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Old February 16th, 2012, 11:14 AM   #81
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[QUOTE=Joseph_Locke;88569602]nk ...
Expensive possibly, but definitely no business case. Ardwick Flyover doesn't "fit" with the overall plan; the money would be better spent sorting Victoria West to Ordsall Lane inclusive (watch this space).


Intrigued - for how long might we be expected to watch this space? Network Rail's staff at the "Consultation" exercise were endemically vague about this when asked.Has the penny dropped that something has got to be done? If your answer is something on the lines of if you tell me I'll have to eat you - I'll just pop out and fire up the barbecue now.
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Old February 16th, 2012, 11:20 AM   #82
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My advice is wait for the March 2012 budget.....
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Old February 16th, 2012, 12:02 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WatcherZero View Post
My advice is wait for the March 2012 budget.....
Something to do with this perhaps:

http://www.insidermedia.com/insider/...-stage-ellman/
quote

Northern Hub enters 'critical' stage – Ellman
Last updated: 16th Feb 2012 at 07:54am


Businesses must continue to bang the drum for the £560m Northern Hub rail scheme as it enters a "critical" stage in the approval process, according to the chairman of the Transport Select Committee.

MP Louise Ellman told Insider that fears are growing that the government will try and "reduce the scope" of the scheme meaning its full benefits will not be realised.

She said: "Businesses need to keep on stressing the case for the Northern Hub and its importance to the economy. We're at a very critical time. There is a general concern that there might be an attempt to reduce the scope and try to divide it up into different phases.

"It is therefore very important that companies keep applying pressure for the Northern Hub to be approved in full. If it doesn’t go ahead in full it will be a major setback and region imbalances will continue."

The Northern Hub is a package of rail improvements allowing as many as 700 more trains a day to run on railways across the North. This equates to about 44 million more passenger journeys every year and could generate up to 30,000 regional jobs.

The government has already given the go-ahead to one part of the package – the £85m Ordsall Chord which will link Manchester Piccadilly and Victoria stations for the first time.

But Network Rail has now been asked to reassess the remaining nine elements of the Hub package to ensure it is value for money. A decision on whether the scheme will get the go-ahead in full is expected to be announced in July.

Ellman said: "For decades, rail infrastructure spend has been concentrated on the south and the South East. If you look at the transport spending in different regions, nearly three times as much per head is invested in transport in London and the South East than is invested in the north.

"But the Northern Hub is a major opportunity to make a difference. However, businesses have to make their views known and apply pressure on MPs and councils."

Ellman was speaking at the Rail in the North conference, held in Liverpool yesterday (15 February 2012) and organised by the Liverpool and Greater Manchester Chambers of Commerce. Other speakers included Wirral West MP Esther McVey, Peter Nears from Peel Group and Network Rail's Duncan Law.

Her comments come days after the leaders of Manchester, Sheffield, Liverpool, Leeds and Newcastle councils sent a joint letter to Chancellor George Osborne to stress to the Treasury the importance of approving the £560m Northern Hub in full.

unquote
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Old February 16th, 2012, 01:16 PM   #84
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Just know that there are people in high places, just waiting to shaft the North again.

Value for money is correct and proper, but it seems to work on differing frequencies in different parts of the Treasury.

But I am ready to think that in this case, we might actually see some parity and sensible investment when this is all revealed. A couple of projects held back, but not postponed and some punning that will not affect the whole scheme.

I can imagine Treasury folk looking at this and seeing it as an easy project to pick at. But my guts tell my the opposite.

Personally I propose that the Northern Hub is passed over to a failing bank in the City of London, is turned into an Olympian sport, run by the Ministry of Defence, registered in the Seychelles and then Subcontracted as part of an aid project for the Mumbai middle classes.

Sorted.
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Old February 16th, 2012, 02:52 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heatonparkincakes View Post
Just know that there are people in high places, just waiting to shaft the North again.

Value for money is correct and proper, but it seems to work on differing frequencies in different parts of the Treasury.
Oh please not this conspiracy theory stuff again. Please

Do you think that those 'in high places' as you put it, are permanently engaged in how to do bad things to the north? It would surprise you how many people in high places in Whitehall are from the North. You would need to be down there to understand how badly this kind of whingeing comes across. We associate it with scousers of course with the famous chip on the shoulder but in the eyes of many, we mancs are not far behind. And it's a deeply unhealthy attitude that damages, not enhances our image to the outside world..

We do best when we argue our case objectively not subjectively.

Can you not see the irony in slating off people from Liverpool who say it's not fair that Manchester always 'gets the money' whilst at the same time bleating that Manchester always loses out to the South East?

You are right in saying that government investment decisions are taken on a value for money basis using a form of cost benefit analysis. This is highly codified in the so called 'Green Book'. This is considered by many an international body as an exemplar.
Where this practise struggles of course is that it relies on subjective judgements on the value of the 'benefits'. This one issue is at the heart of the debate over whether the HS2 line is value for money, or not.
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Old February 16th, 2012, 03:59 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lookin Up View Post
Oh please not this conspiracy theory stuff again. Please

Do you think that those 'in high places' as you put it, are permanently engaged in how to do bad things to the north? It would surprise you how many people in high places in Whitehall are from the North. You would need to be down there to understand how badly this kind of whingeing comes across. We associate it with scousers of course with the famous chip on the shoulder but in the eyes of many, we mancs are not far behind. And it's a deeply unhealthy attitude that damages, not enhances our image to the outside world..

We do best when we argue our case objectively not subjectively.

Can you not see the irony in slating off people from Liverpool who say it's not fair that Manchester always 'gets the money' whilst at the same time bleating
that Manchester always loses out to the South East?

You are right in saying that government investment decisions are taken on a value for money basis using a form of cost benefit analysis. This is highly codified in the so called 'Green Book'. This is considered by many an
international body as an exemplar.
Where this practise struggles of course is that it relies on subjective judgements on the value of the 'benefits'. This one issue is at the heart of the
debate over whether the HS2 line is value for money, or not.

Your point on my point is not my point with the greatest of respect, but I
apologize for the inflammatory language at the start.

A powerful whisper is sometimes better than an empty shout

The Northern Hub. If this gets reduced to a mere chord (unlikely) it will be a shafting.

But continuing the pressure is no bad thing. I am glad that the sensible folk of
the Liverpool Chamber of Trade ran the conference from which Louise Ellman is quoted from above. Good on them.

If the Northern Hub plan is sensibly re balanced in this era of economic
underinvested, then it will be a huge bonus for the North.

If the whole shebang with nobs on arrives, then even better.

It still will need the public owned private run train companies to match the investment on infrastructure as well. No point of electrification if a pacer is running under wires.

Trust me brother, there is and will be other priorities of the UK state to invest in public transport in places like the North, south London and the west of England.

Some of it is structural, some because bigger margins can be achieved
elsewhere and some because of the bias of central government, even despite the excellent instructive" Green" book.

Prefer cock up theories than conspiracy theories. More realistic.
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Last edited by heatonparkincakes; February 16th, 2012 at 04:09 PM. Reason: Don't always taken my posts seriously!!!
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Old February 16th, 2012, 06:35 PM   #87
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Quote:
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Prefer cock up theories than conspiracy theories. More realistic.
Think I'm with you on that one.

We both agree on wanting this project to go ahead. I'm just saying if you're doing sums on your abacus in Whitehall, calls of 'it's not fair, the big boys keep playing with the ball' will just irritate decision makers. Let's keep it objective.
People take us seriously that way.

It's worth remembering too that the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the Deputy Prime Minister, the Foreign Secretary and the Communities Secretary all have constituencies in the North. Friends in high places indeed.
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Old February 17th, 2012, 12:29 AM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lookin Up View Post
Can you not see the irony in slating off people from Liverpool who say it's not fair that Manchester always 'gets the money' whilst at the same time bleating that Manchester always loses out to the South East?
One slight problem with that analysis - the South East does receive far more money per person than any other part of England. It's difficult to claim someone is acting like a conspiracist when there are facts to back up the argument.

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It's worth remembering too that the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the Deputy Prime Minister, the Foreign Secretary and the Communities Secretary all have constituencies in the North. Friends in high places indeed.
That was a joke right?!

The Deputy PM an Chancellor are not Northerners. They are Southern public-school boys who got parachuted into Northern constituencies.

And as for Hague and Pickles, there's nowt worse than a Yorkshire Tory.
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Old February 17th, 2012, 09:03 AM   #89
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Quote:
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The Deputy PM an Chancellor are not Northerners. They are Southern public-school boys who got parachuted into Northern constituencies.
Indeed and if rumour hath it right, the Right Honourable Member for Tatton will be seeking another seat following the reallocation of constituencies. The bens and glens of deepest Kensington and Chelsea beckon if the current parliamentary crofter,the Rifkind of that ilk, decides to retire. IIRC the Chancellor already maintains(maintained) a wee bothy in those parts. As for the inference that he is some form of superior being parachuted into the north - again in Cranford, (which may contain Knuts), he is seen as being descended from trade - paper hanging AIUI.
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Old February 17th, 2012, 09:05 AM   #90
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-17055487

The story rolls on.
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Old February 17th, 2012, 08:00 PM   #91
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One slight problem with that analysis - the South East does receive far more money per person than any other part of England. It's difficult to claim someone is acting like a conspiracist when there are facts to back up the argument.

Oh come on, it's because it's got more population, bigger GDP etc it's not an anti-north thing. You're sounding like an embittered scouser moaning about how unfair it is that Manchester gets more money than Liverpool.

That was a joke right?!

The Deputy PM an Chancellor are not Northerners. They are Southern public-school boys who got parachuted into Northern constituencies.

Didn't say they were northerners. Mind you I'm guessing your avatar gives away a certain amount of political bias and you were unable to see through that to the actual words used. The point I was making was that those mentioned have northern constituencies and are therefore mindful of the impact of investment decisions on votes.

And as for Hague and Pickles, there's nowt worse than a Yorkshire Tory.

Yes there is. A complete bigot
....
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Old February 17th, 2012, 08:27 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WatcherZero View Post
My advice is wait for the March 2012 budget.....
I, for one will be agog. Sadly the Department of Daft might not be in full possession of the required facts by then.

Quote:
If your answer is something on the lines of if you tell me I'll have to eat you - I'll just pop out and fire up the barbecue now
If you mean what I think you mean, then that should have read:

Quote:
Something on the lines of if you tell me you'll get drummed out of the Brownies never to be involved in a major rail development scheme ever again.
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Old February 17th, 2012, 08:59 PM   #93
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They do have a habit of approving schemes subject to final evaluation, for example Midland Metro expansion was only given final approval this week despite being in last budget.
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Old February 18th, 2012, 12:38 AM   #94
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Oh come on, it's because it's got more population, bigger GDP etc it's not an anti-north thing.
Do you not understand the difference between getting more money overall and getting more money per person?

The South East gets more money spent on transport per person than any other part of England. And not even a little bit more, a huge amount more.

Regardless of what way you look at it, the spending disparity is not justifiable. The South East gets given the grand projects. The North gets the crumbs off the table.

Quote:
You're sounding like an embittered scouser
And you sound like a first class prat. And one with an obvious agenda too.

Quote:
The point I was making was that those mentioned have northern constituencies and are therefore mindful of the impact of investment decisions on votes.
Any actual evidence for this?

I seem to remember Mr. Clegg doing rather well at running Sheffield into the ground when he became Deputy PM. Forgemasters anyone?

Quote:
Yes there is. A complete bigot
I'm not quite sure exactly what year it was that the United Nations declared mocking of Yorkshiremen to be a breach of fundamental human rights, but please refresh my memory.

We should probably have John Cleese and the Monty Python team up in the Hague before long.

Nora Batty's stockings can be given world heritage status by UNESCO.
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Old February 18th, 2012, 02:26 AM   #95
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Quote:
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The South East gets more money spent on transport per person than any other part of England. And not even a little bit more, a huge amount more.
Doesn't it enter your head that costs (land, construction, spoil movements, labour costs, etc.) down here are higher, therefore need a larger share of the pie?

Investing in these projects generates substanial income and productivity gains. For example, one station I manage in the former NSE area generates more income in a day than some TfGM area stations manage in a whole year.

I also find Champagne Socialists, of which there are plenty in the North, far more sickening than public school boy southerners or Yorkshire Tories, having betrayed the very people they are supposed to represent and fight for.
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Old February 18th, 2012, 09:54 AM   #96
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Quote:
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Doesn't it enter your head that costs (land, construction, spoil movements, labour costs, etc.) down here are higher, therefore need a larger share of the pie?

Investing in these projects generates substanial income and productivity gains. For example, one station I manage in the former NSE area generates more income in a day than some TfGM area stations manage in a whole year.

I also find Champagne Socialists, of which there are plenty in the North, far more sickening than public school boy southerners or Yorkshire Tories, having betrayed the very people they are supposed to represent and fight for.
I am a born and bred northerner, but that was very well put. Many socialists and union leaders betray the very people they represent much worse than most politicians.
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Old February 18th, 2012, 12:20 PM   #97
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Doesn't it enter your head that costs (land, construction, spoil movements, labour costs, etc.) down here are higher, therefore need a larger share of the pie?
Good grief, it's like banging your head against a brick wall.

Do you ever think that perhaps the reason why land, labour costs are so much higher because governments over the years have continued to adopt policies which over-heat the South East whilst leaving the North under-developed?

If governments actually committed themselves to doing the right thing and closing the North-South divide and improved the North's infrastructure to match the South you'd find the South East wouldn't be so expensive.

As long as your kind of mentality continues to rule in Whitehall, don't complain about everything being so expensive.

And I stand by my comments about Yorkshire Tories. Same as Southern Tories in that they're just as callous, greedy and manipulative, but without the charm and refined manners.
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Old February 18th, 2012, 12:21 PM   #98
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I quite like the idea of champagne socialism. Think about it. Rather that than Pol Pot socialism, same clothes and eating rice all day. No fun comrade.

But frankly if you can show me a socialist these days, I would be shocked as they have long gone from the Labour Party brother.

The left exists in the Occupy movement, in various single issue groups and the Green party. Neither of which have much access to power recently. It's more libertarian than big state these days.

Back to the thread, the costs of transport development increases proportionally southwards as you
pass Crewe. This is reflected in how much it costs. To dismiss this is fatuous.

The south east likewise does need the investment as the pressure on the system is immense.

However it would take a deluded man to conclude that parity is applied to infrastructure
investment in the north. Leeds I would argue has badly lost out.

Now I am hopeful about the Hub, simply as Clr Leese is correct. The cost benefit is unprecedented.

Think.

Northern Hub costs around £500-600m and serves around 6 million plus.

Metrolink big bang is costing around £1.2bn for around 1 million (at a stretch) along it's route.

The 2.5km tunnel under the Thames to Woolwich Arsenal cost £180k for no more than half a million on either side of the river.

Unprecedented value. Almost a planners dream. Small cost, big impact. That's why I am hopeful.
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Old February 18th, 2012, 01:16 PM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathan Dawz View Post
Good grief, it's like banging your head against a brick wall.

Do you ever think that perhaps the reason why land, labour costs are so much higher because governments over the years have continued to adopt policies which over-heat the South East whilst leaving the North under-developed?

If governments actually committed themselves to doing the right thing and closing the North-South divide and improved the North's infrastructure to match the South you'd find the South East wouldn't be so expensive.

As long as your kind of mentality continues to rule in Whitehall, don't complain about everything being so expensive.

And I stand by my comments about Yorkshire Tories. Same as Southern Tories in that they're just as callous, greedy and manipulative, but without the charm and refined manners.

This here.

For me it'd be too late to even try and close the North-South divide. The damage has already been done, I want independence. That's the only way to bring the south down seeing as we're the ones subsidizing them.
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Old February 18th, 2012, 01:40 PM   #100
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sorry Volde and the rest of you, please leave 'the south' out of this. It's not a North/South divide its a London/rest of UK divide. Instead of venting anger at 'the south', use 'London' instead. Where I'm from, a town of 30,000+ has the fortune of being on the mainline to London, other than that it only has 2 buses. A poxy circular using one rather shagged minibus and a once-every-half-hour-if-your-lucky service to the next mediocre town run by Worst at extortionate rates. Yes NR in and out of London works well but beyond that you have to drive pretty much everywhere and congestion, even in a small town where my dad lives, can compete with levels around here.
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