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Old July 27th, 2012, 08:57 PM   #21
gincan
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Originally Posted by foxmulder View Post
Infrastructure goes to China. (7000m turn radius, elevated balastless tracks, those stations... delicious)

Trains.. I cannot decide..
But China hasn't really invented anything new, they have simlpy used existing technology. 7 km curve radius is industrial standard on any rail line built for speeds above 300 km/h and has been used on new rail lines i Europe and Japan since the 1990s.

Ballstless track has been used since the 1960s so nothing new, as for HSR Taipei-Kaohsiung opened in 2004.

Large trains stations, well you can find large trains stations in Germany that are a 100 years old. For example this one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leipzig_Central_Station
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Old July 27th, 2012, 09:30 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by gincan View Post
But China hasn't really invented anything new, they have simlpy used existing technology. 7 km curve radius is industrial standard on any rail line built for speeds above 300 km/h and has been used on new rail lines i Europe and Japan since the 1990s.

Ballstless track has been used since the 1960s so nothing new, as for HSR Taipei-Kaohsiung opened in 2004.

Large trains stations, well you can find large trains stations in Germany that are a 100 years old. For example this one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leipzig_Central_Station
That's a bit like saying that New York is not the first example of great vertical metropolis because its architectural model was already invented by the city of Bologna in the 14th century.
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Old July 27th, 2012, 10:26 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by gincan View Post
But China hasn't really invented anything new, they have simlpy used existing technology. 7 km curve radius is industrial standard on any rail line built for speeds above 300 km/h and has been used on new rail lines i Europe and Japan since the 1990s.

Ballstless track has been used since the 1960s so nothing new, as for HSR Taipei-Kaohsiung opened in 2004.

Large trains stations, well you can find large trains stations in Germany that are a 100 years old. For example this one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leipzig_Central_Station

Can you write what other lines have 7000m turn radius?

Balastless track is not new but China is the country using it in all of its network.

Yes, you find large stations in other places but they are only like 1 per country and not brand new

Also, elevated tracks adds quite a bit value, too.

You are right, China imported a lot of technology but is there anything wrong with that? Siemens and Kawasaki earned a lot of moneyzzz from China. It doesn't change the situation on ground, right?

By the way, I decided to choose Japan for trains but this may change soon if crh500 breaks the record and reaches operational usage.

Last edited by foxmulder; July 27th, 2012 at 10:32 PM.
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Old July 27th, 2012, 11:23 PM   #24
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You are right, China imported a lot of technology but is there anything wrong with that? Siemens and Kawasaki earned a lot of moneyzzz from China. It doesn't change the situation on ground, right?
Well no, there's nothing wrong with that. But seeing as we're talking about who the "leader" is in terms of countries, it won't be China, as their sole domestically-produced train so far was the China Star, and they ceased developing that 7 years ago without any commercial derivative.

Maybe Chinese infrastructure is state of the art, but its trains are all imported. I dont think this detracts from the accomplishment as a whole, but I do think it takes China out of the running as a world leader at this point in time. Once it starts domestically developing trains like Germany, France, Japan, and South Korea do, I think it will have to considered a world leader in the industry, mostly because the potential scale of future R&D investments in the industry by China hugely exceed those of the other countries.
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Old July 27th, 2012, 11:58 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by aquaticko View Post
Well no, there's nothing wrong with that. But seeing as we're talking about who the "leader" is in terms of countries, it won't be China, as their sole domestically-produced train so far was the China Star, and they ceased developing that 7 years ago without any commercial derivative.

Maybe Chinese infrastructure is state of the art, but its trains are all imported. I dont think this detracts from the accomplishment as a whole, but I do think it takes China out of the running as a world leader at this point in time. Once it starts domestically developing trains like Germany, France, Japan, and South Korea do, I think it will have to considered a world leader in the industry, mostly because the potential scale of future R&D investments in the industry by China hugely exceed those of the other countries.
What about operational CRH380A and under development CRH500?

Since you list South Korea, I think you have to list China, too.

Also, as I wrote I see China as the leader for the high speed rail infrastructure not in the trains department which can change rather quickly, though.
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Old July 28th, 2012, 01:55 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by aquaticko View Post
Well no, there's nothing wrong with that. But seeing as we're talking about who the "leader" is in terms of countries, it won't be China, as their sole domestically-produced train so far was the China Star, and they ceased developing that 7 years ago without any commercial derivative.

Maybe Chinese infrastructure is state of the art, but its trains are all imported. I dont think this detracts from the accomplishment as a whole, but I do think it takes China out of the running as a world leader at this point in time. Once it starts domestically developing trains like Germany, France, Japan, and South Korea do, I think it will have to considered a world leader in the industry, mostly because the potential scale of future R&D investments in the industry by China hugely exceed those of the other countries.
China has already designed several trainsets that, while relying on a design base created by other countries, have made enough improvements and adjustments to claim them as their own. Not just the CRH500 and the 380A. What about the 380B and the 380D?
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Old July 28th, 2012, 03:06 AM   #27
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What about operational CRH380A and under development CRH500?

Since you list South Korea, I think you have to list China, too.

Also, as I wrote I see China as the leader for the high speed rail infrastructure not in the trains department which can change rather quickly, though.
The CRH 380A is little more than a reskinned Shinkansen with souped-up Velaro motors underneath. (Ignore the pretty nose and concentrate on the train design: The pantograph and its farings, the doors, the roof construction, the windows, all bear the hallmarks of the original E2 derived CRH)

Why? Because the Shinkansen has the lightest axle load of all high speed trainsets. If you couple that with the strongest HEMU motors (from the Velaro) you're bound to have a set that's a record-breaker. Which is exactly what the 380A is.

Although the CRH 500 may be able to be considered as "Chinese designed" it still bears the hallmarks of previous E2 designs. Also, I doubt we'll ever see it running at full speed in commercial service, unless CRH is happy to make gigantic losses with every run.

Quote:
China has already designed several trainsets that, while relying on a design base created by other countries, have made enough improvements and adjustments to claim them as their own. Not just the CRH500 and the 380A. What about the 380B and the 380D?
Actually, I would say that the 380A and 500 have a far better chance of being considered "Chinese" than the 380B an 380D.

About the 380B:
>This order for a total of 1600 railway cars is greater than the total production of all Velaro and ICE trains that have ever been manufactured in the past. It is planned that the trains will be produced by CNR subsidiaries, Tangshan Railway Vehicles and Changchun Railway Vehicles, using technology from the previous technology transfer agreement.

So it's basically still a Velaro.

And the 380D was designed entirely by Bombardier, and build in the Bombardier Sifang plant. There was very little Chinese input in either of the designs.

But in the end, no one can truly know what's what, because MOR will never reveal the exact designs of the trains and what came from who.
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Last edited by Sopomon; July 28th, 2012 at 03:18 AM.
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Old July 28th, 2012, 03:46 AM   #28
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where is the poll???
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Old July 28th, 2012, 05:57 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by foxmulder View Post
Since you list South Korea, I think you have to list China, too.
The KTX-I is based on the TGV Reseau, but the KTX-II is derived from the domestically produced HSR-350x project, and the KTX-III (or, currently, the HEMU-430x) is also an entirely domestically-produced experiment that should begin production within the next 2-3 years.
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Old July 28th, 2012, 07:28 AM   #30
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The KTX-I is based on the TGV Reseau, but the KTX-II is derived from the domestically produced HSR-350x project, and the KTX-III (or, currently, the HEMU-430x) is also an entirely domestically-produced experiment that should begin production within the next 2-3 years.
I find CRH500 as Chinese as HEMU-430x is Korean.
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Old July 28th, 2012, 12:10 PM   #31
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Many stations are overbuilt at the moment, because they were built with a network the size of Europe in mind. As of now only a few disconnected segments is operational, so once the network is complete, even these massive stations will be crowded.
I'm not talking about them being massive. That they build them for the future is great.
However, when I see these waiting rooms with rows and rows and rows of seats I wonder. Passengers should not have to spend more than 10 minutes at a station. If you really need that much seating for waiting passengers something's off...


This you don't see in European stations. Even the ones that see huge amounts of passengers...
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Old July 28th, 2012, 01:51 PM   #32
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I'm not talking about them being massive. That they build them for the future is great.
However, when I see these waiting rooms with rows and rows and rows of seats I wonder. Passengers should not have to spend more than 10 minutes at a station. If you really need that much seating for waiting passengers something's off...


This you don't see in European stations. Even the ones that see huge amounts of passengers...
I think that has to do with Chinese train travelling culture.

When I was there, we would just show up 10 minutes before our train was supposed to leave, and at that time you couldn't even get on the platform yet (basically not until the train had arrived at the platform, or slightly before that). However, the other people also waiting for our train seemed like they had been there for quite a while.

Perhaps people really don't want to miss their train, so they arrive like an hour early. Or people with standing tickets want a good seat... I dunno.
Anyway, the end result is you need a lot of space to keep all those people waiting for their train so early. In my opinion, 70% of people wouldn't need to get there so early, in which case the waiting areas wouldn't need to be so big.
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Old July 28th, 2012, 03:36 PM   #33
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I find CRH500 as Chinese as HEMU-430x is Korean.
It is, but it and the China Star are as far as any Chinese company has come to a production train--and of course, both are experimental. When the production derivative arrives, then China will have its first domestically-produced train.

I agree with you; technological development as regards trains can move quickly.
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Old July 28th, 2012, 09:09 PM   #34
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Those stations are NOT built "for the future", and those waiting areas are "big" because they need to, maybe some forumers haven't checked out any photos of the Chinese new year yet.
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Old July 28th, 2012, 10:20 PM   #35
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Those stations are NOT built "for the future", and those waiting areas are "big" because they need to, maybe some forumers haven't checked out any photos of the Chinese new year yet.
So maybe the Chinese railways need to figure out how to deal more efficiently with the Chinese New Year then...
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Old July 28th, 2012, 10:36 PM   #36
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Can you write what other lines have 7000m turn radius?
There are to many to list. You find them in Spain, France, Korea, Italy and Japan.
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Old July 28th, 2012, 11:36 PM   #37
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Can you write what other lines have 7000m turn radius?
Beijing-Shanghai HSR and the other railways designed with an operating speed 380km/h are the only lines in the world that have a maximum radius of 10,000m.
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Old July 29th, 2012, 05:40 AM   #38
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There are to many to list. You find them in Spain, France, Korea, Italy and Japan.
Misinformation.

Japan: 4000m
Germany: 3200m
Italy: 5500m
France: 5000m
Spain: 4000m

And these numbers are only for very few and new lines not the whole network. Moreover, the lines have "exceptions" (smaller curve radius for specific rough regions) where speed needs to be lowered.

This is why the average speed of the trains running on these lines cannot reach the maximum speed they can clock all the time.

On 350km/h standard lines in China, avarege speed was almost same as the top speed which proves the lines on Chinese network let trains run with top speed continuesly. Before cancellation, non-stop trains were covering 920km distance less than 3 hours. Now, with 300km/h speed limit and one stop, they cover it in around three and half hour. If you exclude accelerations and breaking for the stops, they run at max speed all the time.

And we are talking an entire huge network in Chinese case, not a couple lines on a network.

Still, if you have a source, please share with us. I would be very happy to read.
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Old July 29th, 2012, 08:44 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by foxmulder View Post
Misinformation.

Japan: 4000m
Germany: 3200m
Italy: 5500m
France: 5000m
Spain: 4000m

And these numbers are only for very few and new lines not the whole network. Moreover, the lines have "exceptions" (smaller curve radius for specific rough regions) where speed needs to be lowered.

This is why the average speed of the trains running on these lines cannot reach the maximum speed they can clock all the time.

On 350km/h standard lines in China, avarege speed was almost same as the top speed which proves the lines on Chinese network let trains run with top speed continuesly. Before cancellation, non-stop trains were covering 920km distance less than 3 hours. Now, with 300km/h speed limit and one stop, they cover it in around three and half hour. If you exclude accelerations and breaking for the stops, they run at max speed all the time.

And we are talking an entire huge network in Chinese case, not a couple lines on a network.

Still, if you have a source, please share with us. I would be very happy to read.
I think his original post was trying to say that it doesn't take especially advanced know-how to make the wider radius turns. It just requires a few changes when planning the route. He was probably bluffing when calling out the other lines.
However the question begging to be asked, is this even necessary?
The TGV ran at 574 km/h on a line which, according to your figures, has turn radii of only 5000 m. Yes, it may have had a little more lateral g-forces than normal, but with the height of the duplex cars, I can hardly believe they'd allow extreme lateral g's as the train would simply tip over! And even then, I highly doubt that wheel on rail technology will ever be used much above 400km/h, as it simply becomes prohibitively expensive past that point.
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Old July 29th, 2012, 09:47 AM   #40
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So maybe the Chinese railways need to figure out how to deal more efficiently with the Chinese New Year then...
That's the billion yuan question, MOR has been trying to figure it out for more than 20 years now. And the solution is simple, bigger station, more platforms, more trains.

Back to topic, CAHSR really revolutionized HSR by showing the world how painful the process can be.
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