Toronto is Booming, but how?

[Taller, Better]

Originally Posted by QuantumX

Chicago is the birthplace of the skyscraper and the mecca of skyscraper enthusiasts. There is a rich historical tradition of architectural beauty both past and present.

Why don't you have any supertalls though? What is up with that?

Aside from the CN Tower, we've got the First Canadian Place from the '70's that happened to be built a few feet short of the later-determined 1000 foot level for a "supertall", and the antennae on top apparently doesn't count as a spire as so many other anntennae do on buildings around the world.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by QuantumX

Chicago is the birthplace of the skyscraper and the mecca of skyscraper enthusiasts.

The skyscraper is a product of advancements in building technology in the western world. Birthplace of the skyscraper is a self appointed moniker. Crediting 1 city is an exaggeration of the facts. Chicago built some of the first buildings using the new technology is a more accurate summation.

There's a thread on this very subject with strong and valid arguments contradicting your contention.

[QuantumX]

Originally Posted by Taller, Better

Aside from the CN Tower, we've got the First Canadian Place from the '70's that happened to be built a few feet short of the later-determined 1000 foot level for a "supertall", and the antennae on top apparently doesn't count as a spire as so many other anntennae do on buildings around the world.

Yes, this much I did know, but you don't have any height restictions preventing this, right? You just don't happen to have any right now. Is that correct? According to the CTBUH, antennae don't count and spires do because they are an integral part of the original design of a building and not an add on.

Originally Posted by isaidso

The skyscraper is a product of advancements in building technology in the western world. Birthplace of the skyscraper is a self appointed moniker. Crediting 1 city is an exaggeration of the facts. Chicago built some of the first buildings using the new technology is a more accurate summation.

There's a thread on this very subject with strong and valid arguments contradicting your contention.

Yes, I'm aware of that, but it has always been my understanding that the engineering technology that made the very tall buildings that came later possible (the steel frame) was born in Chicago not long after the Great Chicago Fire. Where is this thread? I would like to see what arguments they use.

[QuantumX]

I pulled this off City-Data. Looks like City-Data might be good for something after all.

"Claims that Chicago is the "birthplace of the modern skyscraper" have been challenged by architects and experts in the past. There are some very real and very credible arguments that New York is the true birthplace."

In most accurate versions of history, New York City had surpassed Chicago in the "skyscraper race" in the early to mid 20th century. The first buildings that everyone and their grandmother considered "skyscrapers" were built in New York City. The word skyscraper (originally a nautical term) was first printed in Chicago but was more popularly applied to the tall buildings being built in New York in the late 19th century. In the grand scheme of things, Chicago was only partially responsible for advancing the technology. The first metal framed building was built in England nearly 90 years before the Home Insurance Building in Chicago! And then there is this...
from Science News all the way back in 1986 about a skeleton frame buiding in New york that pre-dates the Home Insurance Building and is thought to be the first "true skyscraper"... the quote is by an expert on Chicago architecture and retired Northwesten professor.

"In my view, we can no longer argue that the Home Insurance Building was the first skyscraper," says Carl W. Condit, now retired from Northwestern University in Evanston, Ill., and author of several books on Chicago architecture. "The claim rests on an unacceptably narrow idea of what constitutes a high-rise commercial building," he says.

"If there is a building in which all these technical factors (of a skyscraper)--structural system, elevator, utilities--converge at the requisite level of maturity," argues architectural historian Carl Condit, "it's the Equitable Life Assurance Building in New York." Completed in 1870, the building rose 7-1/2 stories, twice the height of its neighbors. To lighten the building and keep costs down, engineer George B. Post used a primitive type of skeletal frame in its construction. A great fire destroyed the building in 1912.

Here is also a link..
The first skyscraper - new theory that Home Insurance Building was not the first | Science News | Find Articles at BNET


Read more: http://www.city-data.com/forum/city-...#ixzz29NUmOMjS

[QuantumX]

Originally Posted by QuantumX

If most of what is planned actually gets built, I think Toronto most probably will be in the top 10 by the end of this decade, and Miami will have a lock on having the 3rd largest skyline in the U.S. after New York and Chicago.

Anyway, I made this list from Emporis of the building heights in feet you currenty have under construction with their scheduled year of completion. No way do I believe nothing will be built between 2015 and 2020. By 2020, you will probably have a bigger skyline than Shenzhen and Singapore, which is now listed as 10th in the world.

http://tudl0867.home.xs4all.nl/skylines.html

896 2014
801 2014
696 2013
673 2013
604 2015
584 2014
525 2014
512 2013
512 2014
509 2012
505 2014
505 2013
502 2012
493 2012
492 2013
482 2015
479 2012
476 2014
472 2012
469 2012
453 2014
450 2014

[rbt]

Originally Posted by QuantumX

Anyway, I made this list from Emporis of the building heights in feet you currenty have under construction with their scheduled year of completion.

If I understand this list correctly, ten 395 foot buildings would add 1000 points to a city?

Alternatiely, five 495 foot buildings would add 1000 points to a city.

So the buildings currently under construction from your list (assume no new starts) in Toronto would add 5600 points to the current total.

In addition to those, there are another 25+ buildings over 295 feet currently under construction which may add an additional 1500 points (The Bond, Emerald Park, Spectra, Studio, Brenmer Tower, Gibson Square +2, Ocean Club, Tableau, Charlie, Hullmark South, Westlake, Key West, Thunderbird, Nicholas, Backstage, Ultra A, Sick Kids, Milan, King Charlotte, ...)

If nobody else built anything, Toronto would indeed be solidly in 10th place on that list in 2015.

[Taller, Better]

To my understanding, Chicago is widely viewed as "The birthplace of the modern skyscraper" because the Bauhaus School (Van der Rohe. Gropius, Le Corbusier, etc...) relocated there from Germany during WW2. I would say this is accepted in the industry and the educational system and not a self appointed moniker. I do not think it is the birthplace of the skyscraper (after invention of elevators), per se...... New York might have a claim on that one.

[QuantumX]

Originally Posted by Taller, Better

To my understanding, Chicago is widely viewed as "The birthplace of the modern skyscraper" because the Bauhaus School (Van der Rohe. Gropius, Le Corbusier, etc...) relocated there from Germany during WW2. I would say this is accepted in the industry and the educational system and not a self appointed moniker. I do not think it is the birthplace of the skyscraper (after invention of elevators), per se...... New York might have a claim on that one.

I'm going to go with ancient Egypt (elevators or not)!

[Taller, Better]

hehe.. that is why I included the part about post-elevators! The invention of the elevator (along with steel construction) freed architects and allowed the construction of the modern "skyscraper". Canada's first skyscraper was built in Montreal in 1888:





Toronto's first elevator (Otis No.1) went into our first skyscraper in 1892:

[OEincorparated]

Soon Toronto will be unrecognizable, except for cn tower. It would be neat to see what TO would look like in 30yrs but with something replacing cn tower though. Maybe someone with Photoshop skills can give it a try.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by QuantumX

"Claims that Chicago is the "birthplace of the modern skyscraper" have been challenged by architects and experts in the past.

I've heard most of the arguments for and against 'ad nauseam' and came to the conclusion that it's sort of like the claim that Edison invented the light bulb. What's widely accepted as fact is sometimes far from it. There are even some claims that we teach in university that are dubious at best and are being challenged.

I don't recognize Chicago as the birthplace of the skyscraper or that Edison invented the light bulb... and I'm not alone.

[rbt]

Originally Posted by isaidso

I've heard most of the arguments for and against 'ad nauseam' and came to the conclusion that it's sort of like the claim that Edison invented the light bulb. What's widely accepted as fact is sometimes far from it. There are some claims that we even teach in university that are dubious at best.

In many cases supporting technology gets to a level where an extension or new technology becomes obvious and is almost simultaneously created by several different groups.

If Chicago did not exist, another city would have been the birthplace of the skyscraper in that same time frame.

We tend to reward the first out of the gate who embraces the new technology and Chicago has certainly embraced the skyscraper.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by rbt

In many cases supporting technology gets to a level where an extension or new technology becomes obvious and is almost simultaneously created by several different groups.

If Chicago did not exist, another city would have been the birthplace of the skyscraper in that same time frame.

We tend to reward the first out of the gate who embraces the new technology and Chicago has certainly embraced the skyscraper.

That's pretty much how I see it. They get undue credit for being in the right place at the right time. They just happened to be the big booming city of the day that needed to maximize limited land. All they did was make use of the technology of the day.

They were the first out of the gate, as you put it. In reality, every booming city back then started building skyscrapers within a few years of each other. It would have happened with or without Chicago.

[Taller, Better]

I'm puzzled by your stance. No one is saying it would not have happened without Chicago, but without the Bauhaus School and its development of the International Style of highrise tower (which, by the way, is a fact and not civic bragging by Chicago) our skyscrapers and skylines would be completely and utterly different than they are. I doubt very much if any of the towers in our CBD would look the way they do without the inspiration of architects such as Mies van der Rhoe.

"I don't recognize Chicago as the birthplace of the skyscraper".

Again, I repeat, no one says Chicago is the birthplace of the skyscraper. Many consider it to be the birthplace of the modern skyscraper, however. You are under no obligation to believe this or not, but I can assure you that many others do. "Skyscrapers", per se, have been around for a very, very long time and traditionally were highly decorative. The International School pared down the look with its "Less is More" philosophy and an emphasis on unbroken vertical lines reflecting the soaring height of the structures. If it hadn't been for Chicago or the Bauhaus School, surely something similar may have happened somewhere else with a different design philosophy and different looking "skyscrapers" all over the world. Then these same people would consider whichever theoretical city that might be to be the birthplace of the modern skyscraper if they believe in giving credit where credit is due.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by Taller, Better

Again, I repeat, no one says Chicago is the birthplace of the skyscraper.

Perhaps not in this discussion, but go to the US forums.

Btw, we're talking about skyscrapers not the International Style. They are not one in the same.

[Taller, Better]

Originally Posted by isaidso

Btw, we're talking about skyscrapers not the International Style. They are not one in the same.

I didn't say they were the same thing. I'm at a loss to further explain my stance on how Bauhaus School architects like Mies van der Rhoe completely revolutionized the idea of the "skyscraper" that we see in CBD's of cities around the world. The type of tall buildings they designed fall under the category of "International Style" which was their philosophy of design. I think I've been quite consistent in saying that "skyscrapers", per se, have been around long, long before the Bauhaus School, but I don't personally consider buildings like the Chrysler Building or the Empire State Building to be "modern" skyscrapers. I consider the Seagram's Building or our Toronto Dominion tower to be so, however. I should hasten to add that "Modernist" towers and "contemporary" towers are not the same thing. Architects like Gehry and Foster design "contemporary" towers, but they cannot be described as "Modernist".

[duff+eglin]

Originally Posted by QuantumX

Anyway, I made this list from Emporis of the building heights in feet you currenty have under construction with their scheduled year of completion. No way do I believe nothing will be built between 2015 and 2020. By 2020, you will probably have a bigger skyline than Shenzhen and Singapore, which is now listed as 10th in the world.

I wish people wouldn't make statements like that about cities in China because the stats are really so hard to come by. I work in real estate in Shanghai and I assure you the lists you will see almost anywhere about what is under construction in large Chinese cities dramatically understates the true number. Shenzhen, the city you mentioned, is building so many more highrises/skyscrapers than Toronto and it isn't even close. I'm talking well over double. I normally keep quiet when I see the lists on here but once in awhile I feel like saying something.


Edit: For the record, I have no Chinese or even Asian ancestry whatsoever and am not pushing anything for any reason except it's the doggone the truth, and I am in love with the truth. It truly is a see it to believe it type situation.

[rbt]

Originally Posted by duff+eglin

I wish people wouldn't make statements like that about cities in China because the stats are really so hard to come by.

Emporis isn't the real-world though; it's at best a subset of it and at worst an abstract version of reality (sometimes the data is really wrong and editors don't make corrections).

This statement regarding ranking was with regard to the Emporis world, not the real one and you are completely correct that it is unwise to confuse the two.

[duff+eglin]

Originally Posted by rbt

This statement regarding ranking was with regard to the Emporis world, not the real one and you are completely correct that it is unwise to confuse the two.

Yes, I'm not sure how aware everyone is of that. On here, I'm sure we pretty much all are. Just to give one example. This summer I went to a city called Shenyang and as were coming in on a side road from the airport (the highway was closed), my friend and I counted over 100 buildings 12 storeys (is that still their highrise standard?) or over under construction before we crossed the river and got into what was the truly massively built up urban zone. The rest of the time you literally could not go more than 400 meters without without passing a highrise under construction. Emporis lists only 35 under construction. For all intents and purposes, Emporis is useless when it comes to making even remotely comprehensive comparisons with respect to Chinese cities.

http://www.emporis.com/city/shenyang-china

Emporis lists 8 buildings of 300m or more under construction with a lot more planned. The numbers for the tallest buildings may not understate by much but anything below 50 storeys and it's utterly useless.

Edit: We went up their TV tower and were told that there is a new one planned over 600m. Will look that up tonight and see if I can find it in Chinese. It's definitely not listed on Emporis, though.


Edit2: For the record, I would not trade Toronto's highrise/skyscraper growth for Chinese growth (except for maybe a couple cities). Here is an example of the kind of thing you see ALL the time in cities all over China. This picture is from the city I referenced earlier, Shenyang.



Sorry for the shitty picture. That was my first time uploading one here in more than 6 years as a member. lol.
Original was in post#7 http://www.shenyangbus.com/bbs/viewt...php?tid=116263

They were having a discussion about which part of the city is the most dense with highrises.

[QuantumX]

Originally Posted by duff+eglin

I wish people wouldn't make statements like that about cities in China because the stats are really so hard to come by. I work in real estate in Shanghai and I assure you the lists you will see almost anywhere about what is under construction in large Chinese cities dramatically understates the true number. Shenzhen, the city you mentioned, is building so many more highrises/skyscrapers than Toronto and it isn't even close. I'm talking well over double. I normally keep quiet when I see the lists on here but once in awhile I feel like saying something.


Edit: For the record, I have no Chinese or even Asian ancestry whatsoever and am not pushing anything for any reason except it's the doggone the truth, and I am in love with the truth. It truly is a see it to believe it type situation.

Originally Posted by rbt

Emporis isn't the real-world though; it's at best a subset of it and at worst an abstract version of reality (sometimes the data is really wrong and editors don't make corrections).

This statement regarding ranking was with regard to the Emporis world, not the real one and you are completely correct that it is unwise to confuse the two.

This is the list I'm referring to below and not Emporis. There is a lot on here that I don't agree with, like Tokyo being ranked 4th and Shanghai should probably have the #1 skyline in the world instead of Hong Kong. There are probably too many high-rises in Shanghai for them to count. I would just like to see Toronto on somebody's Top 10 list some day. There is a lot going on here in Miami too that is not on Emporis.

http://tudl0867.home.xs4all.nl/skylines.html