TRANSPORT | Northern Hub

[Comdot]

A lot to read. Not read it all yet. Overall it's a no-brainer. London's rail network is painful for everyone who uses it so perhaps they're thinking that things can be done in other cities. I've a few ideas.

Isn't the line next to City Stadium disused? I think it's disused. Can't that be used to get people from Piccadilly to Victoria and also, direct from Rochdale, Halifax and Bradford to Manchester Airport? This could open up other opportunities and optional new stations whereas the Ardwick flyover isn't a huge plan. The Ardwick flyover just "takes trains from the East lines across the other tracks", thus enabling them to continue after Piccadilly and not have to terminate at Piccadilly. A good idea but more could be done than this. The report admits that the flyover does "still not allow direct services between Manchester Airport and Rochdale, Halifax and Bradford, which cannot be provided without a direct connection between Manchester Piccadilly and Manchester Victoria."
- what they're saying is that you even with the Ordsall Curve you'd still have to go to Victoria and then on to Piccadilly to get to the airport if you were coming from Rochdale, Halifax and Bradford. Presumably what people do now is change at Leeds? Does Leeds go direct to the airport?

The Ordsall Curve - not rocket science but a great idea. Where will Stephenson's Rocket still fly out of the Science and Industry Museum over that bridge or are they not demolishing the line it uses? :P

Anyway, back to my idea- take people on the line that goes next to City Stadium and you've solved another problem: the dual line from Piccadilly to Oxford Road is a black spot in peak times and is going to get quite uncomfortable if rail growth continues "[in Manchester area] between 39% and 150%".

My line idea would also open up a big area east of the city centre.

I guess my idea would be too expensive to do as an ADDITION to the two great ideas. These two tweaks (Ordsall Curve, Ardwick Flyover) are good.

Lastly, to quote the letter:

"The NMS is at its weakest and least specific in dealing with freight traffic. It should be
admitted that freight traffic is inherently more difficult to deal with, and the NMS comes
close to admitting both that they find it difficult to provide for any enhancement of freight
capacity without considerably increasing access charges, and that any such increase would
reduce the demand for rail freight, rather than increasing it. Even so, their forecasts for the
possible growth in freight over ten years ranges between 39% and 150%"

- half of it is going to Trafford Park and most of it is going between Oxford Road and Piccadilly. This link is poor at peak times, especially when a 'mile-long' load of freight rolls through with a Virgin train up it's arse when I'm waiting for a train to say, Leyland, which has its platform changed because one from Liverpool has now rolled in, resulting in me accidentally getting on the wrong train.

[jrb]

Rail chief urges £50bn high-speed network
08:02 | 25.01.08

Britain must build a network of high-speed rail lines by 2020 to prevent existing services from being overwhelmed by demand, and provide a greener alternative to air travel, says the chief executive of Network Rail.The Times.

Iain Coucher is proposing three new lines operating at up to 200mph: from London to Glasgow via Birmingham and Manchester; London to Edinburgh via Leeds and Newcastle upon Tyne; and London to Cardiff via Bristol.

He will commission a detailed study soon into possible routes for a network that is likely to cost more than £50 billion to complete. Network Rail has decided to take a lead after becoming frustrated by the Department for Transport’s lack of progress on the issue of high-speed rail.

The Labour manifesto for the 2005 general election promised to look at the feasibility and affordability of a new North-South high-speed link. Despite admitting that existing lines will struggle to cope with demand, the Government has said that it will not make a decision until 2012.

[Caiman]

is likely to cost more than £50 billion to complete

That's where I stopped reading and started laughing, who's going to pay for that, because our government certainly won't.

[andysimo123]

Northern Rail Hub Must Happen Say City Leaders

Don't drive vital infrastructure improvements off the rails say councils

MANCHESTER City Council has joined forces with four other cities in the north of England to urge the government to fund the Northern Hub programme, a major rail improvement scheme that would generate £4bn in economic benefits.

We need more capacity on our railways and faster, more frequent rail links between our cities, and that’s what the Northern Hub can deliver.
The leaders of Manchester, Sheffield, Liverpool, Leeds and Newcastle City Councils have written jointly to the Chancellor of the Exchequer to stress how important it will be for the Treasury to commit to the £560 million scheme, in full, for delivery between 2014 and 2019.

The Northern Hub proposals, developed by Network Rail, would unlock the capacity constraints of the north’s rail network – currently a significant obstacle to economic growth – and would enable 700 more trains to run every day across the region.

This equates to around 44 million more passenger journeys every year, making rail travel a more attractive option for commuting, business and leisure and generating up to 30,000 regional jobs.

As well as the full support of the five biggest cities in the north, the Northern Hub also has public support, with over 83 per cent of those surveyed agreeing with the scheme and 80 per cent saying they will be more likely to travel by train if the plans are carried out.

Transport for Greater Manchester (TfGM) is working with council leaders, MPs and business communities across the north to push for the Northern Hub to be funded as a complete package, rather than on a piecemeal basis, in order for the economic potential of the scheme to be fulfilled.

Sir Richard Leese, Leader of Manchester City Council, said: “This isn’t a situation where we’re competing for funding with other cities: we’ll all benefit from the boost to jobs and the economy that the Hub will provide.

“If Greater Manchester and the wider north are to reach their full economic potential, we need more capacity on our railways and faster, more frequent rail links between our cities, and that’s what the Northern Hub can deliver.”

Councillor Andrew Fender, Chair of the TfGM Committee, said: “The Northern Hub scheme has clear and significant benefits for Greater Manchester and the whole of the north of England.

“It makes sense for us to work with the other major cities in the region to support the Hub proposals by urging the Chancellor to commit to funding them in full, and soon.”

http://www.manchesterconfidential.co...y-City-Leaders

[VoldemortBlack]

The government will listen to Manchester. It's often used against us on the City Talk forums, but Manchester really is Whitehall's pet.

I'll be very annoyed if this doesn't happen and the money is diverted to some quango in Londinium.

[andysimo123]

Originally Posted by VoldemortBlack

The government will listen to Manchester. It's often used against us on the City Talk forums, but Manchester really is Whitehall's pet.

I'll be very annoyed if this doesn't happen and the money is diverted to some quango in Londinium.

Can't really use that argument or moan on this one. Got 5 major cities behind this.

[WatcherZero]

Manchesters strength is it builds concensus, it doesnt say I want, it says with one voice we want.

[VoldemortBlack]

Originally Posted by andysimo123

Can't really use that argument or moan on this one. Got 5 major cities behind this.

Unfortunately those 5 cities have one thing in common: they're outside of London.

Government doesn't care, unless the city in question has an M25 around it.

[andysimo123]

Originally Posted by VoldemortBlack

Unfortunately those 5 cities have one thing in common: they're outside of London.

Government doesn't care, unless the city in question has an M25 around it.

Let's change the m60 to the m25 problem solved.

[link_road_17/7]

Originally Posted by andysimo123

Let's change the m60 to the m25 problem solved.

Regional/devolved government (and thus transport spending) would be the answer, but Little England(ers) doesn't like such 'European' ideas. Westminster and Whitehall always know 'best'.

[Joseph_Locke]

Originally Posted by Comdot

Isn't the line next to City Stadium disused?

No, it isn't.

I think it's disused.

No, it isn't, honest.

Can't that be used to get people from Piccadilly to Victoria and also, direct from Rochdale, Halifax and Bradford to Manchester Airport?

No, because the bit from Ardwick to Philips Park South was bombed out and never replaced. Reinstatement was studied in 2000 by Railtrack ("Midland Curve") but still requires a reversal at Picc and such trains to cross the WCML.

This could open up other opportunities and optional new stations whereas the Ardwick flyover isn't a huge plan. The Ardwick flyover just "takes trains from the East lines across the other tracks", thus enabling them to continue after Piccadilly and not have to terminate at Piccadilly. A good idea but more could be done than this. The report admits that the flyover does "still not allow direct services between Manchester Airport and Rochdale, Halifax and Bradford, which cannot be provided without a direct connection between Manchester Piccadilly and Manchester Victoria."- what they're saying is that you even with the Ordsall Curve you'd still have to go to Victoria and then on to Piccadilly to get to the airport if you were coming from Rochdale, Halifax and Bradford. Presumably what people do now is change at Leeds? Does Leeds go direct to the airport?

But what you haven't realised is that Stalybridge - Vic - Chord - Picc - MIA is actually marginally quicker than Stalybridge - Ardwick - Picc (reverse) - Ardwick - MIA and allows additional City centre pick-ups on airport - NE services and frees up paths on the WCML as freebie.

The Ordsall Curve - not rocket science but a great idea.

Thank you.

Where will Stephenson's Rocket still fly out of the Science and Industry Museum over that bridge or are they not demolishing the line it uses? :P

A single option has not yet been selected.

Anyway, back to my idea- take people on the line that goes next to City Stadium and you've solved another problem: the dual line from Piccadilly to Oxford Road is a black spot in peak times and is going to get quite uncomfortable if rail growth continues "[in Manchester area] between 39% and 150%".

See above; it doesn't solve all the problems the Chord does. That doesn't rule the Midland Curve or Ardwick Flyover out. Also, most TPE services will go Liverpool - Vic - Leeds, which dramatically reduces the traffic on the Oxford Road Corridor.

My line idea would also open up a big area east of the city centre.

... an area now served by Metrolink ...

I guess my idea would be too expensive to do as an ADDITION to the two great ideas. These two tweaks (Ordsall Curve, Ardwick Flyover) are good.

Expensive possibly, but definitely no business case. Ardwick Flyover doesn't "fit" with the overall plan; the money would be better spent sorting Victoria West to Ordsall Lane inclusive (watch this space).

Lastly, to quote the letter:

"The NMS ... This link is poor at peak times, especially when a 'mile-long' load of freight rolls through with a Virgin train up it's arse when I'm waiting for a train to say, Leyland, which has its platform changed because one from Liverpool has now rolled in, resulting in me accidentally getting on the wrong train.

You assume that Trafford Park remains when Port Salford opens. Also, what Virgin service through Oxford Road is that then?

[Rail Ranger]

Three comments if I may:

1. The Ardwick Junction to Midland Junction spur was not "bombed out". The line was closed in the 1960s and the missing arch visible from the train was demolished later.

2. The WCML goes from Euston to Glasgow via Crewe and Warrington (i.e nowhere near Manchester).

3. Surely the diversion of the Liverpool-Leeds service via Victoria will only take one train each hour in each direction off the section of line between Castlefield Junction and Piccadilly?

[andysimo123]

You do know that post was from 2007 and comdot lives on a boat outside Bath with no Internet connection?

[hulmeman2]

Originally Posted by Rail Ranger

Three comments if I may:

1. The Ardwick Junction to Midland Junction spur was not "bombed out". The line was closed in the 1960s and the missing arch visible from the train was demolished later.

2. The WCML goes from Euston to Glasgow via Crewe and Warrington (i.e nowhere near Manchester).

3. Surely the diversion of the Liverpool-Leeds service via Victoria will only take one train each hour in each direction off the section of line between Castlefield Junction and Piccadilly?

2. WCML is also Stoke>Mcr, Crewe>Mcr, Crewe>L'pool.

3. (edit) Northern to B'pool could also switch.

[Cherguevara]

Originally Posted by andysimo123

You do know that post was from 2007 and comdot lives on a boat outside Bath with no Internet connection?

Does he really? I hope he's doing alright. It's a nice part of the world, but a bit of a change.

Originally Posted by Joseph_Locke

Expensive possibly, but definitely no business case. Ardwick Flyover doesn't "fit" with the overall plan; the money would be better spent sorting Victoria West to Ordsall Lane inclusive (watch this space).

Sorting is a very vague term. What exactly are the problems in that area?

[andysimo123]

Originally Posted by Cherguevara

Does he really? I hope he's doing alright. It's a nice part of the world, but a bit of a change.

Thats the last I heard but it was a fair while ago.

[WatcherZero]

Originally Posted by Rail Ranger

3. Surely the diversion of the Liverpool-Leeds service via Victoria will only take one train each hour in each direction off the section of line between Castlefield Junction and Piccadilly?

Two, TPE are going to use the 185's freed up from electrification to add another hourly Liverpool-Manchester-Leeds-Newcastle service from Dec 2013, unless they route it via Victoria from the start.

[Joseph_Locke]

Originally Posted by andysimo123

You do know that post was from 2007 and comdot lives on a boat outside Bath with no Internet connection?

Wow, four years later and he's still wrong - that's future proofing a post.

Also, non-participation in a transport system is no reason not to post about it on here

Ranger:
1. I understood, from a very venerable colleague, that the Midland Junction end took a hit in WWII. In any case, major pieces of viaduct are missing, like this one http://g.co/maps/qw7ma

2. This may be true of the main line from a historical point of view, but as HM2 points out it is no longer true today.

3. <nothing to add>

Che:
errr ... 10/25mph, stupid short signal sections, a lack of crossovers ...., need I go on?

[Cherguevara]

Originally Posted by Joseph_Locke

Che:
errr ... 10/25mph, stupid short signal sections, a lack of crossovers ...., need I go on?

I don't know; is there anything else? All information is valued.

[Marksy_1]

Northern Hub enters 'critical' stage – Ellman

By David Casey, Assistant Editor, insider NW

Businesses must continue to bang the drum for the £560m Northern Hub rail scheme as it enters a "critical" stage in the approval process, according to the chairman of the Transport Select Committee.

Liverpool Riverside MP Louise Ellman told Insider that fears are growing that the government will try and "reduce the scope" of the scheme meaning its full benefits will not be realised.

She said: "Businesses need to keep on stressing the case for the Northern Hub and its importance to the economy. We're at a very critical time. There is a general concern that there might be an attempt to reduce the scope and try to divide it up into different phases.

"It is therefore very important that companies keep applying pressure for the Northern Hub to be approved in full. If it doesn’t go ahead in full it will be a major setback and region imbalances will continue."

The Northern Hub is a package of rail improvements allowing as many as 700 more trains a day to run on railways across the North. This equates to about 44 million more passenger journeys every year and could generate up to 30,000 regional jobs.

The government has already given the go-ahead to one part of the package – the £85m Ordsall Chord which will link Manchester Piccadilly and Victoria stations for the first time.

But Network Rail has now been asked to reassess the remaining nine elements of the Hub package to ensure it is value for money. A decision on whether the scheme will get the go-ahead in full is expected to be announced in July.

Ellman said: "For decades, rail infrastructure spend has been concentrated on the south and the South East. If you look at the transport spending in different regions, nearly three times as much per head is invested in transport in London and the South East than is invested in the north.

"But the Northern Hub is a major opportunity to make a difference. However, businesses have to make their views known and apply pressure on MPs and councils."

Ellman was speaking at the Rail in the North conference, held in Liverpool yesterday (15 February 2012) and organised by the Liverpool and Greater Manchester Chambers of Commerce. Other speakers included Wirral West MP Esther McVey, Peter Nears from Peel Group and Network Rail's Duncan Law.

Her comments come days after the leaders of Manchester, Sheffield, Liverpool, Leeds and Newcastle councils sent a joint letter to Chancellor George Osborne to stress to the Treasury the importance of approving the £560m Northern Hub in full.

Insider is also calling for the scheme to be approved. Click here for more information on the Back the Bid campaign.