)
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Old July 2nd, 2012, 12:53 AM   #23
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Thanks for your explanation efforts here! Quite a pity really. I'm much in favour of a more pluralistic approach to democracy, even though if that can lead to longer processes in taking decisions and making things happen.

But well, a lot of power can lead to both, as observable here: Fast progress and also fast slow-down of progress.
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Old July 2nd, 2012, 01:04 AM   #24
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Moscow Department of Construction and Mayor can also cancel projects (they restrict maximal height and total area limit for each plot in Moscow and it can be changed). Usually, the project is cancelled when it reach its given deadline and there's no construction works. They also can change height limit even during construction of the building. That came out with a scandal in 2010, when Department of Construction urged Don-Stroy to demolish 5 upper floors of almost finished Mosfilm tower (there was even a petition from CTBUH to Moscow Mayor). But later that scandal turned into nothing and Mosfilm tower was with completed with full height. So, Seoul problems are not so hard as you can think.

But, the Mayor (and any other regional governor) can be dismissed by the President "for the loss of trust" if the President dislikes the Mayor's work as it happened in 2010 with Yury Luzhkov.
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Old July 2nd, 2012, 01:52 AM   #25
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Very odd to see an anti-development mayor in one of the fastest growing cities of the last few decades. What are the mayor's stated reasons for being anti-development? It's not even like Seoul has a lot of beautiful old districts, it's 90% ugly commieblocks that are ripe for redevelopment!
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Old July 2nd, 2012, 01:57 AM   #26
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Absolutely. I really don't get what's all the fuss about there. Or why the citizens of Seoul would elect someone like that in the first place.
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Old July 2nd, 2012, 02:48 AM   #27
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The reason for his election (in relation to these projects) is the fact that many of the major developments proposed for Seoul were led by the chaebol, the big conglomerates South Korea is known for, e.g., Hyundai, Samsung, Lotte, etc. However, there is a general consensus among the population, one which I think is correct, that the chaebol receive lots of political perks because of the way the country developed--with those companies leading the way via easy credit from the gov't. Therefore, these large developments are seen as further prizes for the chaebol, most of which are awarded by the government. As a consequence, and because compensation is often not adequate, many Seoulites would prefer not to have these developments at all, regardless of their individual merit, because of the massive way in which a handful of companies dominate the economy.

I have to say my experience aligns with this sentiment; when I travelled to Seoul, I took a Hyundai escaltor down from the departure area of Incheon airport, got into a Hyundai Rotem train to go from Incheon to Seoul, and stayed in a Hyundai Construction apt. hostel before I took a Hyundai taxi to Yonsei for a study abroad last summer. It was sort of a surreal experience.
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Old July 2nd, 2012, 05:59 PM   #28
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First of all, Inno4321 is labelling Seoul mayor as a kind of dictator of anti-development.
Actually, it is NOT TRUE.

Let me ask you one thing.
What is the development? Building many new things for the beautiful skyline to compete Hong kong or Singapore?
If many citizens have no benefit from the development, who is this development for?

Park, won-soon, the current Seoul mayor, was a famous civit activist and human rights lawyer in Korea.
He was elected by Seoul' citizens with 75 percent percent of the votes counted, Park was leading with 53.3 percent in by-election.
Park especially enjoyed support from voters in their 20s and 30s.

This is Seoul citizen's choice.

Also, Park is only to remain in office until February 2014, not that long time.
Don't exaggerate Seoul mayor's power.
A mayor doesn't have that power, who is elected by people.

These are the articles about new Seoul mayor, a temporary mayor.
http://view.koreaherald.com/kh/view....26001078&cpv=0

http://view.koreaherald.com/kh/view....04000960&cpv=0

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Old July 2nd, 2012, 06:13 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inno4321 View Post


http://news.mk.co.kr/newsRead.php?year=2012&no=117092

Saewun Green Avenue Stopped by Seoul mayor
This article says the project is reviewed, in the re-examining process (재검토 in Korean)
But he translated this as "stopped by Seoul mayor" already.

Re-examining the project is a process of reconsidering it because it has many problems, not stop the project yet. It 's quite different.

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Old July 3rd, 2012, 12:05 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erbse View Post
Thanks for your explanation efforts here! Quite a pity really. I'm much in favour of a more pluralistic approach to democracy, even though if that can lead to longer processes in taking decisions and making things happen.

But well, a lot of power can lead to both, as observable here: Fast progress and also fast slow-down of progress.
Thanks, I also agree with pluralistic approach. pluralistic approach is democratic political method. Saddly at the moment seoul become mono......

Quote:
Originally Posted by dars-dm View Post
Moscow Department of Construction and Mayor can also cancel projects (they restrict maximal height and total area limit for each plot in Moscow and it can be changed). Usually, the project is cancelled when it reach its given deadline and there's no construction works. They also can change height limit even during construction of the building. That came out with a scandal in 2010, when Department of Construction urged Don-Stroy to demolish 5 upper floors of almost finished Mosfilm tower (there was even a petition from CTBUH to Moscow Mayor). But later that scandal turned into nothing and Mosfilm tower was with completed with full height. So, Seoul problems are not so hard as you can think.

But, the Mayor (and any other regional governor) can be dismissed by the President "for the loss of trust" if the President dislikes the Mayor's work as it happened in 2010 with Yury Luzhkov.
It is very weird that Moscow have same problem with seoul. I'm little bit shock that demolish 5 upper floors of almost finished.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BarbaricManchurian View Post
Very odd to see an anti-development mayor in one of the fastest growing cities of the last few decades. What are the mayor's stated reasons for being anti-development? It's not even like Seoul has a lot of beautiful old districts, it's 90% ugly commieblocks that are ripe for redevelopment!
I'm 100$ agree with you "it's 90% ugly commieblocks that are ripe for redevelopment!" I don;t want to agree but that is true for seoul city..

Quote:
Originally Posted by erbse View Post
Absolutely. I really don't get what's all the fuss about there. Or why the citizens of Seoul would elect someone like that in the first place.
First my fault Because i'm also seoul citizens who selected mayor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aquaticko View Post
The reason for his election (in relation to these projects) is the fact that many of the major developments proposed for Seoul were led by the chaebol, the big conglomerates South Korea is known for, e.g., Hyundai, Samsung, Lotte, etc. However, there is a general consensus among the population, one which I think is correct, that the chaebol receive lots of political perks because of the way the country developed--with those companies leading the way via easy credit from the gov't. Therefore, these large developments are seen as further prizes for the chaebol, most of which are awarded by the government. As a consequence, and because compensation is often not adequate, many Seoulites would prefer not to have these developments at all, regardless of their individual merit, because of the massive way in which a handful of companies dominate the economy.

I have to say my experience aligns with this sentiment; when I travelled to Seoul, I took a Hyundai escaltor down from the departure area of Incheon airport, got into a Hyundai Rotem train to go from Incheon to Seoul, and stayed in a Hyundai Construction apt. hostel before I took a Hyundai taxi to Yonsei for a study abroad last summer. It was sort of a surreal experience.
Yeap. agree with you Korea's chaebal too powerful and monopoly. But (no offense) Without chaebale Korea can not push up economy rise up.
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Old July 3rd, 2012, 12:13 AM   #31
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http://news.kbs.co.kr/society/2012/06/29/2495240.html

Official declared of cancelling all "Han river project" by seoul mayor at 29.June.

Accordding to the report(KBS NEWS)

-Seoul city declared all "Han river project" is cancelled.(from the time 29.June.2012)

-For this declared make detailed plans for "CANCEL" like belows.

-First, Kyongin Ara canal cancelled : Any ship can not enter to the "Han river of Seoul". So if china tourist travel to seoul they have to get off from a cruiseship before Han river of Seoul and then ride bus go to seoul. Kyongin Ara canal becomes "half seaway". Therefore Critical damaged to "National Canal project"

-Second, Yeuido Harbor cancelled /Yongsan IBD Harbor cancelled. Tourist can not enter to the seoul by cruiseship.

-Thirds, Nodul Opera House project cancelled : Nodul Island already paid USD $ "34,995,625" for opera house's detail map out but cancelled.
Instead planted "rice".

-Last, Beside Han river's apartment building height restriction guide line as below 35 floors when redevelopment.

"Yongsan IBD Harbor cancelled"=> Yongsan IBD's future ?


Nodul Opera House

Descriptioan Han river project.
http://blog.naver.com/kkj741029?Redi...o=140107071725
http://blog.naver.com/piyrw123123?Re...o=120161670965
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Old July 13th, 2012, 11:31 AM   #32
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http://media.daum.net/economic/estat...20713105643474


Seoul mayor make a "닭장아파트(chicken coop apartment)" in banpo of seoul.

-Accordding to the report, Banpo of seoul is going to chicken coop apartment

-Because Beside han river can not redevelopment above 35 floors.

-Seoul mayor anti skyscraper

-For example sin ban po 1cha redevelopemnt's plan floor area ratio 300% but strictly height limited by below 35floors.

-At the moment So many city construction engineers and citizen complain about Seoul mayor's illational policy.

-Engineers suggested construction skyscpaer apartment and make open space to public park instead of below 35foors.
But seoul mayor rejected

Almost apartment will be more density than this one(banpo zie aparment) ==> http://blog.naver.com/luxurynhouse?R...No=80135271004
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Old July 13th, 2012, 10:01 PM   #33
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The problem here is, Inno4321 doesn't accept any opinions that oppose his view of the situation. You only reply to the folks that (partially) agree with you and you skip those comments that have a totally different verdict. You just want to keep it a one handed power, which is not healthy nor acceptable.

I still think that there is no need for such threads here. What is the point exactly? The whole talk is about bashing the mayor in a way or another. I hope they will cancel more projects and focus on the essencial issue which the quality of life. An average Korean can't purchase a shit with his won in Japan.. (For exp).
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Old July 15th, 2012, 05:28 PM   #34
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^Yes, and I think that the mayor is doing actually a quite good job there.

Besides most of the projects is a low quality planning and an average architecture as well.
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Old July 18th, 2012, 03:28 AM   #35
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This is the dumbest thread in SSC history. When I was in Seoul last month tons of high rise construction everywhere.
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Old July 18th, 2012, 05:36 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inno4321 View Post
Yeap. agree with you Korea's chaebal too powerful and monopoly. But (no offense) Without chaebale Korea can not push up economy rise up.
This isn't true. The chaebol are too conservative and want to simply continue on as they have, because they've become very wealthy and powerful due to the way the economy is set up. But you can't put the fortunes of a country on the shoulders of 50 or so companies; it's way too dangerous, economically speaking. Korea's GDP per capita is already about the same as Japan. The country should focus now on social development. In this way, I think Park Won-Soon was the correct choice for the mayor of Seoul.
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Old July 18th, 2012, 04:04 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aquaticko View Post
This isn't true. The chaebol are too conservative and want to simply continue on as they have, because they've become very wealthy and powerful due to the way the economy is set up. But you can't put the fortunes of a country on the shoulders of 50 or so companies; it's way too dangerous, economically speaking. Korea's GDP per capita is already about the same as Japan. The country should focus now on social development. In this way, I think Park Won-Soon was the correct choice for the mayor of Seoul.
I know you dear aquaticko very proffensional knowledge about korea. But you miss one point.
Without chaebol Korea can not existed such like "at the moment economy advanced"

Korea have no resource at all(oil,coal)
korea was colonized by the Japan almost 50years.
Furthermore korea was civil war at 1950.
About 25 years ago korea very poor than phillippine.

Small land, Less population, have no resource, How can korea become advanced country?
There is no choice for economy growth.
Choosed one national industry such like a Car,semiconductor,ship and then push up those company with goverment support.

This is result korea chaebol. Did you know china follow korea's chaebol model? Chaebol is not best model for advanced but it can be proper model for Third world country.

Europe had been conquered the whole world
USA had a huge population,land, resource.
Even Thailand had a fascinated tourist hot spot.
But korea had nothing....No choice.

Also park won sun is very supporter of saejong city. Did you know what is sajong city?
Even Germany Gerhard Schroder pursued "don't make saejong city don't split seoul"!
Bon and berlin seperated! Is it suceesful? I dont think so.

Korea have to respect Germany's experience. But we didn't. I'm sure that Park's policy is slumism seoul. Because he is supporter of seajong city.
Thanks.
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Old July 18th, 2012, 08:32 PM   #38
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http://news.mk.co.kr/newsRead.php?year=2012&no=96092

Seoul mayor announce reconsideration project of Yongsan International business district.

Below is my report translation.
-By park won sun's reconsideration announce have tremendous repercussions on yongsan IBD project. (박원순 서울시장이 용산 개발계획 수정을 검토하면서 파장이 커지고 있다.)

DreamHub INC very embarrassed by mayor provoke a quarrel especially in the middle of the almost project is completed (이미 상당 부분 개발계획이 진행된 사업에 딴죽을 걸면서 출자사들은 당혹스럽다는 입장이다.)

Also very worry about "Lawsuit rally" between land owner korail/Invest company dreamhub PFV/Seoul goverment/Sebu ichon apartment citizens.(땅 주인인 코레일, 사업시행자인 드림허브PFV와 서울시, 서부이촌동 주민 간 소송전이 우려된다.)

Seoul goverment already cancelled another projects. Furthermore Yongsan stalled. It is only damage to civil real estate business.(서울시가 뉴타운 출구전략을 내놓은 데 이어 용산 개발계획까지 수정하면 자칫 매몰비용만 급증할 전망이다.)

Professor Mr. yan jaemo of hanyang college said "It is very irrational decision which is stalled by only a few citizens's anti opinions."(양재모 한양사이버대 부동산학과 교수는 “주민들 의견도 중요하지만 사업주체와 이해관계자들 의견도 함께 수렴해 정책을 결정해야 할 때”라고 지적했다.)

Anonymous construction expert said "What is meaning of development? I want to mayor suggested vision and dream for seoul city (insteady of reconsideration or stalled). (업계 관계자는 “일부 주민들이 반대한다고 해서 사업계획을 뒤늦게 수정하면 개발사업의 의미가 사라진다. 시장으로서 서울시의 비전, 방향성부터 제시해야 할 것”이라고 지적했다.)

Descriptioan Yongsan IBD project. http://www.dreamhub21.com/
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Old July 20th, 2012, 06:32 PM   #39
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Hey, inno4321, why do you post old article all of sudden?( Febuary, 13th, 2012 ).
That news article is five months out of date.


The real truth of the matter is that the biggest obstacle is the internal conflict of KORAIL, not Seoul mayor.

Importantly, don't put too much confidence in what the newspaper says.
We should not swallow everything the papers say uncritically without question
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Old July 22nd, 2012, 06:21 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aquaticko View Post
I think Park Won-Soon was the correct choice for the mayor of Seoul.
To be honest, I find the man (Mayor Park,) pretty annoying also.

What really irks me is his recent legislation requiring large supermarkets (E Mart, Homeplus etc. ) to close for, I believe, 2 days per month. Ostensibly this was to allow "Mom & Pop" stores to compete. The trouble is if you are shopping for anything more esoteric than instant noodles you're out of luck as Mom & Pop only stock the most rudimentary items.

He is not helping the citizens of Seoul at all, IMO.
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