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Greater Manchester Transport Projects Transport Matters For Greater Manchester and Surrounding Areas



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Old February 19th, 2012, 03:44 PM   #121
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Originally Posted by Nathan Dawz View Post
What has the fact that you lived there got anything to do with it?

Do you think that gives you the right to ignore facts? Perhaps if you hadn't have lived there you'd be able to look at this with a more impartial view.

For decades now, the government has directed its spending and attention towards serving London and the South East at the expense of the rest of the country.

The fact that the government is umming and erring over paying the tiny cost for the Northern Hub when they've forked out billions for Crossrail, Thameslink, the Olympics, the massive redevelopments of St. Pancras, Kings Cross, Victoria, London Bridge etc. tells us everything we need to know.
It gives him better judgement than yourself, having experienced both. I used to be a anti-Southerner, hating Thatcherism, etc., until I realised I wasn't going to get very far in life (or career).

Do you have the right to disrespect other peoples' opinions just because they don't match your own?

All those schemes were deferred for decades because the Lawson boom became a bust and privatisation interrupted the schemes which BR were ready to implement. Both IC and NSE were profitable, and cross-subsidy would have meant investment in the North would have been enabled sooner. As they deferred longer and longer, they became more and more expensive.

During the 90s Manchester alone got Metrolink Phase 1, rebuilds of Piccadilly and part of Victoria, construction of the Manchester Airport Rail Link, and new Class 323 rolling stock. Whilst London got Heathrow Express, which was paid for by BAA.

I still believe some elements of the Hub could be achieved through smarter working (portion working, clean sheet timetabling, revised stopping patterns), rather than making the mistake of building expensive infrastucture to serve more frequent shorter trains. This leads to increased debt and higher fares, potentially detracting custom you are trying to achieve.

Network Rail is making themselves the same mistake as Railtrack. Seeing themselves as an infrastructure company, as RT did themselves a property developer. Part of the problem is the structure of the industry. BR had all its own in house engineers, lawyers, technicans, etc., so the costs were far lower.
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Old February 19th, 2012, 07:43 PM   #122
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It gives him better judgement than yourself, having experienced both.
So what you're basically saying is that only someone from the South of England is allowed to comment on the huge spending disparities between North and South?!

What horse shit.

I spend more time in London than Manchester these days - so presumably this gives me superior judgement over either of you?

Be honest, why did you bother posting that comment? Was it because you had something valid to say? Or was it because you already support one view (and given your home is Milton Keynes, I think we can guess which one) and you just wanted to stir up some trouble by providing moral support for someone's indefensible position?

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I used to be a anti-Southerner, hating Thatcherism, etc., until I realised I wasn't going to get very far in life (or career).
If your career's lagging I'd suggest it's unlikely to be because of your political views.

Funnily enough, my career's never been affected by it. In professional white-collar jobs, it generally helps to have facts on your side, rather than bias and hysteria!
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Old February 19th, 2012, 08:13 PM   #123
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You don't have facts, you have one statistic. A rather broad simple one at that. And one after 13 years of a Labour government remained unchanged. Please show me the facts that this spending, the big projects that are spread across the SE and have little to do with London. Or even the ones that go much beyond the M25 that are included in the SE figure. And please spare us the bullying attitude and the illiberal politicking. I'm open to the facts but you've not produced any that counter my experience.
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Old February 19th, 2012, 08:28 PM   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathan Dawz View Post
So what you're basically saying is that only someone from the South of England is allowed to comment on the huge spending disparities between North and South?!

What horse shit.

I spend more time in London than Manchester these days - so presumably this gives me superior judgement over either of you?

Be honest, why did you bother posting that comment? Was it because you had something valid to say? Or was it because you already support one view (and given your home is Milton Keynes, I think we can guess which one) and you just wanted to stir up some trouble by providing moral support for someone's indefensible position?



If your career's lagging I'd suggest it's unlikely to be because of your political views.

Funnily enough, my career's never been affected by it. In professional white-collar jobs, it generally helps to have facts on your side, rather than bias and hysteria!
Nathan, we'll agree to disagree, like we always do....

iheart is entitled just as much as a Northerner, as I am as a Mancunian in the South East. Never make assumptions about your own 'superior' judgement either.

I made a personal choice to move to Milton Keynes, as a few of my family did in the mid 1990s, as the last bits of industry was being destroyed in East Manchester. For them it was move or unemployment or lower paid/skilled.

Trade union education is virtually non-existant, almost destroyed in Manchester. I'd happily live in Greater Manchester if it offered the air quality, personal safety and 'quality of life' on the same scale. If I hadn't moved to Milton Keynes, I'd have gone to the Netherlands instead.

My career hasn't lagged, but I have seen countless (Northern) contempories suffer and be left behind, because of their blinkered socialist/trade union/deserving of everything but unwilling to work for it attitude.

As for being a theorist know-it-all, that counts for nothing in the practical world of work. I chortle at graduates who come into my industry who have the inability to do the simplest of tasks or concepts, when I left school with no qualifications whatsoever.
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Old February 19th, 2012, 08:46 PM   #125
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All those schemes were deferred for decades because the Lawson boom became a bust and privatisation interrupted the schemes which BR were ready to implement.
sorry to butt into this argument, but out of interest which schemes are you referring to?
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Old February 19th, 2012, 08:48 PM   #126
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You don't have facts, you have one statistic.
What, you mean the statistic that shows that London and the South East receives more government spending on transport than any other area? Which is precisely what we were arguing about in the first place?!

Well since that single fact alone backs up my argument and defeats yours, I'll think I'll stick with that!

Now, would you be so kind as to provide me with your fact showing the South East 'loses out' to London and receives just as rough a time from the government as the North does?

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Please show me the facts that this spending, the big projects that are spread across the SE and have little to do with London.
This is ridiculous - you can't even remember your own argument anymore! You're the one arguing that London and the South East are separate entities, not me.

I've said very clearly that London and the South East are the same economic entity (the Home Counties are London's suburbs and little more).

And massive projects like Crossrail and Thameslink, which go deep into the Home Counties, prove my point. Also, take a look at a map of rail electrification in the UK. The vast majority of the lines in the South East are electrified. And then compare this to the North where even links between major cities still use clapped-out diesel trains.

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I'm open to the facts but you've not produced any that counter my experience.
There's nothing open about your mind, young lad! It'd be easier to explain this to a chimp.

So far you've seriously tried to argue two ridiculous and unsubstantiated points:

1) That the South East is a completely separare entity from London, and

2) The South East is 'hard done by' and loses out to London just as much as the North does.

But please carry on! You're making such a mockery of yourself I think you'll eventually embarrass yourself into submission!
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Old February 19th, 2012, 08:52 PM   #127
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My career hasn't lagged, but I have seen countless (Northern) contempories suffer and be left behind, because of their blinkered socialist/trade union/deserving of everything but unwilling to work for it attitude.
Which part of the North is this? Royston Vasey?!

I can't name a single area of the North which is a socialist hotbed, or which has a trade union majority. Can you?

The North of England is overwhelmingly progressive and anti-neo-liberal compared to the South East and that's something we should be proud of.

The political attitudes of Scotland and the North are proving to be somewhat more sustainable than the casino-capitalism practiced in the City and supported by Whitehall.
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Old February 19th, 2012, 09:19 PM   #128
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Which part of the North is this? Royston Vasey?!

I can't name a single area of the North which is a socialist hotbed, or which has a trade union majority. Can you?

The North of England is overwhelmingly progressive and anti-neo-liberal compared to the South East and that's something we should be proud of.

The political attitudes of Scotland and the North are proving to be somewhat more sustainable than the casino-capitalism practiced in the City and supported by Whitehall.
Maybe because most people finally woke up? Perhaps they all became white-collar professionals?

Funnily enough, Hadfield (Royston Vasey) has become a favoured dumping ground (of Manchester CC and other agencies) for work-shy undesirables, the kind that used to live in Gorton and Openshaw, which then pisses off those who worked hard to get up there earlier.

Putting the likes of the Scottish Government and the useless fodder of Northern England 'representatives' is like chalk and cheese. One delivers, the other just makes lots of unheard noises.
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Old February 19th, 2012, 10:01 PM   #129
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We still have the welfare state, the NHS and the equality laws. I must have missed the part when people 'woke up' from this.

And re-nationalisation of the railways and the utilities is more popular than the current set-up (not necessarily something I advocate, but worth pointing out).

You're a bit bitter about your homeland, but just because you didn't succeed in the North doesn't mean the North itself is not a success.

Remember it was the North of England which started the global Industrial Revolution and gave birth to most of the great social movements of the age (like the Chartists, the Suffragettes, the trade unions...).

And today, Manchester is going from strength to strength. So I don't quite understand your hostility towards the North - you're beginning to sound a bit chippy!

Remember the words of some other famous Northerners...."Don't look back in anger...from Milton Keynes".
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Old February 19th, 2012, 10:33 PM   #130
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I think its you who has lost the plot with this arguement. The only examples of fantastic spending in the SE you can think of are two lines through the centre of London... Again rather than answers and any real facts you've just twisted other peoples words, misrepresented what we've said and tried to be a bully. A self righteous bigoted ignorant illiberal myopic bully.

Again I'll reiterate that London and the SE are not entirely one and the same. Any extra spending in the SE goes on heavy rail which ultimately serves London (as your examples prove and one of which barely pokes itself out beyond the M25!!!) as for the rest of the SE which isn't London (quite a bit of it actually) isn't very good. That extra spending per head doesn't go anywhere else. So back to my 1st point I ever made, London gets the cream at the expense of the rest of the UK, unless you really think that crossrail would exist if London wasn't there and would be built to ferry people from the fringes of Essex to Berks.

Berk? Yes that's what you are.
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Old February 19th, 2012, 11:04 PM   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathan Dawz View Post
We still have the welfare state, the NHS and the equality laws. I must have missed the part when people 'woke up' from this.

And re-nationalisation of the railways and the utilities is more popular than the current set-up (not necessarily something I advocate, but worth pointing out).

You're a bit bitter about your homeland, but just because you didn't succeed in the North doesn't mean the North itself is not a success.

Remember it was the North of England which started the global Industrial Revolution and gave birth to most of the great social movements of the age (like the Chartists, the Suffragettes, the trade unions...).

And today, Manchester is going from strength to strength. So I don't quite understand your hostility towards the North - you're beginning to sound a bit chippy!

Remember the words of some other famous Northerners...."Don't look back in anger...from Milton Keynes".
I am well aware of civic, social and trade union history in Manchester, thank you. In fact, I shamed Manchester City Council in cleaning up and restoring the Joseph Brotherton statue/garden opposite the swanky Spinningfields.

I have no beef with the NHS, the welfare state or equality, I'd gladly pay more tax, or the same if the waste was eradicated.

Whilst I don't agree with rail privatisation, I don't want renationalisation either. I'd prefer a colleague-owned railway, John Lewis-style, free from state interference. Building the railway for the passenger, not government or financial whim.

I make sure I am self-sufficient by having solar heating and hot water. If I buy energy, I am with a not-for-profit supplier. My phone/internet/food are purchased through various co-operatives.

Your assumption that I wasn't a success in the North is incorrect. In fact, it is where I rose through the ranks.

As for your attempt at humour, I'd like to point out both the Gallagher brothers happen to live in the South East, don't they?
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Old February 19th, 2012, 11:22 PM   #132
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sorry to butt into this argument, but out of interest which schemes are you referring to?
IC250, which would have seen 140mph Class 93 and Mk5 stock for the WCML. None of that fancy foreign signalling shit that never worked, just flashing greens. At the time we tested the then newish Class 91 and Mk4 (IC225). Probably would have been built, and in service before 1997, when Virgin Trains took over and deliberately ran the service down further, to make them look better than ICWC when the Pendolinos got introduced.

Further Class 323 procurement for the Blackpool - Manchester, Airedale and Wharfedale electrifcation schemes. Hunslet TPL went bust because of it.

Networker continued orders, keeping the factory at York going. Instead years of waiting for Electrostars (Derby-built) and Desiros (Krefeld-built).

CTRL on a north/south axis, built underneath a Kings Cross International, allowing through NoL services to the GWML, WCML and ECML routes.

Thameslink 2000.

Crossrail, which was originally from Aylesbury.

This was all under a Conservative Government, ready to go! However, the aviation industry consultants and Treasury got their way instead.
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Old February 19th, 2012, 11:50 PM   #133
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London is the political, financial and cultural capital of the country. Due to the proximity of this colossus, the towns and cities of the 'South East' are already at an advantage. If you look at any credible stat, the fact that there is a huge North South divide can't be disputed and portraying Northerners as 'lazy' is one of the most stupid, immature and insulting reasons I've ever heard.

If we can treat this North/South divide as a fact something substantial needs to be done about it. The North East assembly idea didn't nearly go as far enough and the referendum took place at a time when this country was still 'booming'. If regions are given real powers, the UK federalism idea would have a lot more mileage these days. It might even save the union?

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Old February 19th, 2012, 11:52 PM   #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by link_road_17/7 View Post
IC250, which would have seen 140mph Class 93 and Mk5 stock for the WCML. None of that fancy foreign signalling shit that never worked, just flashing greens. At the time we tested the then newish Class 91 and Mk4 (IC225). Probably would have been built, and in service before 1997, when Virgin Trains took over and deliberately ran the service down further, to make them look better than ICWC when the Pendolinos got introduced.

Further Class 323 procurement for the Blackpool - Manchester, Airedale and Wharfedale electrifcation schemes. Hunslet TPL went bust because of it.

Networker continued orders, keeping the factory at York going. Instead years of waiting for Electrostars (Derby-built) and Desiros (Krefeld-built).

CTRL on a north/south axis, built underneath a Kings Cross International, allowing through NoL services to the GWML, WCML and ECML routes.

Thameslink 2000.

Crossrail, which was originally from Aylesbury.

This was all under a Conservative Government, ready to go! However, the aviation industry consultants and Treasury got their way instead.
The timing of BR's privatisation was perhaps the biggest mistake in recent railway history. Just as things were finally getting sorted, the Treasury tore the whole thing apart.

It was inevitable that British Rail would be privatised. Had it not been under John Major, I suspect we'd be seeing it happen now. Nationalised industry attracts a kind of entropy in neoliberal societies; it cannot last forever, with successive governments plotting its demise.

But had BR just one more decade I suspect it would be remember much more fondly than it is today. Just as Sectorisation and Organising for Quality started to yield results, just as NSE and IC came into profit, just as Total Route Modernisation (SE) was finishing, it was all blown up into a hundred competing fragments.

It's not that I don't believe a private railway can work, but it is maddening that BR was struck down just as it was finally discovering the magic formula for a profitable railway. How depressingly ironic was that old motto of theirs - "we're getting there". Almost, but not quite.
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Old February 20th, 2012, 12:19 AM   #135
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I think its you who has lost the plot with this arguement. The only examples of fantastic spending in the SE you can think of are two lines through the centre of London... Again rather than answers and any real facts you've just twisted other peoples words, misrepresented what we've said and tried to be a bully. A self righteous bigoted ignorant illiberal myopic bully.

Again I'll reiterate that London and the SE are not entirely one and the same. Any extra spending in the SE goes on heavy rail which ultimately serves London (as your examples prove and one of which barely pokes itself out beyond the M25!!!) as for the rest of the SE which isn't London (quite a bit of it actually) isn't very good. That extra spending per head doesn't go anywhere else. So back to my 1st point I ever made, London gets the cream at the expense of the rest of the UK, unless you really think that crossrail would exist if London wasn't there and would be built to ferry people from the fringes of Essex to Berks.

Berk? Yes that's what you are.
Seriously, how old are you, about five?

There has been a whole host of figures and facts on so many threads over the years showing how the North gets short-changed compared to the South East. And this has gone on for many, many years.

If the weight of evidence doesn't convince you then that's your problem, not ours. But to be honest, a lot of the Southerners in Whitehall have the same problem as you.

They give the North the crumbs off the table and expect us to be grateful.
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Old February 20th, 2012, 02:50 AM   #136
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Oh dear. And again your prejudices come to the fore and you spout bile, coz 'I'm a southerner'. Again you forget what we're arguing over and try and paint me as the villain. How old are you? A miserable vindictive and confused 95?

No-one here is disputing the years of grossly unfair underfunding, by successive governments, that the north of England has had to endure. But as you struggle to understand, those Whitehall mandarins and politicians you detest so much who don't just struggle to see beyond the Watford gap, they actually struggle to see much beyond the M25.

Now for the umpteenth time, NOT all of the SE is like London, or part of London. Much of it is fields, it has a coastline and other non city like shit. Many parts of the SE are as far from London as the Lake District is from Manchester. Go much further than the M25 and anywhere that isn't lucky enough to be on a railway line to London (built by the Victorians) and mostly all you'll find is a pathetic bus service.

I don't know what else to say but seeing as you're so often in London, next time I'm down you can come on a little trip and enjoy the crush loading on the train out of London and visit my home town and tell us all how lucky we are to have that half hourly bus service by First
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Old February 20th, 2012, 09:36 AM   #137
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IoD backs "essential" Northern Hub scheme

Quote:
Business leaders in the North West have added their weight to the Northern Hub campaign, calling for the government to make a firm commitment to the scheme.

The comments from Tony Attard, regional chair for the Institute of Directors in the North West, come after Liverpool Riverside MP Louise Ellman told Insider fears were growing that the government would try and "reduce the scope" of the scheme.

“The Northern Hub is a fantastic scheme that will transform rail travel across the region, with more trains and faster journeys bringing some of England’s key cities closer together," said Attard. "It’s a vital part of rebalancing the economy away from London and supporting business development in the north.

"Fully funding the Northern Hub is essential, and we want to see that commitment from the government as soon as possible. Businesses need to be able to plan ahead with confidence."

If approved and fully funded, the Northern Hub scheme - backed by Insider - will reduce journey times between a number of England’s key cities and allow for 700 more trains a day.
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Old February 20th, 2012, 12:25 PM   #138
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Thank you Mark for bringing the thread back on task.

Keep saying this word.

Unprecedented

That's what the Northern Hub is. The foundation.
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Old February 20th, 2012, 03:03 PM   #139
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700 extra trains a day, which won't be able to run because the money has been spent on the infrastructure, without securing funding for the rolling stock meant to run on it.

Seems familiar to another white elephant, the M67 motorway, built for 75,000 vpd, but seeing *far* fewer.
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Old February 20th, 2012, 03:41 PM   #140
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700 extra trains a day, which won't be able to run because the money has been spent on the infrastructure, without securing funding for the rolling stock meant to run on it.

Seems familiar to another white elephant, the M67 motorway, built for 75,000 vpd, but seeing *far* fewer.
Some traffic figures from the highways agency from one of those nutty save the planet organisations. Predicted for 2010 is around 30,000. You'd think most citys within close range of each other would have good links, Manchester has fast direct links to Liverpool/Leeds but not Sheffield. The rail links aren't much better.

http://www.saveswallowswood.org.uk/l...implified1.pdf
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