Better Place starts selling electric cars

yerushalmi · July 15th, 2012, 05:12 PM

Better Place announced it started selling its Renault Fluence ZE to the public, so far 260 cars are on the road, another 1,550 ordered by company fleets and 330 by the public. The priceis 121k and BPL now also offers the electric car without its charging system, for an extra 77k.

לאחר לא מעט הצהרות קודמות הכריזה הבוקר (א') חברת בטר פלייס על תחילת המכירה של מכוניות חשמליות. עד עתה העלתה בטר פלייס על כבישי ישראל כ-260 מכוניות חשמליות מסוג רנו פלואנס ZE.
כמחציתן נמסרו לעובדי החברה וכ-40 מהן לציי רכב לצורך "השקה רכה" שבה נבחנו המכוניות, רשת הטעינה ועשר תחנות ההחלפה שכבר הוקמו. זאת לעומת הבטחות קודמות למסירת אלפים רבים של מכוניות והשלמת רשת הטעינה הארצית עוד לקראת סוף השנה שעברה. הבשורה החשובה יותר שבטר פלייס מביאה הבוקר היא שינוי מוחלט של שיטת התמחור, בעקבות ביקורת רבה שהושמעה לגבי שיטת התמחור הקודמת של החברה.
מחיר המכונית עצמה, ללקוחות פרטיים, מתחיל ב-121,200 שקל לדגם הבסיסי שכולל גם מערכת ניווט ותקשורת עם מרכז השליטה של החברה. לקוח שירצה לרכוש גם את הסוללה החשמלית, וכך לא להיות תלוי בשירותי הטעינה של החברה, יידרש להוסיף עוד 77 אלף שקל.

link

matrix2020 · July 15th, 2012, 07:01 PM

So far I am not impressed with the initiative.
It has been mostly publicity and lots of bold statements.
I dont think Electric cars are a viable solution using current technology.
I would think it will be mostly used in Tel Aviv since such cars can be practical mostly for short distance rides.
For now hybrid cars make much more sense and it is too bad the Government is not doing enough to encourage their use (lower taxes on hybrid models).

Hadera · July 17th, 2012, 06:50 AM

The problem is is that nobody will by them. People will have to re-learn the way they drive and refuel their car.

elab · July 17th, 2012, 09:10 AM

They should fill leasing-market with electric cars first. Also useful to add e-powered vehicles for rent. People have to see and to learn them more.
Bring more models: available and "sexy".
Push them to businesses for affordable price and develop second-hand market...
Long-term investment is a key here.
And it begins to work in more and more places.

Example.
One of the hotels in Helsinki uses e-powered car for its everyday needs:

Street power point:

matrix2020 · July 18th, 2012, 12:25 PM

elab, how exactly a business can push those cars at affordable prices?
These cars are more expensive to produce, do you expect a business to sell these cars and lose money in the process?
Or do you propose the Government intervention and subsidizing that?
How is the car that can only go for 150km on a charge practical in any conditions besides short rides to work and home in a city?
I am actually surprised that the cars are "only" 121k, I would expect them to be even more expensive.
Also, how do you plan to deal with used batteries that require lots of effort to recycle?
I won't even mention how bad for the environment is production of these cars.
There was an article (I think it was Wired) that showed how the land looks like around the factories in China producing batteries for these cars.
Trust me its not pretty.
Why not have a little patience and develop something that actually works before selling junk to people?

elab · July 18th, 2012, 09:16 PM

I don't know how bad look factory surroundings in China, but surroundings of SilverPick (Nevada, US) look quite clean - K2 Corp. (one of the leading Litium Fosfate & Polymer batteries producer), as well as factories in California, Massachusetts, Germany, France and even Russia. Don't buy oil-monsters propaganda against new technology!

They are so clean with all their refinery plants and oil platforms (in Mexican gulf).......
Better Place have lost the battle with conventional/hybride cars importers lobby in Israel. Government wants taxes today much more then 4 years ago. 60% import tax only for batteries! I "eat" it with my efforts to enter LiFoPO4 20A batteries for electric scooters... BTW, 10 of them is one unit for Renault Fluence... same technology.
And Better Place made a mistake choosing family-class middlesize sedan. They had to begin with something smaller, Ride-In-City like Peugeot Ion or smth. like this. Today you can rent such electric mini for 500 euro a month (in France, for example) with low maintenance and 120 km range in city traffic.

matrix2020 · July 18th, 2012, 10:15 PM

Small cars do make some sense.
Large cars with current rechargeable batteries technology are simply not viable.
And even small cars are only good for driving inside the city.
And elab, I was in China myself and its not pretty (in Shanghai which is one of the cleanest cities there).
Bejing was awful (I couldn't breathe there).
I actually support hybrid technology.
It makes alot of sense at this moment.
As for Israel, I think the best option now is to move cars to natural gas.
We have enough to supply us for the next 20-30 years.

elab · July 19th, 2012, 09:28 AM

Just to clarify, today e-power technology made significant progress: LiFePO4 type batteries allow more then 1600 full charge cycles! Even if you charge your vehicle every day these battery will serve you 5 years!
BUT: today in Israel 20A/48V battery cluster alone costs about 3.5-4K NIS. Electric car needs the set of 10-20 of them (depends on vehicle size & weight).
It is up to government and its will to cancel or at least to reduce import taxes on electric power supply units giving a push to "green" industry in Israel.
And "we" work on it. Wait for this October.......

Wrong decision:

Right decision:

matrix2020 · July 19th, 2012, 09:41 AM

My main issue is not number of recharge cycles (though this is just as important) but the capacity.
I want to see a serially produced car that can go for 300 kilometers.
How far are we from that?
Good luck to you, but don't expect me lining up and spending a few tens of thousands of shekels for the environment

I will be prepared to buy such a car only if it is actually cheaper then gasoline powered car and also performs better.
Just to clarify, I don't have a car and prefer using cabs

Hope you find enough people who care.
Oh and don't expect the Government to lower taxes anytime soon.
Consider the influence and lobbying power of major car importers and I think it is will become clear that this is not something that can happen in the next 50 years or so.
Unless of course everyone in Israel starts to care more about the environment then they do about their wallet.

elab · July 19th, 2012, 10:13 AM

Thanks for good wishes!

Well, range is a matter of time (hopefully soon).
The "Big Jump" is expected because there is the huge progress in BIM (Brushless Integrated Motor) technology. No transmission anymore with its up to 30% power losses! Each wheel with its own built-in motor. Simple construction - low amortization, high reliability and light overall weight.
Even today you can see Kooper / Eagle / MyWay light electric scooters (korkinet) with brushless motors on the streets of TA rided by people abandoned their gasoline scooters and even motorcycles!

matrix2020 · July 19th, 2012, 06:43 PM

I am glad to hear that.
Funny that you should mention the scooters.
Couldn't agree more that it is the preferable means of transportation in a city like Tel Aviv.
What are the prices like for such a scooter (My Way)?

elab · July 19th, 2012, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by matrix2020

What are the prices like for such a scooter (My Way)?

8-8.3K

http://www.mywayi.com/index.php

matrix2020 · July 19th, 2012, 08:08 PM

Thanks for the link.
Price is not too bad.

yerushalmi · July 21st, 2012, 01:23 PM

עכשיו עם החניה חינם בתל אביב אנשים שהשתמשו בפתרונות כאלה יחזרו לרכב והעיר תיסתם

elab · July 21st, 2012, 06:21 PM

וכשעיר תסתם הם יחזרו לפתרונות כאלה

yerushalmi · July 24th, 2012, 11:36 AM

פתרונות כאלו עדיין יקרים
אנשים יעדיפו אופניים אבל זה טוב רק לתחבורה במרכז העיר

elab · July 24th, 2012, 02:37 PM

אמש זרקתי פאסאט שלי למוסך "צ'מפיון" בחולון (ליד "ימית "2000), עליתי על הקורקינט שלי ותוך חצי שעה הייתי בבן יהודה בתל-אביב. נתתי לו שם 40 דקות "פוש" באחד מבתי קפה וקפצתי לתחנת רכבת - עוד 40 דקות הייתי בחדרה + 10 דקות נסיעה מתחנה הביתה
That's it.

זה לא אני....

yerushalmi · July 27th, 2012, 07:57 PM

yerushalmi · July 28th, 2012, 02:57 PM

הרעיון של קורקינט חשמלי הוא מצוין וחסכוני אבל פסיכולוגית קשה לאנשים להיפרד מהמושב של הרכב עם ההגה והפוזה

elab · July 28th, 2012, 09:26 PM

Full parking near Hadera-West railway station:

By my estimation there are several hundred vehicles that don't participate in everyday traffic jam. And it is the first step.
Another step will be to push some of them to leave their cars at home and to arrive the station by bus or "green" vehicles...

July 15th, 2012, 05:12 PM	#1
yerushalmi BANNED Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 3,249 Likes (Received): 2	Better Place starts selling electric cars Better Place announced it started selling its Renault Fluence ZE to the public, so far 260 cars are on the road, another 1,550 ordered by company fleets and 330 by the public. The priceis 121k and BPL now also offers the electric car without its charging system, for an extra 77k. לאחר לא מעט הצהרות קודמות הכריזה הבוקר (א') חברת בטר פלייס על תחילת המכירה של מכוניות חשמליות. עד עתה העלתה בטר פלייס על כבישי ישראל כ-260 מכוניות חשמליות מסוג רנו פלואנס ZE. כמחציתן נמסרו לעובדי החברה וכ-40 מהן לציי רכב לצורך "השקה רכה" שבה נבחנו המכוניות, רשת הטעינה ועשר תחנות ההחלפה שכבר הוקמו. זאת לעומת הבטחות קודמות למסירת אלפים רבים של מכוניות והשלמת רשת הטעינה הארצית עוד לקראת סוף השנה שעברה. הבשורה החשובה יותר שבטר פלייס מביאה הבוקר היא שינוי מוחלט של שיטת התמחור, בעקבות ביקורת רבה שהושמעה לגבי שיטת התמחור הקודמת של החברה. מחיר המכונית עצמה, ללקוחות פרטיים, מתחיל ב-121,200 שקל לדגם הבסיסי שכולל גם מערכת ניווט ותקשורת עם מרכז השליטה של החברה. לקוח שירצה לרכוש גם את הסוללה החשמלית, וכך לא להיות תלוי בשירותי הטעינה של החברה, יידרש להוסיף עוד 77 אלף שקל. link

July 19th, 2012, 10:13 AM	#10
elab Tran$portation fan Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Highway No.2 (TA-Hadera) Posts: 649 Likes (Received): 29	Thanks for good wishes! Well, range is a matter of time (hopefully soon). The "Big Jump" is expected because there is the huge progress in BIM (Brushless Integrated Motor) technology. No transmission anymore with its up to 30% power losses! Each wheel with its own built-in motor. Simple construction - low amortization, high reliability and light overall weight. Even today you can see Kooper / Eagle / MyWay light electric scooters (korkinet) with brushless motors on the streets of TA rided by people abandoned their gasoline scooters and even motorcycles! Last edited by elab; July 19th, 2012 at 10:20 AM.

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

July 15th, 2012, 07:01 PM	#2
matrix2020 Registered User Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 668 Likes (Received): 54	So far I am not impressed with the initiative. It has been mostly publicity and lots of bold statements. I dont think Electric cars are a viable solution using current technology. I would think it will be mostly used in Tel Aviv since such cars can be practical mostly for short distance rides. For now hybrid cars make much more sense and it is too bad the Government is not doing enough to encourage their use (lower taxes on hybrid models).

July 17th, 2012, 06:50 AM	#3
Hadera BANNED Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 19 Likes (Received): 0	The problem is is that nobody will by them. People will have to re-learn the way they drive and refuel their car.

July 17th, 2012, 09:10 AM	#4
elab Tran$portation fan Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Highway No.2 (TA-Hadera) Posts: 649 Likes (Received): 29	They should fill leasing-market with electric cars first. Also useful to add e-powered vehicles for rent. People have to see and to learn them more. Bring more models: available and "sexy". Push them to businesses for affordable price and develop second-hand market... Long-term investment is a key here. And it begins to work in more and more places. Example. One of the hotels in Helsinki uses e-powered car for its everyday needs: Street power point:

July 18th, 2012, 12:25 PM	#5
matrix2020 Registered User Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 668 Likes (Received): 54	elab, how exactly a business can push those cars at affordable prices? These cars are more expensive to produce, do you expect a business to sell these cars and lose money in the process? Or do you propose the Government intervention and subsidizing that? How is the car that can only go for 150km on a charge practical in any conditions besides short rides to work and home in a city? I am actually surprised that the cars are "only" 121k, I would expect them to be even more expensive. Also, how do you plan to deal with used batteries that require lots of effort to recycle? I won't even mention how bad for the environment is production of these cars. There was an article (I think it was Wired) that showed how the land looks like around the factories in China producing batteries for these cars. Trust me its not pretty. Why not have a little patience and develop something that actually works before selling junk to people?

July 18th, 2012, 09:16 PM	#6
elab Tran$portation fan Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Highway No.2 (TA-Hadera) Posts: 649 Likes (Received): 29	I don't know how bad look factory surroundings in China, but surroundings of SilverPick (Nevada, US) look quite clean - K2 Corp. (one of the leading Litium Fosfate & Polymer batteries producer), as well as factories in California, Massachusetts, Germany, France and even Russia. Don't buy oil-monsters propaganda against new technology! They are so clean with all their refinery plants and oil platforms (in Mexican gulf)....... Better Place have lost the battle with conventional/hybride cars importers lobby in Israel. Government wants taxes today much more then 4 years ago. 60% import tax only for batteries! I "eat" it with my efforts to enter LiFoPO4 20A batteries for electric scooters... BTW, 10 of them is one unit for Renault Fluence... same technology. And Better Place made a mistake choosing family-class middlesize sedan. They had to begin with something smaller, Ride-In-City like Peugeot Ion or smth. like this. Today you can rent such electric mini for 500 euro a month (in France, for example) with low maintenance and 120 km range in city traffic.

July 18th, 2012, 10:15 PM	#7
matrix2020 Registered User Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 668 Likes (Received): 54	Small cars do make some sense. Large cars with current rechargeable batteries technology are simply not viable. And even small cars are only good for driving inside the city. And elab, I was in China myself and its not pretty (in Shanghai which is one of the cleanest cities there). Bejing was awful (I couldn't breathe there). I actually support hybrid technology. It makes alot of sense at this moment. As for Israel, I think the best option now is to move cars to natural gas. We have enough to supply us for the next 20-30 years.

July 19th, 2012, 09:28 AM	#8
elab Tran$portation fan Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Highway No.2 (TA-Hadera) Posts: 649 Likes (Received): 29	Just to clarify, today e-power technology made significant progress: LiFePO4 type batteries allow more then 1600 full charge cycles! Even if you charge your vehicle every day these battery will serve you 5 years! BUT: today in Israel 20A/48V battery cluster alone costs about 3.5-4K NIS. Electric car needs the set of 10-20 of them (depends on vehicle size & weight). It is up to government and its will to cancel or at least to reduce import taxes on electric power supply units giving a push to "green" industry in Israel. And "we" work on it. Wait for this October....... Wrong decision: Right decision:

July 19th, 2012, 09:41 AM	#9
matrix2020 Registered User Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 668 Likes (Received): 54	My main issue is not number of recharge cycles (though this is just as important) but the capacity. I want to see a serially produced car that can go for 300 kilometers. How far are we from that? Good luck to you, but don't expect me lining up and spending a few tens of thousands of shekels for the environment I will be prepared to buy such a car only if it is actually cheaper then gasoline powered car and also performs better. Just to clarify, I don't have a car and prefer using cabs Hope you find enough people who care. Oh and don't expect the Government to lower taxes anytime soon. Consider the influence and lobbying power of major car importers and I think it is will become clear that this is not something that can happen in the next 50 years or so. Unless of course everyone in Israel starts to care more about the environment then they do about their wallet.

July 19th, 2012, 06:43 PM	#11
matrix2020 Registered User Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 668 Likes (Received): 54	I am glad to hear that. Funny that you should mention the scooters. Couldn't agree more that it is the preferable means of transportation in a city like Tel Aviv. What are the prices like for such a scooter (My Way)?

July 19th, 2012, 08:08 PM	#13
matrix2020 Registered User Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 668 Likes (Received): 54	Thanks for the link. Price is not too bad.

July 21st, 2012, 01:23 PM	#14
yerushalmi BANNED Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 3,249 Likes (Received): 2	עכשיו עם החניה חינם בתל אביב אנשים שהשתמשו בפתרונות כאלה יחזרו לרכב והעיר תיסתם

July 21st, 2012, 06:21 PM	#15
elab Tran$portation fan Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Highway No.2 (TA-Hadera) Posts: 649 Likes (Received): 29	וכשעיר תסתם הם יחזרו לפתרונות כאלה

July 24th, 2012, 11:36 AM	#16
yerushalmi BANNED Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 3,249 Likes (Received): 2	פתרונות כאלו עדיין יקרים אנשים יעדיפו אופניים אבל זה טוב רק לתחבורה במרכז העיר

July 24th, 2012, 02:37 PM	#17
elab Tran$portation fan Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Highway No.2 (TA-Hadera) Posts: 649 Likes (Received): 29	אמש זרקתי פאסאט שלי למוסך "צ'מפיון" בחולון (ליד "ימית "2000), עליתי על הקורקינט שלי ותוך חצי שעה הייתי בבן יהודה בתל-אביב. נתתי לו שם 40 דקות "פוש" באחד מבתי קפה וקפצתי לתחנת רכבת - עוד 40 דקות הייתי בחדרה + 10 דקות נסיעה מתחנה הביתה That's it. זה לא אני....

July 27th, 2012, 07:57 PM	#18
yerushalmi BANNED Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 3,249 Likes (Received): 2

July 28th, 2012, 02:57 PM	#19
yerushalmi BANNED Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 3,249 Likes (Received): 2	הרעיון של קורקינט חשמלי הוא מצוין וחסכוני אבל פסיכולוגית קשה לאנשים להיפרד מהמושב של הרכב עם ההגה והפוזה

July 28th, 2012, 09:26 PM	#20
elab Tran$portation fan Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Highway No.2 (TA-Hadera) Posts: 649 Likes (Received): 29	Full parking near Hadera-West railway station: By my estimation there are several hundred vehicles that don't participate in everyday traffic jam. And it is the first step. Another step will be to push some of them to leave their cars at home and to arrive the station by bus or "green" vehicles...