General Motors headed towards bankruptcy--Again..Forbes

[papa_spaz]

http://www.forbes.com/sites/louiswoo...kruptcy-again/



"Right now, the government’s GM stock is worth about 39% less than it was on November 17, 2010, when the company went public at $33.00/share. However, during the intervening time, the Dow Jones Industrial Average has risen by almost 20%, so GM shares have lost 49% of their value relative to the Dow"


Bad news for Detroit.

[Bond James Bond]

^
That was one of the WORST written articles I've read in a while, and believe me, I've read some pretty bad ones!

Just because the price of the stock has gone down, says NOTHING about whether they're headed for bankruptcy again. In fact, neither does market share.

In Q2, GM's profits were $1.5 billion, and while that was down a lot from Q2 2011, it's not remotely close to anything bordering fears of bankruptcy. Additionally, most of the weakness was due to Europe. Whenever Europe picks up again, so will GM's profits.

And the part about comparing the Malibu to the Passat, as if that had ANYTHING to do with an impending bankruptcy, was utterly pathetic! I mean, gee! GM makes hugely better pickup trucks than VW (hint: VW doesn't make any pickup trucks at all!) so, like, golly gee that must mean GM is a superior company to VW.

[papa_spaz]

GM got over $90 billion in assets added to the business as part of the bailout. What is the market value of the company? Less than $30 billion. Care to explain how GM converted $90 billion in assets into $30 billion of market value in 3 years?



The Volt looked like such a winner too.

[MN_Badger]

Originally Posted by papa_spaz

GM got over $90 billion in assets added to the business as part of the bailout. What is the market value of the company? Less than $30 billion. Care to explain how GM converted $90 billion in assets into $30 billion of market value in 3 years?



The Volt looked like such a winner too.

The auto bailout was $80bn in total - including ALL players involved. (According to the arch-conservative Washington Times.) This makes your assertion that GM alone received $90bn look rather misinformed.

Of the $49.5bn that GM actually received, half has been paid back. The expected losses on what hasn't yet been paid back total $12bn. How you can attempt to spin a $12bn loss (nothing to sneeze at, but to many Americans, acceptable given the jobs saved and the timing of their saving) into a $60bn loss (preposterous) is beyond me.

Back to Zero Hedge from whence you came, basement dweller.

[hudkina]

GM's stock is undervalued anyway. Once the economic engine in Europe revs back to full power, GM will be raking in tons of money and the stock will rise accordingly. It may not reach the $53 per share the government needs to break even, but it could easily get back into the $30-$40 range once Europe is put back together.

[papa_spaz]

Originally Posted by MN_Badger

The auto bailout was $80bn in total - including ALL players involved. (According to the arch-conservative Washington Times.) This makes your assertion that GM alone received $90bn look rather misinformed.

Of the $49.5bn that GM actually received, half has been paid back. The expected losses on what hasn't yet been paid back total $12bn. How you can attempt to spin a $12bn loss (nothing to sneeze at, but to many Americans, acceptable given the jobs saved and the timing of their saving) into a $60bn loss (preposterous) is beyond me.

Back to Zero Hedge from whence you came, basement dweller.

There’s a tale of two bailouts… One, the money was handed over with no obligations, the other, the money was lent, on a hard schedule to repay. One, the management was picked by politicians, the other, the management was a businessman.

GM, as being discussed, is indeed not succeeding. Rushing a product to market, after spending billions, and coming in less than 2nd in your segment, is a key to disaster.

I agree that there is no compelling evidence that Government Motors is managed well enough to overcome its age-old inertia of anal retentiveness. Quite simply, there is not one shred of management acumen in the company, and more profound, that even if there was, the corporation consumes anyone who dares cross the “culture of ankle biting.”


The next bankruptcy of Government Motors will not be what you think – it will be a pre-arranged debt swap with the Chinese – the Chinese will forgive the debt and interest on Government Motors in exchange for the company’s total assets. The US taxpayers get out without losing a dime and the chinese get this precious ability to enter the US market. The Chinese then get the global distribution system of GM and the ability to start selling Chinese made vehicles here under an established set of brands. Already there is a huge collection of Chinese Government Motors factories – some financed with the US taxpayer bailout. Don’t doubt me – if this is not already set up as part of the ability to secure loans, it will be a deal. This will be sold as a way to preserve American jobs, but you know better.

The entire GM bailout was a fraud. If GM was meant to be saved, it would have had been sold to another company like Chrysler was to Fiat. The fact that a company with half of its divisions with 70% of its production overseas remains here now isn’t to save a single US job. It is a chess move by the Chinese to gain access the easy way.

[atrain5371]

I almost have to believe that conservatives hate this bailout so much is because the right people got paid. When GM had huge profits last year they shared with the workers who helped make it happen by being more productive and making better vehicles. Instead of most companies where only investors and executives get paid when there's a profit GM gave $4000 bonuses to every line worker because they had performed better. That's how the free market is supposed to work not this corporatism that is peddled around so much lately.

Anyways I don't know anything about the companies long term viability but I think saying they'll go bankrupt anytime soon is simply foolish. That bailout saved thousands of decent paying jobs and continues to and will for sometime. At the same time you can applaud Ford for not needing the taxpayers to bail them out.

[desertpunk]

Europe's been dragging Ford down too but no one is writing their epitaph. I think it's really premature to talk about another GM bailout unless European losses wipe out all their equity (unlikely). If nothing else, they can always ship another 1 or 2 million Buicks to China!

[MN_Badger]

Originally Posted by papa_spaz

There’s a tale of two bailouts… One, the money was handed over with no obligations, the other, the money was lent, on a hard schedule to repay. One, the management was picked by politicians, the other, the management was a businessman.

GM, as being discussed, is indeed not succeeding. Rushing a product to market, after spending billions, and coming in less than 2nd in your segment, is a key to disaster.

I agree that there is no compelling evidence that Government Motors is managed well enough to overcome its age-old inertia of anal retentiveness. Quite simply, there is not one shred of management acumen in the company, and more profound, that even if there was, the corporation consumes anyone who dares cross the “culture of ankle biting.”


The next bankruptcy of Government Motors will not be what you think – it will be a pre-arranged debt swap with the Chinese – the Chinese will forgive the debt and interest on Government Motors in exchange for the company’s total assets. The US taxpayers get out without losing a dime and the chinese get this precious ability to enter the US market. The Chinese then get the global distribution system of GM and the ability to start selling Chinese made vehicles here under an established set of brands. Already there is a huge collection of Chinese Government Motors factories – some financed with the US taxpayer bailout. Don’t doubt me – if this is not already set up as part of the ability to secure loans, it will be a deal. This will be sold as a way to preserve American jobs, but you know better.

The entire GM bailout was a fraud. If GM was meant to be saved, it would have had been sold to another company like Chrysler was to Fiat. The fact that a company with half of its divisions with 70% of its production overseas remains here now isn’t to save a single US job. It is a chess move by the Chinese to gain access the easy way.

I don't see how waxing conspiratorial can do anything to disprove what I said about the numbers you presented.

[hudkina]

The government thought Chrysler was too far gone to survive on its own, so they basically gave the company to Fiat hoping that company would keep Chrysler afloat. The irony is that Chrysler not only could have survived completely on its own, but it is Chrysler that has been keeping Fiat afloat.

BTW, if I'm in the market for a midsize bread and butter sedan, the last source I would trust is Car & Driver. They think anything that isn't a BMW 3-Series is shitty.

[Bond James Bond]

Originally Posted by papa_spaz

GM, as being discussed, is indeed not succeeding. Rushing a product to market, after spending billions, and coming in less than 2nd in your segment, is a key to disaster.

It takes quite a lot for me to insult someone, but ... what a COMPLETELY idiotic statement! I mean ... BEYOND STUPID!! In a hyper-competitive business like autos, somebody is going to have to come in less than 2nd in a segment (in fact ... all but 2 companies will have the honor! DUH!), and they ALL pretty much spend hundreds of millions or billions on product development for a new model. Just because every company that does this but doesn't come in first or second in sales in that segment, doesn't mean they're all doomed for bankruptcy!

By this idiotic logic, Toyota is doomed for bankruptcy just because the RAV4 isn't the #1 or #2 best-selling SUV. And maybe Nissan is also doomed for bankruptcy just because the Rogue also isn't the #1 or #2 selling SUV.

[Bond James Bond]

Originally Posted by papa_spaz

The entire GM bailout was a fraud. If GM was meant to be saved, it would have had been sold to another company like Chrysler was to Fiat. The fact that a company with half of its divisions with 70% of its production overseas remains here now isn’t to save a single US job. It is a chess move by the Chinese to gain access the easy way.

Put your money where your mouth is. $1,000 says GM will not be sold or otherwise transferred to a Chinese company any time in the next 10 years.

Bet?

[Bond James Bond]

Just for the entertainment value, I thought I'd go to GM's earnings releases webpage and see just exactly how close GM is to bankruptcy. Now, if GM were headed toward bankruptcy sometime in the reasonably near future, we would expect to see a company under great stress with lots of recent earnings losses - correct? Well, let's see (links are PDF's) ...

Q2 2012: Net Income of $1.5 Billion on Revenue of $37.6 Billion
Q1 2012: Net Income of $1.0 Billion on Revenue of $37.8 Billion
Q4 2011: Net Income of $500 Million on Revenue of $38.0 Billion
Q3 2011: Net Income of $1.7 Billion on Revenue of $36.7 Billion
Q2 2011: Net Income of $2.5 Billion on Revenue of $39.4 Billion
Q1 2011: Net Income of $3.2 Billion on Revenue of $36.2 Billion
Q4 2010: Net Income of $500 Million on Revenue of $36.9 Billion
Q3 2010: Net Income of $2.0 Billion on Revenue of $34.1 Billion
Q2 2010: Net Income of $1.3 Billion on Revenue of $33.2 Billion
Q1 2010: Net Income of $900 Million on Revenue of $31.5 Billion

So, 10 straight quarters of profitability, only 3 of which were below $1 billion. Yeah, this sounds like a company headed for bankruptcy really soon!

[papa_spaz]

http://frontpagemag.com/2012/arnold-...or-bankruptcy/

Obama’s GM ‘Success Story’ Headed for Bankruptcy

"The numbers are stark. The 500,000 shares of GM stock, comprising 26 percent of the company owned by the government–or more accurately the American taxpayer–sold for $20.21 on Tuesday. This left the government holding $10.1 billion worth of stock representing an unrealized loss of $16.4 billion."

"In June, while the media was busy touting GM’s “success,” government purchases of GM vehicles rose a staggering 79 percent. And no doubt by sheer coincidence the purchase occurred only weeks before GM was to announce its 2nd Quarter earnings. "


Yet another article.

[hudkina]

The thing about the internet these days is that any 2-bit dumbass conservative blogger can wish he were a legitimate journalist. It still doesn't make it so...

The 2013 Chevy Malibu is just as good any other car in the segment. The biggest problem Car and Driver had was with the Eco model and it's as-tested fuel economy. The problem with their opinion is that the Malibu Eco is geared specifically for highway commuting, not enthusiastically driving around on an empty parking lot dotted with orange cones. The Malibu Eco has a highway fuel economy rating of 37 MPG, compared to 35 MPG for the Camry, 34 MPG for the Accord, and 33 MPG for the Fusion. The type of people who might be interested in the Malibu Eco are going to be be the long-distance highway commuters, and for many the higher freeway MPG is enough to sway them.

[ohpenn]

Wow, rightwing sites say GM is doomed. Of course they say that. They are actually rooting against GM and American workers. It's twisted and sick.

Also, wingnuts have hate, hate, hate the Volt. Remember the circus lead by Rush against the Volt? Once again, it's not rational.

There are serious things to question and debate regarding GM and other companies, but so much of the "discussion" is rightwing political nonsense.

[Bond James Bond]

Bump.

Originally Posted by Bond James Bond

Put your money where your mouth is. $1,000 says GM will not be sold or otherwise transferred to a Chinese company any time in the next 10 years.

Bet?

[usbmfa]

Originally Posted by atrain5371

I almost have to believe that conservatives hate this bailout so much is because the right people got paid. When GM had huge profits last year they shared with the workers who helped make it happen by being more productive and making better vehicles. Instead of most companies where only investors and executives get paid when there's a profit GM gave $4000 bonuses to every line worker because they had performed better. That's how the free market is supposed to work not this corporatism that is peddled around so much lately.

Anyways I don't know anything about the companies long term viability but I think saying they'll go bankrupt anytime soon is simply foolish. That bailout saved thousands of decent paying jobs and continues to and will for sometime. At the same time you can applaud Ford for not needing the taxpayers to bail them out.

Oh my...

I don't think you know what capitalism is.

Let's talk about who got paid.

Under the plan, bondholders in the pre-bankruptcy GM and other creditors will receive a 10 percent stake in the new GM along with warrants that can be exercised for another 15 percent.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...72303S20110304
http://www.thenewamerican.com/econom...kruptcy-emerge

Do you know who got a lousy 10% of GM? You did. Yep, you. You owned GM in your 401k, and maybe even pension, if you are lucky enough. Where did that other 90%. Uncle Sam got 60 % of GM, but last we checked, those shares are way underwater. So you owe money on those shares. UAW got 17.5% of GM. That is the pension. They own those same shares that keep tanking. Finally, Canada and Ontario got the last 12.5%. So you see, you got royally screwed on this deal, but the union folks are doing ok, for now. The problem is they are stuck with those GM shares that keep tanking. Can you say bailout. Also, it looks like GM is showing profit again, so the union will want to reclaim all it gave up in the reorg. We should also probably the mention the thousands who lost their jobs at GM dealerships and the mothership itself during this process. As well as the pensions of the non-union folk that were wiped during the reorg.

GM was the end of capitalism as it existed before. Where we are now, is purely up to crooks in DC.

[hudkina]

Just so we're all clear, the UAW does not own 17.5% of GM. The 17.5% in GM that is attributed to the UAW actually belongs to a VEBA set up to run the pension obligations so that GM will no longer be liable for those obligations.

[Bond James Bond]

Still awaiting that bankruptcy!

Q3 2012: Net income of $1.5 Billion on Revenue of $37.6 Billion
Q2 2012: Net Income of $1.5 Billion on Revenue of $37.6 Billion
Q1 2012: Net Income of $1.0 Billion on Revenue of $37.8 Billion
Q4 2011: Net Income of $500 Million on Revenue of $38.0 Billion
Q3 2011: Net Income of $1.7 Billion on Revenue of $36.7 Billion
Q2 2011: Net Income of $2.5 Billion on Revenue of $39.4 Billion
Q1 2011: Net Income of $3.2 Billion on Revenue of $36.2 Billion
Q4 2010: Net Income of $500 Million on Revenue of $36.9 Billion
Q3 2010: Net Income of $2.0 Billion on Revenue of $34.1 Billion
Q2 2010: Net Income of $1.3 Billion on Revenue of $33.2 Billion
Q1 2010: Net Income of $900 Million on Revenue of $31.5 Billion

So, 11 straight quarters of profitability, only 3 of which were below $1 billion. Yeah, this sounds like a company headed for bankruptcy really soon!