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Old January 31st, 2016, 10:45 PM   #2041
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Well said!! Give him a pint!
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Old January 31st, 2016, 11:07 PM   #2042
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I second that!
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Old February 1st, 2016, 01:44 AM   #2043
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so basically mruczek you are saying that people generally align with an identity that gives them the best chances for survival.
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Old February 1st, 2016, 02:33 PM   #2044
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Why to simplify? I got what he said.
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Old February 1st, 2016, 03:51 PM   #2045
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A few pages of "Ogrod krolewsky (...)" by Bartosz Paprocki (1599)



















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Old February 3rd, 2016, 06:49 PM   #2046
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Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
Church in Grzęda/Sturmhübel (built in 1755-1757), Warmia






Altar (painting by Jozef Korzeniowski)
Interior after partial renovation...



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Old February 5th, 2016, 11:23 PM   #2047
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mruczek View Post
You're unjust to them. Before 19th century there weren't any nations according to today's definition. Some elites perhaps constituting less then few percent of the population, apart from that people were obiously keen to keep their language, religion and traditions but they were not the part of nation as the political entity.
Not everyone would agree, for example the authors of this book (published in 2013) think differently:

Azar Gat, Alexander Yakobson,
"Nations: The Long History and Deep Roots of Political Ethnicity and Nationalism",
Cambridge University Press, 2013:


https://books.google.hu/books?id=HK8...page&q&f=false

According to the authors, England, Denmark, Piast Poland, Portugal and Hungary were true nation-states already in Medieval times.

Check also Polish historycy.org discussions:

On ethnic and national conflicts in Medieval Poland: http://www.historycy.org/index.php?showtopic=134318

On the concept of Polishness in the Middle Ages: http://www.historycy.org/index.php?showtopic=113550

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluminat View Post
There is no such thing like "Polish DNA'.
Why do you think so? Of course Poles share most of their DNA in common with other Europeans. But some variants can be unique.

Populations differ in frequencies of uniparental markers and alleles of other genes. Some variants are very common in some populations.

For example American geneticist Peter Gwozdz in 2009 identified a very specific "P type" ("P" after "Polish") of Y-DNA haplogroup R1a:

http://www.geni.com/projects/R1a-L26...60-Y-DNA/25339

Quote:

Quote:
It is the most distinctly Polish Y-DNA subclade and is far more common in Poland than anywhere else, and is hence frequently referred to as Polish
Of course no group has a total "monopoly" for a given gene. But some DNA variants clearly indicate descent from some groups.
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Old February 6th, 2016, 12:35 AM   #2048
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mruczek
It was actually Gietrzwałd [Dietrichswalde] Revelations in 1870s
Mary appeared and spoke to local teenagers. More about those revelations can be found in this link:

http://www.miraclehunter.com/marian_...ald/index.html

Quote:
Description of the Virgin

The Virgin Mary appeared as a ‘Bright Lady’ sitting on the throne with Infant Christ among Angels.

Messages

Among many questions regarding health and salvation of various persons, the children also asked the following: "Will the Church in the Kingdom of Poland set free?" "Will the deserted parishes in southern Warmia receive their priests soon?" They heard in reply: "Yes, if people pray ardently, then the Church will not be oppressed, and the deserted parishes will receive the priests!"

To those questions was evidenced by oppressions of the Catholic Church in the Kingdom of Poland by tsarist Russia after the January 1863 Uprising and by limitation of its influence in the Prussian sector of partitioned Poland in the period of Kulturkampf.

Our Lady’s answers brought consolation to the Poles. They actually became true. Hence, a great number of Poles from all districts paid visits to Gietrzwald. Due to this fact, the Prussian authorities immediately assumed a resolute negative attitude towards the apparitions. The local administration, the German press and part of the clergy assumed them to be according to Bishop Jan Oblak, a political manifestation, a Polish national demonstration, fraud and superstition, allegedly dangerous to the state, progress and the public peace. They inflicted various punishments on Polish pilgrims, Poles fathers, the local parish priest Father Augustyn Weichsel, including imprisonment, imposition of fines and suspending in the capacity of ministration.

Miracles and Signs

The impact of the apparitions in Warmia was enormous. Most notably, there was a rebirth of moral life and a heightening of worshiper’s awareness. Five years after the events, in a report dated September 27, 1882, Father Augustyn Weichsel wrote: "Not only my parish, but the whole neighborhood has become more pious after the apparitions. This was evidenced by the common reciting of the Holy Rosary all the homes, admittance to the monastery by many people, regular attendance at the church (...) Good effects of the apparitions spread out everywhere, they also infiltrated to the Kingdom of Poland and Russia (...) An apparent result was the habit of the collective reciting of the Rosary everyday. In southern Warmia, the Rosary was prayed in almost at all homes, as well as in the homes of parishes of the Chelmno, Poznan and Wroclaw dioceses".

In the village on the Gilwa River, parishioners were reciting the Rosary in the church three times a day: in the morning, in the afternoon and in the evening. Moreover, there were numerous cases of conversions of sinners. The Holy Sacraments were frequently received.

Approval

After receiving the results of the commissions to examine authenticity of the apparitions, Bishop Filip Krementz in 1878 promoted the publication in German and in Polish of the study by Father Franciszek Hipler entitled "The Apparitions of Our Lady in Gietrzwald to the Catholic People According to the Official Documents".

Prayers

Hymn to the Blessed Virgin Mary of Gietrzwald
by Andrzej Samulowski

It was just the sunset,
When the wonderful brilliant star
Arose in the Warmian land
To shed light with its rays.
This news almost by a miracle
Was spread among the people,
Far and near, they would say:
In Warmia, there are new miracles.

Traditional Prayer

Mother of Our Lord, healer of human souls and bodies, Lady of Giettrzwald, you who blessed this place with your presence, please turn your loving eyes toward me and ask your son Jesus Christ for the favors I am in need of [mention request]. Compassionate and merciful Virgin Mother, I am forever yours.
And here is the chronology:

Quote:
June 27, 1877

Our Lady appeared for the first time to Justyna when she was returning home with her mother after having taken an examination prior to receiving the First Holy Communion.

June 28, 1877

Barbara Samulowska also saw the ‘Bright Lady’ sitting on the throne with Infant Christ among Angels over the maple tree in front of the church while reciting the rosary. The girls asked "Who are you?" she answered, "I am the Blessed Virgin Mary of the Immaculate Conception!". "What do you require, Mother of God?", they asked, the answer was: "I wish you recite the rosary everyday!"

June 30, 1877

Justyna asked: "What You require Holy Mother"? and she heard the answer: "I require, so that you pray Rosary everyday!".

July 1, 1877

On this day, the children from the parish in Gietrzwałd received their First Holy Communion. Justyna asked during the prayer of Rosary
under the maple-tree "Who are You?", and the Holy Mother answered: I am The Most Holy Virgin Mary Immaculately Conceived!"

July 3, 1877

The girls asked the Holy Mother "Whether the sick people who come here, will be healed?" The Holy Mother answered: "The miracle will
happen, and after that the sick people will be healed", and later said: "Let the sick people pray Rosary".

July 10, 1877

The first written account of the Gietrzwald apparitions was provided by the Pelplin "Pielgrzym" (Pilgrim) which compared the events with what had happened a year earlier in Marpingen.

July 28, 1877

On the question, what it means, if somebody swears falsely, the Holy Mother answered: "Such person is not deserving to go to Heaven,
such person is induced to do it by Satan".

Aug 1, 1877

Barbara asked: "Whether the orphaned parishes will receive the priests soon?" – The Holy Mother answered: If people pray zealously, at
the time the Church will not be persecuted, and the orphaned parishes will receive the priests!"

Sep 8, 1877

At about seven o’clock in the evening the Holy Mother blessed the spring and said the words: "Now, the sick people can take this water for their healing". Pilgrims have been taking healing water from it ever since.

Sep 16, 1877

At about five o’clock in the evening the Holy Mother blessed, at the beginning Her own figure in the small chapel, and after that She blessed all people who asked for it and all people. At the end, She said: "PRAY ROSARY ZEALOUSLY!"

Bishop Filip Krementz, administrator of the diocese, required a detailed report from the parish priest, and sent delegates to Gietrzwald to observe the state and behavior of the visionaries in the course of apparitions, to prepare the record of their testimonies and to collect observations of pilgrims and clergy.

The Bishop’s delegates confirmed that the apparitions did not appear fraudulent and that the girls behaved normally. They reported that the girls did not seem to be seeking profit or acknowledgment and possessed modesty, sincerity and simplicity.

Sept 16, 1877

The last apparition occurs.

1878

After receiving the results of the commissions to examine authenticity of the apparitions, Bishop Filip Krementz promoted the publication in German and in Polish of the study by Father Franciszek Hipler entitled "The Apparitions of Our Lady in Gietrzwald to the Catholic People According to the Official Documents".
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Old February 8th, 2016, 11:01 PM   #2049
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Domen123 View Post
Not everyone would agree, for example the authors of this book (published in 2013) think differently:

Azar Gat, Alexander Yakobson,
"Nations: The Long History and Deep Roots of Political Ethnicity and Nationalism",
Cambridge University Press, 2013:
I'd be delighted then to hear these historians explaining why did it happened so that the Warmiaks - to the large degree - refused to be the part of Polish nation.

And even more so about the Masurians
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Old February 9th, 2016, 11:52 AM   #2050
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Viele grüße aus Deutschland/Almanya'dan selamlar!

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Old February 9th, 2016, 02:54 PM   #2051
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Since 2004 Poland is facing another wave of mass migrations, mostly of Polish "Brits" from Opole, Podlaskie, Podkarpackie and Warmian-Masurian Voivodeships.

Source

Quote:
Warmiaks, Masurians
Well, Germany is a rich multi-cultural state, so why not...Viele grüße aus Deutschland/Almanya'dan selamlar!


...but, joking aside. I think that many Mazurians would've refused to be part of the Polish nation since the 1870s, while Warmiaks since the 1900s (bearing in mind they voted for Polish nationalists in 1893).

German federal election (1907)

Source

BTW, Polish state was never as good as its neighbours in ethnic minorities assimilation...

Polish legislative election (electoral districts where representatives of ethnic minorities won), 1922


Map showing areas which could be considered - from ethno-linguistic perspective - Polish in the early 1900s

Source

Poland in 1136


Helmold of Bosau - "Chronica Slavorum" (late 12th century) - Chapter 1, "About the Division of the Slavs":
"(...) Numerous are Slavic nations living along the coast of the Baltic Sea. (...) Around this sea dwell many nations; namely the Danes and the Swedes, who are called Normans by us, and who occupy the northern coast. (...) Southern coast is inhabited by Slavic nations; first of them are the Russians; then come the Poles who have Prussians to the north of them, Czechs to the south of them and those, who call themselves Moravians and Sorbs. (...) [Slavic] nations are embelished by the sign of Christ. Already for a long time Rus belongs to the believing countries. And Rus is called Ostrogard by the Danes (...) The same country is also called Hunigard, because it is believed that there the Huns had their original seats. And the capital city of this country is Kiev. I have no idea which missionaries converted Ruthenians to the holy faith. But I know for sure one thing, namely that - as it seems - in their customs they are similar to Greeks rather than to Latinists. And the Rus Sea [Black Sea] is a short water bridge to Greece.

(...) Bohemia has a king and warlike knights; they have a lot of churches and the people are dedicated to religious practices. Bohemia is divided into two bishoprics - Prague and Olomouc. Poland is a great country of Slavic people; it borders - as they say - with Ruthenia. It is divided into eight bishoprics - Gniezno, Poznań, Włocławek, Płock, Cracow, Wrocław, Lubusz [Lebus] and Wolin. In the past Poland had kings, but now it is ruled by dukes. The kinds of weapons and the methods of combat used by the Poles are the same as those of the Czechs [Bohemians]. Called to war, Poles are brave in battle (...)"

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Old February 9th, 2016, 05:32 PM   #2052
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mruczek View Post
I'd be delighted then to hear these historians explaining why did it happened so that the Warmiaks - to the large degree - refused to be the part of Polish nation.

And even more so about the Masurians
it's human nature, people often side with the nation/ethnicity that provides them with the best security and quality of life. and as for the Brits of today, the most amount of sunshine. We have had a huge influx of ethnic British and Irish over the last 2 years. Reasons: weather, cost of living.
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Old February 12th, 2016, 12:36 AM   #2053
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbanista1 View Post
it's human nature, people often side with the nation/ethnicity that provides them with the best security and quality of life. and as for the Brits of today, the most amount of sunshine. We have had a huge influx of ethnic British and Irish over the last 2 years. Reasons: weather, cost of living.
What are the weather conditions in Poland that are preferable to those of the British Isles?
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Old February 12th, 2016, 06:14 AM   #2054
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much less rain, more sun, fewer storms, nice mix of relatively benign seasonal changes.
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Old February 13th, 2016, 06:30 PM   #2055
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much less rain, more sun, fewer storms, nice mix of relatively benign seasonal changes.
Are we still talking about Canary Islands?

Weather in PL and UK is nearly identical and so is small talk about weather while waiting for a lift Warmia/Mazury aren't the exception, although the region is few degrees colder than Western Poland.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
...but, joking aside. I think that many Mazurians would've refused to be part of the Polish nation since the 1870s, while Warmiaks since the 1900s (...)
To begin with, most of Mazurians (and probably also most of Warmiaks) didn't even feel as the part of the Polish nation in the first place. So they simply were Warmiaks/Mazurians. When the question of wider auto-identification emerged, they simply became Germans as most of them didn't even know that there's alternative.

The other question is, what would they do if they knew that there was alternative.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
(bearing in mind they voted for Polish nationalists in 1893).
They didn't vote "Polish nationalist", but simply the Polish faction in the Reichstag.
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Old February 13th, 2016, 07:29 PM   #2056
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Warmia/Mazury
I bet you meant Prusy
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Old February 13th, 2016, 08:52 PM   #2057
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mruczek View Post
Are we still talking about Canary Islands?

Weather in PL and UK is nearly identical and so is small talk about weather while waiting for a lift Warmia/Mazury aren't the exception, although the region is few degrees colder than Western Poland.
sorry my learned friend. but you are right that the climate is similar, maritime but with some differences. The average annual temp in England is 9.7 C whereas in Poland it is 8.5 C. In recent years, the averages have gone up for Poland especially which has seen an average temp. increase of 3-5 C in the last 30 years.

Average rainfall is 854 mm in England and 600 in Poland almost 42% more in England.

Average amount of sunshine is harder to figure for Poland, couldn't find total number so did a composite of major regional centres. So for Poland I got 1620 whereas England 1492.7.

So there are differences and probably greater or lesser differences depending on where you are.
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Old February 16th, 2016, 03:06 PM   #2058
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In the southern part of Warmia (Olsztyn/Allenstein, Reszel/Rößel) Roman Catholic priest Anton von Wolszlegier from the Polish Party won against Justus Rarkowski from the Centre Party, while largely assimilated Masurians voted for the Conservative Party. The Conservative Party was elected by majority of Masurians since 1884. Districts which were part of pre-1772 Poland (+ Upper Silesia) voted for the Polish Party, albeit German "Drang nach Osten" and anti-Polish policies resulted in some exceptions to this rule.
Allenstein/Olsztyn & Reszel/Rößel (Warmia) election results in 1912


Source

Sensburg/Mrągowo & Ortelsburg/Szczytno (Masuria) election results in 1912


Source

And election results in neighbouring territories (Rosenberg/Susz & Löbau/Lubawa, Stuhm/Sztum & Marienwerder/Kwidzyn)...


Source



Source

In Memel-Heydekrug region, which was later detached from East Prussia by the Treaty of Versailles, Lithuanian Party won 31,5% of votes in 1912 (source), so less than Polish Party in Southern Warmia, Powisle, parts of Oberland, but more than Polish Party in any region of Masuria.
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Old February 20th, 2016, 10:57 AM   #2059
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Nieszawa was founded west of the Dybów Castle (15th century) as an initiative of Polish king Władysław II Jagiełło. The settlement received municipal rights in 1425, becoming Nowa (New) Nieszawa, Nieszawa or Dybowo. It existed in this place until 1462. The name was an association with an earlier settlement, located 3 km further to the west (at present Mała Nieszawka), where previously the first Teutonic Order’s castle on Polish lands was built in first half of the 13th century and subsequently demolished after signing of the Treaty of Melno in 1422.

This „second” Nieszawa developed dynamically, benefiting from its location on the bank of the Vistula river, only one kilometer away from the walls of Teutonic town of Toruń (Thorn). This favourable location and rising income from river trade became reasons of socioeconomic tension between the Kingdom of Poland and Teutonic Order. After the rebellion of Toruń’s townspeople against the Teutonic rule and in appreciation of their involvement in the Thirteen Years’ War (1454–66), Polish king Casimir IV Jagiellon gave out a decree — according to the will of Toruń’s townspeople — to demolish the competitive economic centre at Nieszawa. The king simultaneously decided to relocate the city 32 km upstream of Vistula, where Nieszawa exists to this day.

Diebaw/Nessaw

Source

BTW, the location of Zantyr/Zanther (see post #1998), easternmost settlement founded by Swietopelk II, according to the same map.


Nieszawa (1425-1462)










The residence of Stanisław Ciołek (1382-1437), bishop of Poznań, the Royal Secretary and vice chancellor of king Władysław Jagiełło was located in Nieszawa.
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Old February 24th, 2016, 01:17 AM   #2060
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Mruczek, the thing is that Poles apart from being a nation, are clearly also an ethno-linguistic group (such a "two in one" thing).

I'm not sure why you have such difficulties with understanding this.

For example Kurds are definitely one ethnic group, but are not one nation. As it seems, currently there exist two Kurdish proto-nation-states, one in Syria and one in Iraq, they have no desire of unification into one state and are quite hostile to each other - according to kmat from historycy.org:

http://www.historycy.org/index.php?s...c=113550&st=90

Quote:
Originally Posted by kmat
Nie istnieje jakaś wyrazista pankurdyjska świadomość. Mamy obecnie dwa kurdyjskie parapaństwa (w Syrii i Iraku), bez żadnych tendencji zjednoczeniowych, nastawione do siebie niezbyt przyjaźnie.
===============================

As for Warmiaks - maybe you want to talk with a Warmiak, Mruczek?

On dws.org.pl there is a Warmiak user, Marlog (he lives mostly in Germany but has Warmiak relatives in Poland, in Olsztyn, too):

http://www.dws.org.pl/memberlist.php...profile&u=8819
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