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When will Tampa get it's next 400+ footer?

14K views 61 replies 15 participants last post by  I-275westcoastfl 
#1 ·
"The Venu' looked promising.
Personally I'm glad the Trump Tower was never built, the design was not very good IMO. (Will it ever get built BTW?) Most of the skyscrapers in DT Tampa have that sleek glassy look and I think they are better off keeping it that way.

Will we see ANYTHING by say... 2015...2020?
 
#3 ·
I have doubts. usually you hear about 20% of the office space downtown is open (give or take a few percentage points) at any given time... That kills the need for major new space. Then there's the competing West Shore business district which is a popular location. There is also the habit of local companies wanting their own, private buildings with sprawling campuses out in the suburbs.

And that's commercial... The two projects you cited were residential. And the residential market is... Well, it's odd. Residential real estate is in the gutter through most of the US, but there is a trend of residents moving into cities instead of suburbs. Tampa has already seen grand increases in residents downtown due to the residential building boom of the 00's... But some were set to fail from the beginning because developers were expecting the real estate bubble to last and everyone wealthy snatch up their prime-location condos.

A 400 foot tower downtown? I don't expect it. A lot of things would have to change in short time.
 
#4 ·
You hear stories of companies that go DT but they only need a few floors. It would take a major company that originates here or one that relocates here that needs half a million square feet and wants to have most of it's departments all in one tower. I think those days are over so it would be a miracle to get a new one that big. We will probably get a new hotel but nowhere near 400ft. Condos? No idea.
 
#5 ·
I don't necessarily think "those days are over" as-so-much Tampa - and larger Tampa Bay - is not renown for embracing stuff like that in city centers but, instead, sprawling campuses.

Look at Raymond James. Look at Nielsen Media Research. Look at Baycare and HSN: Huge local employers who have sprawling campuses in suburban locations (Baycare is building a new building in Clearwater, between US 19 and McMullen Booth). They don't think of location and presence as-so-much something of their own. Nothing distinctive - just funcitonal.

Maybe you're right? A company wanting to imprss the public with their own identifiable location in a high profile area with a distinct building... But, I think that's just TB -- we invite sprawl and parking lots before we invite vertical corporate edifices.
 
#13 ·
John pretty much nailed it. DT will not get another 400 ft office tower because of Westshore and suburban office complexes with huge parking lots. RJ is a good example. When they needed more office space, they just added on "attached" another mid-rise. If another 400+ tower of any kind is proposed there is also a couple other things to consider. The FAA may not want 400 feet unless it's on a specific block, which is kind of ridiculous when we already have buildings over 500. Plus you may have some council members that have a problem with height. That's happened before.
 
#7 ·
Especially with the city eager to give approval to literally any structure proposed downtown. After CAMLS, the PA garage, a used car lot and the Related apts all sailed through rezoning while the city's leadership high fived themselves, it's clear that anything goes, all future consequences be damned.

I'm still shocked that the old TTT site wasn't approved to be converted into a surface lot. The new landowner must have forgotten to pay his dues... oops, I mean make a ''campaign contribution''.
 
#8 ·
You're shocked about TTT? The you clearly don't pay attention. A) I told you it wasn't going to go anywhere -- so did Mike and a half a dozen other people B) If you know as much about Tampa as you do, then you would have known that. C) Instead of assuming the politicians are stupid for the reason you think -- try finding out why they actually make stupid decisions.

CAMLS and PA Garage were years ago. Only one -- yes, one -- of the people on the city council were voting then + a different mayor.

Related was the first building asking for a permit in 3 years that wasn't a parking lot. Sadly in this economy -- no way they are going to win that fight. Just like it'll be hard to make the fight political if there are things wrong with vinik's plans --- that will have to be waged in the press.
 
#10 ·
CAMLS and PA Garage were years ago. Only one -- yes, one -- of the people on the city council were voting then + a different mayor.
Mayor was around for a lot of really bad decisions. Maybe he learned or maybe he didn't. And at least Mulhern and Miranda . . .

I know you are a political consultant for democrats - which means your business in Tampa is with the city govt or its progeny, but you need to relax
 
#11 ·
Nope. Do no work for people in Tampa and never have. Democrats don't have the stuff together in the bay area. I am sorry if I take out my frustration on the "Tampa sucks and always will" crowd on here. It's an annoying and typical attitude from people who should know better.

I agree -- the jury is out on whether he's learned or if the majority of council know better. But if they feel like the people who want better are always their enemy and the people who don't are always their friend. They are only hearing one side of the argument. That is when stuff does actually break down.

But this i know -- if 400ft+ tower comes up for approval -- it'll get approved this day and age. But i'll relax if people stop being card carrying members of the Tampa sucks and always will crowd. If people want to say that I will argue different. If people say Tampa sucks and can get better, or it kinds sucks or whatever, fine. But I have lived a lot of places and there is a lot to like about this city.
 
#12 ·
Tampa sucks and can get better
This has always been my position, but to get better it needs a lot of change - especially in the political class. And if you ask the poltical class, you will find many of them are in the Tampa cannot get better group - they are always telling you why it cannot be done, even if everyone else does it.
 
#14 ·
A multi-use could also do it. Imagine if instead of the Southgate project being 2 towers, it was offices on the first half and the hotel on the second half of one tower. Include having retail and the parking taking up Floor 1 to Floor 7 and you definitely would have a 400+ ft tower for Tampa.

Just imagine if the CAMLS project and Southgate was just one large tower. :cheers:
 
#15 ·
Perhaps you guys can explain something to me...
Why is it that whenever a decent project gets proposed in Tampa it gets shot down almost instantly, as where in Miami nobody cares?
For a metro area as populated as Tampa you would think the skyline would be at least 1/2 or 2/3rds the size of the Miami skyline by now. I realize though that the Tampa area is more sprawled/spread out ect..

Will Tampa ever see a decent construction boom downtown anytime in the not too far future? What would it take to cause it?
 
#16 ·
^^
Because many of the people that have power and influence (and buy condos) in Miami do not actually live in Miami. And the people that do live in the city, judging by the condition of it, are not the vanguard of urbanism and aesthetics.

That said, we should not be worried about the size of our skyline or the height of our towers. We should be concerned with creating a good urban environment. I want people to enjoy walking, eating, sleeping, and working in our downtown - not taking photos of it from afar.
 
#19 ·
I agree to an extent. I would much rather see ten 100ft buildings than one 1000ft building. A skyline means nothing unless you have actually activity in the streets.
However, this does not mean I would be against Tampa having a supertall.
...Hey, I like skylines...can you blame me? :)
 
#17 ·
Miami is a more popular city (globally) & it has a better waterfront than Tampa. The demand for high rise living there is way beyond Tampa's. Plus Miami and the whole S. FL coast gets a lot of the wealthy people from the NE that move there or just have a condo for the winter. People in Tampa/St. Pete can't think outside of the suburban box. Too many people here with kids that have to be in the burbs with a typical home with garage and yard. A lot of people on here are are so gung ho about high rises to be built in Tampa but they would never live in one.
 
#20 ·
Miami is a more popular city (globally) & it has a better waterfront than Tampa. The demand for high rise living there is way beyond Tampa's. Plus Miami and the whole S. FL coast gets a lot of the wealthy people from the NE that move there or just have a condo for the winter. People in Tampa/St. Pete can't think outside of the suburban box. Too many people here with kids that have to be in the burbs with a typical home with garage and yard. A lot of people on here are are so gung ho about high rises to be built in Tampa but they would never live in one.
Tampa has made a conscious decision to stagnate development of Bayshore - Miami made the opposite decision in the Brickell area. Tampa had/has a chance to develop that area better.
 
#21 ·
I agree. Bayshore boulevard is such a beautiful setting. It would be great if the people living there would allow it to have some culture.

Why do they always cancel the hi-rise proposals along bayshore? Does it block their view or something?
 
#22 ·
And just to be clear, Miami has made a number of decisions over the years that made it an international city and Tampa has made decisions that didn't. This is over about a century. I don't think Bayshore would be (or should be) Brickell, but the whole area could have been developed completely differently, but for the conscious decisions of the city and the south Tampa powers
 
#32 ·
One thing Miami did was approve a lot of high-rise projects before they went to construction and topped out, so by the time these projects made it to construction, the NIMBY'S had nothing say in the matter.

I wish Miami Beach had done the same thing in the 90s. When the Blue and Green Diamonds topped out at 559 feet, there was such a public outcry that nothing else got approved that was over 500 feet tall, but if all of Miami Beach's very tall projects had gotten approved, Miami probably wouldn't have the skyline it has today and Miami Beach would probably have looked like Australia's Gold Coast.

Sunny Isles Beach got smart and didn't let the public in on what they were doing until a whole slew of projects got approved before the public could protest. As a result, Sunny Isles Beach probably has the second largest skyline in Florida after Miami, and both skylines are still growing. People don't seem to understand that high-rises generate a lot of revenue for a city.
 
#23 ·
Hi-rise proposals always get criticism from some part of Bayshore about the height. Most complain about the shade, others say that they won't be able to grow a small garden. Tampa really needs to set out a vision and plan for all of Tampa, AND STICK TO IT!!!! Because once you start giving a "Let you pass with this one" pass to one developer, then all will want that pass. Decide what is best for the future of Bayshore and not just it's current residents. Sooner than later, they'll be gone and a new tenant will be looked for. And someone will come along and like that the house is shaded almost day long. People have different likes than others.
 
#26 ·
This needs to happen -- it is the big question. Will city council get a backbone? Will staff change their expectation? Will the other local leaders join in?

Only way that is all yes is if public pressure is applied. Period. They will listen to organized citizens. More scared of them then campaign donors.
 
#25 ·
Totally agree the leadership loves to parrot that line -- because it's the chamber's favorite excuse for their failures. But I have noticed more people aren't talking that way anymore (and yes I have paid attention to it for a long time and know the history well). Just look at Sharpe, Suarez, Buckhorn, Lapano, Kelly Miller are just some examples and you find that people like Murman and others are willing to follow that.

Yeah they may be ten years behind, but we have more people who aren't in that camp in leadership than ever before. But it's not Norman, Storms, Greco.

And on topic: while I don't expect any 400ft+ buildings in the area -- I do expect we'll see a couple of 250ft+ buildings in the next couple years. The pent up demand for rental in downtown is going to bring in a couple developers and get a couple existing one to move on projects.

Mercury has sold nearly 100 united in 6 months at Grand Central for example to Martin might come soon (They are saying Publix would prefer to move into that building to people). The city is getting aggressive about courting new people as well.
 
#27 ·
One of the biggest problems that still exist with Tampa (see Ray's stadium discussion) is the two city syndrome. St Pete and Tampa, and Hills/Pin counties, always seem to be competing with each other, and the entire Bay Area suffers as a result. Even Orlando is kicking our butt in economic development at this point because one city center creates a much more unified vision and cooperation for the entire metro area.
 
#29 ·
The Hatsfield / McCoys syndrome of Tampa/St. Pete has been around for a VERY long time, and the baseball thing is part of it (Tampa/St. Pete were at war over MLB bids 20+ years ago). The Times does have an agenda in it's narratives in who it quotes, how it presents a quote and what conclusions get told to the public. They're also the only major newspaper in the area with the Tampa Tribune basically contracting in on itself over the past 15 years.

The Times is supposed to be in favor of regionalism (sus their name change), and they've done nothing but promote rail initiatives nad mass transit alternatives when they come up for discussion... But they promote the hatsfield/mccoys thing by presenting the infighting as a serious position in discussing something political int eh region. They present insecurity of the region as vital to a story/issue (see the RNC and the after-convention stories about how the area did in the eyes of the convention goers).
 
#35 ·
In terms of a 400-footer, I agree that it's going to be residential. The continued development and construction of Westshore nearly assures that for the next 5-10 years, I would guess. People often overlook Westshore as one of the greatest hinderances to the development of down town. I know the hope is that one day the two areas will grow together along the I-275 corridor but that's many decades away if then. The volume of commercial square-footage available in Westshore is mind boggling.

The solution seems clear to me, get GLR up and running between TIA-Westshore-Downtown, supplemented by trolley routes connecting the Heights, Hydepark, Ybor, etc... Make it feasible to work in Westshore and live downtown and you will grow some monsters downtown, first in residential and then later in new commercial towers.
 
#36 ·
I believe they should redesign Venu into a hotel instead. This would help it move to construction quicker as the property would be in a perfect area on the riverwalk and would add some regular tourist traffic which in turn would help the nearby museums and possible restaurants coming to the riverwalk.
 
#39 ·
That is exactly it Jason. The old Woolworth's is practically begging to be developed into a grocery store, I can easily imagine a Publix concept in there that worked more like an Aldi in terms of size and operations. Put a Publix in there with a small deli, meat market etc... and you would instantly make living downtown much more enjoyable. I would also go so far as to think a department store anchor like Target could go a long way, offering both retail and grocery. Then as you mentioned, close the Trolley's loop and make that network flow all the better for interconnecting the 3 downtown neighborhoods. Give it that, and DT has a real edge on Westshore, connect DT to Westshore and the airport and you've hit pay dirt.
 
#41 ·
Lets hope that with the streetcar potentially going free to increase ridership and furthermore allow federal grants to roll in again, the city will extend the streetcar.

Honestly feel like the city would focus more on the streetcar than the Riverwalk. Riverwalk is great and would be great for Tampa, but streetcar should have priority over Riverwalk any day.
 
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