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Old February 18th, 2012, 03:04 PM   #101
Gdogg371
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VoldemortBlack View Post
This here.

For me it'd be too late to even try and close the North-South divide. The damage has already been done, I want independence. That's the only way to bring the south down seeing as we're the ones subsidizing them.
i thought that london was one of the only places in the country that makes more tax revenue than it consumes? if that is the case they are funding us. however london gets infrastructure investment because planners know they will see a return on it.

london is the capital city though and does have a lot of things working in it's favour that nowhere else does. perhaps other areas would enjoy similar success if they were given the same opportunities as london is.

just writing off other parts of the country as loss making isnt fair on the people who live there, especially as they are paying taxes themselves...
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Old February 18th, 2012, 06:59 PM   #102
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As others have said, the costs of building stuff in London and in particular land and property CPO ing, are significantly more than in the North and slews the figures. The £ per head in investment is not really an accurate means of comparison.

We should remember that infrastructure is called public investment ie investing public money to get the best rate of social and economic return. In an ideal world where there was more money than projects, anything that could demonstrate a positive benefit/cost ratio would be funded. The real world has more projects than money and therefore they have to be prioritised. Winners and losers.

Greater benefits from investments in London and the South East - but also higher costs too. The opposite is more likely to be true in the North.
Therefore (and one of the reasons I'm hopeful about getting the Northern Hub) that means our projects are less expensive. More bang for buck.
Fingers crossed on this.
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Old February 18th, 2012, 07:14 PM   #103
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And I stand by my comments about Yorkshire Tories. Same as Southern Tories in that they're just as callous, greedy and manipulative, but without the charm and refined manners.
That's not what you said previously - quote - there's nowt worse than a Yorkshire Tory -

wow you really are so blinded by bigotry you can't even remember your pecking order of hatred.

Suggest you come back to the thread when you have something grown up to say.
Whatever you think you know about me, you don't, I have no political agenda, affiliation or favourites. I don't like any of them but that doesn't mean I go round spewing crap about people I don't know and have never met - like you do.
Your agenda is basically formed around what you are against rather than what you would do positively instead.
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Old February 18th, 2012, 07:35 PM   #104
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First of all, I'll point out how pathetically anorak-like it is to try and look for grammatical flaws and continuity errors in someone's joke.

And secondly, there wasn't even an error in the first place you twonk... (I'll highlight in bold in case it catches you out again)

"Same as Southern Tories in that they're just as callous, greedy and manipulative, but without the charm and refined manners."

Now that we've cleared that up, I'll point out that you still haven't found any evidence that Nick Clegg and George Osborne stand up for the North more because they have Northern constituencies.

And you've still yet to counter to astonishing spending differences on infrastructure between North and South.

It might be nice to try and add a few facts to back up your Southernphile argument, rather than stick to the bluster and no-sense tactic you've tried so far.
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Old February 18th, 2012, 07:36 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by iheartthenew View Post
sorry Volde and the rest of you, please leave 'the south' out of this. It's not a North/South divide its a London/rest of UK divide. Instead of venting anger at 'the south', use 'London' instead. Where I'm from, a town of 30,000+ has the fortune of being on the mainline to London, other than that it only has 2 buses. A poxy circular using one rather shagged minibus and a once-every-half-hour-if-your-lucky service to the next mediocre town run by Worst at extortionate rates. Yes NR in and out of London works well but beyond that you have to drive pretty much everywhere and congestion, even in a small town where my dad lives, can compete with levels around here.
More accurately it's a South East vs the rest of the country thing.

The Home Counties are treated just as well as London by the government, don't forget.

Crossrail, Thameslink, the huge amount of suburban electrified rail links, etc massively benefit the whole of the South East, not just London.
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Old February 18th, 2012, 07:57 PM   #106
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More accurately? Bollocks. Do you really believe the myopic tripe you spout? Having most of my family and having spent just over half my life in the 'south east' I beg to differ. Saying the whole south east in general is somehow privileged etc is like saying the whole NW is a desolate hole of misery populated by flat cap wearing whippet breeders.. Beyond the trains (and then only those that run to/near London) public transport is as much of a joke as it is anywhere else outside London.

(and the train to London from Manchester is just as frequent as it is from my home town lol)
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Last edited by iheartthenew; February 18th, 2012 at 08:06 PM.
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Old February 18th, 2012, 08:08 PM   #107
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Are you seriously trying to tell us that the North of England gets given equal treatment when it comes to government policy and investment compared to the South East?

Just because you're a Southerner doesn't mean you need to be completely blinded from the truth.

Let's just take one example. Here are the transport spending per head figures from the IPPR which came out in December:

http://www.ippr.org/press-releases/1...-in-north-east

£2731 per head in London
£792 per head in the South East
•£311 per head in the East Midlands
•£269 per head in the West Midlands
•£201 per head in Yorkshire & Humber
•£134 per head in the North West
•£43 per head in the East
•£19 per head in the South West
•£5 per head in the North East

So London clearly gets massively disproportionate spending on transport. And the South East gets the second-highest level per head.

London gets £2731 per head and the North East gets £5 per head.

Now try and explain to us with a straight face how that's fair.
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Old February 18th, 2012, 08:34 PM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathan Dawz

Just because you're a Southerner doesn't mean you need to be completely blinded from the truth.
Just because I'm a southerner? You know where you can stick your bigoted views like that

I never tried to say that the spending was fair, just trying to point out that there is quite a difference between London and a lot of the south east. That comes from experience, not statistics. Let's ignore things like weighting for the price of land and labour (I mean labour as in the workforce, not the mock-socialist political party) and focus on what the money is probably spent on: feeding the monster that is London.

Yes the SE benefits, but only as a side effect of proximity to London and it's part-dormitory status. It goes on getting people into London. It all goes on NR projects.It's not fair their trains are a lot newer and electrified and we still have shitty pacers, but I refer you back to link roads post about how many passengers one former NSE station has on one day compared to stations in GM. the trains to London from my old home town, despite being new (a mere 20+ years old, I remember the ancient slam door trains they replaced) long and frequent are still packed like sardines day in day out, busier than any train I've experienced out of Vic or Pic.

What about all the hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people who live in the SE that have nothing to do with London? Apart from a shitty bus service what benefit do they get?

The rest of the UK doesn't get it's fair share of the money in my opinion either, but my point is no where that isn't London does, unless it benefits London. On that note plead remind me on your stance on HS2?
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Old February 18th, 2012, 08:55 PM   #109
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There's a major flaw in your argument that you're blinded from seeing.

You describe London as a 'monster' but yet see the South East as hard done by. I hate to break it to you, but London and the South East are one and the same. The very people who sleep at night in the wealthy suburbs of Surrey and Essex and the same people who commute to London and work in the City in the day.

And you complain about trains down South being crowded. Well, that's probably because the government keeps over-heating the South East at the expense of the rest of the country, thus pushing demand up more and more. Demand for housing, demand for land, demand for labour, demand for resources....and it sucks the rest of the UK dry.

I'm glad you've climbed down from your original hysterical claims (particularly when you saw those transport spending figures, which you don't seem to have much comeback to). When you've calmed down a bit more perhaps you'll see that we're right about all the other points too.
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Old February 18th, 2012, 09:35 PM   #110
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London and the south east are NOT the same thing, YOU are too blinded by your anti southern bigotedness to see. I mean what do I know, I only lived there, experienced it! Large (most of) parts of Essex (and even some parts of Surrey LOL) are NOT wealthy and do NOT commute to London. That would be like me saying everyone up north is piss poor. Again its you who is blinded, this time by stereotypes. You generalise as if the the SE is all the same big rich tory heartland. It isn't so stop applying your anti southern anti anything but Labour prejudices across a wide variety of people and places, I mean, I'm sure the good people of Jaywick really benefit from the millions being spent on Crossrail...

I've not climbed down from any 'hysterical' claims, I'm not deluded to think that the amount of money being spent on London V the rest of the UK is fair, I never have, I never said the SE is particularly hard done by either, that's just you twisting things and exaggerating minor bits and pieces. How many times do in have to point out that any extra money spent in the SE is only to benefit London and a majority of the SE gets none or little benefit from it and it's just as shit there as anywhere else..

...Except of course our buses look really good, the First livery looks excellent in platinum and gold leaf, and the heated, diamond studded leather seats they have are really comfy
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Old February 18th, 2012, 09:59 PM   #111
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£5 in newcastle, over £2000 in london. not all of that can be down to higher construction costs and the price of land.
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Old February 18th, 2012, 10:26 PM   #112
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No, of course its not. You could claim that costs, due to the prices of land and wages in London compared to the north, could go up as much as 4x or 5x. Quite where 400x comes from I don't know, maybe an unfair ROI calculation?

(And yes Nathan, I do think its unfair, I always have...)
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Old February 18th, 2012, 11:03 PM   #113
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what happens is london gets a tonne of money thrown at it over a sustained period. attracts almost everything worth having then becomes the only part of the country that produces more tax revenue than it consumes. this then becomes a handy excuse not to invest money elsewhere because there is always a justification for it.

somewhere like sunderland or liverpool doesnt get the same level of investment and as a result becomes dependent on hand outs.
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Old February 18th, 2012, 11:19 PM   #114
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Somewhat shortsighted eh?
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Old February 18th, 2012, 11:20 PM   #115
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Greater London greater than tax revenues includes the apparent £60bn derviated from the City of London, that clearly impacts on the overall figures.

It also accounts in the machinations of Whitehall and Westminster due to the centralisation of the UK power structure.

Add to that the revenues generated by national firms based there, which could arguably be based anywhere with good distance of Whitehall.

Plus you can not forget the increased property and land values the further south you go.

BUT this is not the question that we need to address.

The North and Manchester has an advantage that needs to be seized.

Add a half billion transport improvements to London and you are talking average incremental
Changes.

And that to the same sized population of the M6 corridor of cities and the Northern Hub for the same amount creates large and substantial changes to the network.

I want people not to cast a jealous eye at London, but realize that substantial advantage can be achieved for half the price here. It's an enviable advantage in a recession.

The Northern Hub is a 1/16 of Crossrail.

The arguments are there, all that is needed is the political will and structures.
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Old February 18th, 2012, 11:36 PM   #116
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Well London and the South East are generally considered to be one economic entity.
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Old February 19th, 2012, 12:33 AM   #117
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up until the late 70s britain was dependent on heavy industry which was scattered all over the country. now most of that is gone and britain is dependent on a finance and service sector which is largely based out of london. its no wonder on that basis that london is the only place that produces more tax revenue than it consumes.
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Old February 19th, 2012, 12:29 PM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iheartthenew View Post
London and the south east are NOT the same thing, YOU are too blinded by your anti southern bigotedness to see.
Sorry, but your attempt to try and convince me that London gets all the cream whilst a completely separately South East is just as hard done by as the North doesn't convince me remotely.

I think you need to look at a map. Where as the North, the South West and the Midlands have large urban areas in their own right, the vast bulk of the 'South East' and 'East' regions are basically suburbs of London.

They're the same economic entity, getting the same privileges and attention from Whitehall, with the same people living in the Home Counties working in London.
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Old February 19th, 2012, 01:06 PM   #119
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Sorry, but your attempt to try and convince me that London gets all the cream whilst a completely separately South East is just as hard done by as the North doesn't convince me remotely.
Bollocks. Thats not what I said or implied. I did write something long winded here but you're really not worth it. I see no point in repeating myself trying to convince the likes of you.

Quote:
I think you need to look at a map. Where as the North, the South West and the Midlands have large urban areas in their own right, the vast bulk of the 'South East' and 'East' regions are basically suburbs of London.

They're the same economic entity, getting the same privileges and attention from Whitehall, with the same people living in the Home Counties working in London.
Again, a fair dose of bollocks, I don't need to look at a map, you do. I lived there for 20+ years.... Large parts of the SE are certainly not suburbs of London. There is a large commuter belt maybe but to write-off/define most of the whole region as a suburb of London is absurd and many (most) people gain no benefit from London or the rail connections with it.

Anyway, lets end this stupid arguement now, we're ruining the thread for everyone else. Sorry to everyone else - back to topic....

Last edited by iheartthenew; February 19th, 2012 at 02:02 PM.
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Old February 19th, 2012, 03:30 PM   #120
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What has the fact that you lived there got anything to do with it?

Do you think that gives you the right to ignore facts? Perhaps if you hadn't have lived there you'd be able to look at this with a more impartial view.

For decades now, the government has directed its spending and attention towards serving London and the South East at the expense of the rest of the country.

The fact that the government is umming and erring over paying the tiny cost for the Northern Hub when they've forked out billions for Crossrail, Thameslink, the Olympics, the massive redevelopments of St. Pancras, Kings Cross, Victoria, London Bridge etc. tells us everything we need to know.
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