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Old July 29th, 2012, 03:10 PM   #41
gincan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foxmulder View Post
Misinformation.

Japan: 4000m
Germany: 3200m
Italy: 5500m
France: 5000m
Spain: 4000m
You talk without having any knowledge, all lines built for speeds in excess of 300km/h have 7 km curve radius. This is as I stated industrial standard, of cause exeption exists where geography don't allow it such as urban areas.
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Old July 29th, 2012, 07:04 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gincan View Post
You talk without having any knowledge, all lines built for speeds in excess of 300km/h have 7 km curve radius. This is as I stated industrial standard, of cause exeption exists where geography don't allow it such as urban areas.
Why are you trying to misinform people?

You are absolutely wrong.

None of the lines outside China let's trains go at maximum speed all time and this is because they do not have required minimum curve radius.
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Old July 29th, 2012, 07:13 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Sopomon View Post
I think his original post was trying to say that it doesn't take especially advanced know-how to make the wider radius turns. It just requires a few changes when planning the route. He was probably bluffing when calling out the other lines.
However the question begging to be asked, is this even necessary?
The TGV ran at 574 km/h on a line which, according to your figures, has turn radii of only 5000 m. Yes, it may have had a little more lateral g-forces than normal, but with the height of the duplex cars, I can hardly believe they'd allow extreme lateral g's as the train would simply tip over! And even then, I highly doubt that wheel on rail technology will ever be used much above 400km/h, as it simply becomes prohibitively expensive past that point.
No, the record probably was broken on a section where it was straight

Also, leading in something requires will and determination, too. Do you think anyone else apart from China will build a network with this standard and scale?

If anyone will go above current 320km/h in operation, that will be China by looking at the projects. That means leading.

If you want to reach average speed of 300km/h or more 7000m is required.
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Old July 29th, 2012, 11:57 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by foxmulder View Post
If anyone will go above current 320km/h in operation, that will be China by looking at the projects. That means leading.
I think Japan with their maglev
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Old July 30th, 2012, 01:45 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by foxmulder View Post
Why are you trying to misinform people?

You are absolutely wrong.

None of the lines outside China let's trains go at maximum speed all time and this is because they do not have required minimum curve radius.
You argue like a child, perhaps you are?

You obviously don't understand what you are talking about so I suggest we end this pointless arguing.
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Old July 30th, 2012, 06:06 AM   #46
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You cannot see a speed profile like this in any other part of the world with this speed.



More than 900km and all of it at top speed. (Dips are stops)

You are lying.
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Old July 30th, 2012, 09:08 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by foxmulder View Post
You cannot see a speed profile like this in any other part of the world with this speed.



More than 900km and all of it at top speed. (Dips are stops)

You are lying.
Which service is that?

The Brussels - Marseille TGV service probably would come close. I don't have a detailed speed profile however.
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Old July 30th, 2012, 09:09 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by foxmulder View Post
If you want to reach average speed of 300km/h or more 7000m is required.
What is also needed is a disregard for economics and efficiency. I suppose these things aren't in short supply in China either...
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Old July 30th, 2012, 09:21 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by K_ View Post
Which service is that?

The Brussels - Marseille TGV service probably would come close. I don't have a detailed speed profile however.
I recorded this. See the third link in my signature.
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Old July 30th, 2012, 10:39 AM   #50
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What is also needed is a disregard for economics and efficiency. I suppose these things aren't in short supply in China either...
bold things seem to have that in common

and yet, most of the time, they succeed in the end

i wonder how many naysayers were complaining about the 'disregard for economics and efficiency' when hitler/eisenhower had hilltops and forests chopped down to make way for slightly higher radii on autobahns/interstates

i know there are quite a few today...
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Old July 30th, 2012, 10:48 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by gincan View Post
You talk without having any knowledge, all lines built for speeds in excess of 300km/h have 7 km curve radius. This is as I stated industrial standard, of cause exeption exists where geography don't allow it such as urban areas.
Silly argument with nobody providing any information.

Well, from the French Wikipedia, LGV Nord;

Quote:
La ligne s’étend sur un total de 333 km, dont 210 km d'Arnouville-lès-Gonesse, au nord-est de la banlieue parisienne, à la frontière belge et 113 de Fretin à Fréthun. Les régions françaises traversées sont l’Île-de-France, la Picardie et le Nord-Pas-de-Calais. Le rayon minimal des courbes est de 6000 m, les plus faibles dans certains cas atteignant 4000 m. Les rampes maximales sont de 25 ‰, limitées par la géographie des régions traversées.
UK's HS2 will be built for 6km-cur-ra/400km/h, HS1 was built with 3km-cur-ra/300km/h.

The min curve radius for any given speed varies depending on the lateral acceleration criteria of the local railway authority.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sopomon
The TGV ran at 574 km/h on a line which, according to your figures, has turn radii of only 5000 m. Yes, it may have had a little more lateral g-forces than normal, but with the height of the duplex cars, I can hardly believe they'd allow extreme lateral g's as the train would simply tip over! And even then, I highly doubt that wheel on rail technology will ever be used much above 400km/h, as it simply becomes prohibitively expensive past that point.
No it wouldn't tip over. Turn radii is for passenger comfort, first. Tip over is typically many 100's km/h faster than the design speed of the route. And anyway, if you watch the record video you'll see they did it over a section of very gentle curves compared to much of the rest of the line.
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Old July 30th, 2012, 01:08 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by makita09 View Post
Silly argument with nobody providing any information..

In France, LN5, LN6 and LN7 are all built with 350km/h as design speed. Of these only LN5 or LGV Méditerranée have curves tighter than 7 km and they are located in the Marseille urban area. LN5 generally have curves with 10-15 km radius. LN 6 is prepared (curve radius, track separation etc) for future speed increases up to 400km/h.

In Spain LAV Madrid-Barcelona is built with minimum 7km curve radius but generally between 10 and 15km. Exceptions are Madrid and Barcelona urban areas. Here trains can run 350km/h uniterupted for 570km between km mark 16 and km mark 587, it is perfectly possible to run Madrid-Barcelona in 2h flat. The reasons they do not run faster than 300km/h are purely economical.

In Spain also LAV Madrid-Valencia, Córdoba-Málaga, Madrid-Valladolid (and the extensions UC to León, Zamora and Burgos) and Ourense-Santiago de Compostela are built with 350km/h as the design speed, with curve radius beween 7 and up to 20km (part of the Madrid-Valladolid line is built with specifications allowing comercial speed up to 500km/h if that would ever be possible).

The irony of all the crap this foxmulder guy is posting is that the German technical consutants hired by the chinese MOR for the construction of their HSR lines are the same consultants hired by the spanish railway adminstration for their HSR constructions and also hired by the Koreans for their HSR lines to.

In the end these are all German HSR lines by design evolving from the Hanover–Würzburg HSR line built in the 1970s and 1980s. Just google Deutsche Eisenbahn Consulting GmbH.

Last edited by gincan; July 30th, 2012 at 01:18 PM.
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Old July 30th, 2012, 04:13 PM   #53
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agreed. Foxmulder is wrong.
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Old July 30th, 2012, 04:23 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by gramercy View Post
bold things seem to have that in common

and yet, most of the time, they succeed in the end
Actually most of the time bold ideas don't succeed. But it's only the ones that do succeed that we remember...
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Old July 30th, 2012, 06:24 PM   #55
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well then, this one we will certainly remember

particularly when 5-8 years from now they will already have an ultra-high speed/capacity PDL/ICL network and they'll refocus to build European-style S-bahn in the inter-urban spaces AND to build subway network in "smaller" cities AND probably they'll also refocus to lots of trams

i can't wait when china starts to build trams in their 200-800k-ish cities
how many of those do they have? a thousand?

--

and, even on slower lines they are forced to use lots of tunnels and viaducts, so really, how much more 'efficient' would it be to build these pdls/icls with smaller radii? when they are already forced to put 80-90% of it on bridges/in tunnels...
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Old July 31st, 2012, 04:03 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gincan View Post
In France, LN5, LN6 and LN7 are all built with 350km/h as design speed. Of these only LN5 or LGV Méditerranée have curves tighter than 7 km and they are located in the Marseille urban area. LN5 generally have curves with 10-15 km radius. LN 6 is prepared (curve radius, track separation etc) for future speed increases up to 400km/h.

In Spain LAV Madrid-Barcelona is built with minimum 7km curve radius but generally between 10 and 15km. Exceptions are Madrid and Barcelona urban areas. Here trains can run 350km/h uniterupted for 570km between km mark 16 and km mark 587, it is perfectly possible to run Madrid-Barcelona in 2h flat. The reasons they do not run faster than 300km/h are purely economical.

In Spain also LAV Madrid-Valencia, Córdoba-Málaga, Madrid-Valladolid (and the extensions UC to León, Zamora and Burgos) and Ourense-Santiago de Compostela are built with 350km/h as the design speed, with curve radius beween 7 and up to 20km (part of the Madrid-Valladolid line is built with specifications allowing comercial speed up to 500km/h if that would ever be possible).

The irony of all the crap this foxmulder guy is posting is that the German technical consutants hired by the chinese MOR for the construction of their HSR lines are the same consultants hired by the spanish railway adminstration for their HSR constructions and also hired by the Koreans for their HSR lines to.

In the end these are all German HSR lines by design evolving from the Hanover–Würzburg HSR line built in the 1970s and 1980s. Just google Deutsche Eisenbahn Consulting GmbH.
Ohhh, this is so cute.

You are hilarious

You decided to abandon you fist claim that Japan, Germany and Italy have 7000m curves, too. That's good, progress.

Stop lying to people. The lines you are mentioning all have "exceptions" which have much tighter turns than 7000m.

AV Madrid-Barcelona has a substantial stretch (Calatayud-Zaragoza) with a much tighter curve radius so you can never run a high speed train from Madrid to Barcelona in 2 hrs.

LGV Méditerranée has 4000m not 7000m.

Even the record breaking strange (i.e the straightest piece of railway in France) have 6250m turn on it.

[IMG]http://i48.************/1zqcvf7.jpg[/IMG]

The point Chinese 350km/h network do not have even those exceptions, if we omit those then Chinese network will have a min curve radius of 10,000m. It is pretty well known that especially Beijing-Shanghai railroad was planned to have 380km/h operation soon (since names of CRH380A/B trains), before all those political scandals.
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Old July 31st, 2012, 06:24 AM   #57
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[IMG]http://i48.************/1zqcvf7.jpg[/IMG]



Uhh, that map is from the previous record attempt, in the 1990's.

Oh and, from: http://www.adif.es/en_US/infraestruc...francesa.shtml
-------------------
Infrastructure

The construction design used was highly demanding so as to allow the development of maximum speeds of 350 km/h on commercial services and to guarantee interoperability in line with European regulations.

International gauge, compatible signalling system, standard electrification
Minimum 7000 m radius bends on the general track
Ramps under 2.5%
Maximum 140 mm slope
Junctions suitable for 350 km/h
------------------------------
Am I missing anything here?
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Old July 31st, 2012, 09:20 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sopomon View Post
[IMG]http://i48.************/1zqcvf7.jpg[/IMG]



Uhh, that map is from the previous record attempt, in the 1990's.

Oh and, from: http://www.adif.es/en_US/infraestruc...francesa.shtml
-------------------
Infrastructure

The construction design used was highly demanding so as to allow the development of maximum speeds of 350 km/h on commercial services and to guarantee interoperability in line with European regulations.

International gauge, compatible signalling system, standard electrification
Minimum 7000 m radius bends on the general track
Ramps under 2.5%
Maximum 140 mm slope
Junctions suitable for 350 km/h
------------------------------
Am I missing anything here?

From your source:

"The track is designed for speeds of up to 350 km/h in nearly 86% of the route, although Renfe Operadora runs commercial services at 310 km/h, after the entry into service in 2011 of ERTMS Level 2."

14% is what I wrote above.
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Old July 31st, 2012, 11:32 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foxmulder View Post
Ohhh, this is so cute.

You are hilarious
LOL, and you are dumber than f***.


Quote:
Originally Posted by foxmulder View Post
You decided to abandon you fist claim that Japan, Germany and Italy have 7000m curves, too. That's good, progress.
This is what I wrote:
all lines built for speeds in excess of 300km/h have 7 km curve radius. This is as I stated industrial standard.

You find them in Spain, France, Korea, Italy and Japan I forgot to mention Taiwan but I guess you don't even know that country exist, I'll give you a hint, Chinese Taipei

Quote:
Originally Posted by foxmulder View Post
Stop lying to people. The lines you are mentioning all have "exceptions" which have much tighter turns than 7000m.
This is what I wrote:
of cause exceptions exists where geography don't allow it such as urban areas.

You see, in the civilized world where there are basic human rights, governments can't simply bulldozer huge swaths of land displacing hundreds of thousands of citizens without their consent.

And as I stated, these exceptions you find in urban areas because in Europe and the civilized part of Asia, trainstations are located as close as possible to the city center. Not like in China where you often find youself having to take a 40-50 minute taxi ride to reach the city centre or commercial district.

Quote:
Originally Posted by foxmulder View Post
AV Madrid-Barcelona has a substantial stretch (Calatayud-Zaragoza) with a much tighter curve radius so you can never run a high speed train from Madrid to Barcelona in 2 hrs.
Actually you can, it has already been done during test runs.


Quote:
Originally Posted by foxmulder View Post
[IMG]http://i48.************/1zqcvf7.jpg[/IMG]

The point Chinese 350km/h network do not have even those exceptions, if we omit those then Chinese network will have a min curve radius of 10,000m. It is pretty well known that especially Beijing-Shanghai railroad was planned to have 380km/h operation soon (since names of CRH380A/B trains), before all those political scandals.
And now you post a map of a line I have not even mentioned

You know, even the the Chinese ruling elite in Bejing could not bulldoze completely as they pleased so you still have slow curves on Beijing-Shanghai railroad right after Beijing south railway station, they certainly aren't 7000 meters, more like 700 meters

Last edited by gincan; July 31st, 2012 at 11:52 AM.
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Old July 31st, 2012, 11:51 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foxmulder View Post
From your source:

"The track is designed for speeds of up to 350 km/h in nearly 86% of the route, although Renfe Operadora runs commercial services at 310 km/h, after the entry into service in 2011 of ERTMS Level 2."

14% is what I wrote above.
Um, just to sort of try to wrangle this argument back to my original point, as Gincan wote; tests were conducted long that stretch at very high speeds, enabling the two hour running time. It also means that for anything up to 350 km/h, turn radii of some amount under 7000m are fine. It's basically a moot point to claim that 7000m radii turn are a necessary advancement to run at such speeds.

7000m was probably designed so that the trains could run at 400 km/h plus without major infrastucture upgrades, but as we've come to realise, 350 km/h is about as fast as you can go economically.
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