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Old April 14th, 2016, 09:09 PM   #2101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
Parts of the former camp were uncovered during construction of the S7 Expressway.

And that is Tannenbergdenkmal, excellent example of totalitarian monumentalism, which commemorated Tannenberg Battle (1914). Built in 1930s as a museum and burial vault of marshal Hindenburg. After evacuation of Hindenburg's remnants German sapper blown up the complex in Jan '45.



Red circle is the remnants of Hindenburg's Mausoleum. And "1" ("Cmentarz jeńców wojennych") is cemetery of inmantes of Stalag Hohenstein. The location of Stalag is visible on the map.

As we can see, all it is very close to the expressways' junction Olsztynek Zachód (Olsztynek West). Had this Mausoleum survived, it would be extremely monumental landmark on the crossroads.

I must say that I'm puzzled. As a democrat and enemy of totalitarian regimes of every colour and creed I really think that all the ideology behind this Tannenbergdenkmal was appaling and worse yet - dangerous for Europe and the whole world.

On the other hand, as a person born and bred in the ex-German cultural landscape I must say that I'm really amazed by this Nazi monumental architecture. How Dennis Hopper was kind enough to say in "True Romance": "I find this shit fascinating"

Just in case you've never heard it (6'42''):
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Old April 15th, 2016, 12:37 AM   #2102
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The Tannenberg memorial wasn't "Nazi architecture" as it was already built in the 1920s. And it was also not intended to serve as Hindenburgs mausoleum as he never wanted to be buried there but at Gut Neudeck.
Though the Krüger brothers were also quite popular architects during the NS rule, the style of the Tannenberg Monument is more of modern (Neue Sachlichkeit) monumentality than the typical NS neoclassicism.
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Old April 15th, 2016, 05:27 PM   #2103
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Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
An interesting Principal Component Analysis (PCA) comparison of autosomal DNA]
As I see they made all science from one man? Firstly need to more data about that, because we don't have to forgot about trade routes. Migration, even small always existed.

- Eastern Slavs are more genetically simmilar to Balts because most of them live on former lands of Balts. About 5 century AD Slavs started to displace Baltic culture form that areas.
- Possible that current Lithuanians absorbed many Prussians, Curonians, Semigalians who withdrew from own lands after Crusaders occupation. That could be same from eastern lands.

Baltic Hydronyms

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Old April 15th, 2016, 06:06 PM   #2104
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Firstly need to more data about that, because we don't have to forgot about trade routes. Migration, even small always existed.
About 40 Wielbark genomes are almost ready. Their Y-DNA is being sequenced next.
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Old April 15th, 2016, 09:16 PM   #2105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saxonia View Post
The Tannenberg memorial wasn't "Nazi architecture" as it was already built in the 1920s.
Thanks for correction. Seems that the architects anticipated events because building blended wonderfully

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saxonia View Post
Though the Krüger brothers were also quite popular architects during the NS rule, the style of the Tannenberg Monument is more of modern (Neue Sachlichkeit) monumentality than the typical NS neoclassicism.
Although having developed from different ideals, they're both parts of very same artistic taste that run in 1920s and 1930s across the Europe.
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Old April 25th, 2016, 12:37 AM   #2106
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Results of German 1910 census in County Allenstein (Olsztyn) of East Prussian region of Warmia (Ermland):

Part 1: http://images38.fotosik.pl/283/cbdee81e52817d89.jpg

Part 2: http://images41.fotosik.pl/283/dd62392a43e5aca1.jpg

Part 3: http://images48.fotosik.pl/287/96e033e63ab7def0.jpg

Part 4: http://images48.fotosik.pl/287/35e594748632f961.jpg

Column 2 - name of Gemeinde:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gemeinde

Column 9 - total population

Column 13 - German-speakers

Column 18 - Polish-speakers

Column 23 - Polish-speakers*

*The division for 2 languages: "Polish" (spoken by Catholics) and "Masurian" (spoken by Protestants) was artificial.

It was pretty much the same language.

================================

When it comes to earlier years, according to the book by von Haxthausen (who quoted 1825 census), there were:

Name der Kreise - deutsche / polnische / lithaunische:

Kreis Allenstein - 4927 / 25530 / -


At that time censuses did not yet distinguish category "Masurian".

Last edited by Domen123; April 25th, 2016 at 12:43 AM.
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Old April 25th, 2016, 12:53 AM   #2107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Depeched View Post
As I see they made all science from one man? Firstly need to more data about that, because we don't have to forgot about trade routes. Migration, even small always existed.

- Eastern Slavs are more genetically simmilar to Balts because most of them live on former lands of Balts. About 5 century AD Slavs started to displace Baltic culture form that areas.
- Possible that current Lithuanians absorbed many Prussians, Curonians, Semigalians who withdrew from own lands after Crusaders occupation. That could be same from eastern lands.

Baltic Hydronyms

https://smp2014lt.ugdome.lt/smpa_lt/...rie_A01769.jpg
It seems that Balts are not a single group (which divides into East Balts and West Balts), but that there were Balto-Slavs as a single group, who then split into three groups (not two) - East Balts, West Balts and Slavs (with West Balts being kind of "intermediate" between East Balts and Slavs).

Check here the post by user Parastais (he is from Latvia IIRC):

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...l=1#post152762

Quote:
[4] Kortlandt, Frederik (2009), Baltica & Balto-Slavica, p. 5, Though Prussian is undoubtedly closer to the East Baltic languages than to Slavic, the characteristic features of the Baltic languages seem to be either retentions or results of parallel development and cultural interaction. Thus I assume that Balto-Slavic split into three identifiable branches, each of which followed its own course of development.
Note that the term "Balts" itself is a recent one - it was coined during the 19th century.

If you check Medieval sources - including German or Scandinavian ones - they usually didn't distinguish between Slavs and Balts.

Even in year 1801 German historian Johann Reitemeier in his "Gesch. der preussischen Staaten..." wrote that Old Prussians were Slavs.

Saxon historian Helmold von Bosau in the 12th century in his "Chronica Slavorum" also classified Prussians as one of Slavic nations.

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Old April 25th, 2016, 02:31 PM   #2108
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Recently, I read "The Duchy of Warsaw, 1807-1815: A Napoleonic Outpost in Central Europe" by Jaroslaw Czubaty. It seems that the Duchy of Warsaw was most ethnically homogeneous Polish state since the Piasts' Poland. According to the census of 1810, the decided majority (83%) of the 4,334,000 inhabitants of the Duchy of Warsaw were ethnic Poles.

Area: 157,194 km²
Total population (1810): 4,334,00
Poles: 83%
Jews: 7%
Germans: 6%
Lithuanians and Ruthenians: 4%

The overwhelming majority of the population were Roman Catholics. Among the remaining religious and confessional groups, the most prominent, apart from Jews, were Lutherans (8.3%). In a country that was overwhelmingly rural, the greatest concentrations of urban population, amounting to 18.6% of the whole, were located in Warsaw, Poznan and Bydgoszcz Departments. In these departments the urban population was 24% to 25.5%. Main cities of the Duchy were Warsaw, Poznan, Kalisz, Torun, Lublin, Krakow and Sandomierz.

Map of the Duchy of Warsaw (1811)

Source

10 groszy coin (minted in the Duchy of Warsaw)


"Der Telegraph" (1806) about organising Polish troops, e.g. from a former Pomeranian voivodeship by Trapczynski and Malbork/Marienburg voivodeship by Lipinski.


In 1812, the Duchy of Warsaw put into the field an army of nearly 100,000 soldiers, more than the Army of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth ever numbered.


A selection of paintings showing the events of 1806-1809 (Krakow, Torun, Gdansk and Poznan)





On 6 November 1806, generals Dabrowski and Wybicki arrived in Poznan, enthusiastically greeted by locals singing "Poland Is Not Yet Lost". "Poland Is Not Yet Lost" was one of the most popular patriotic songs in the duchy, stopping short of becoming that entity's national anthem.

Triumphal gate designed by Jakub Kubicki erected in 1809 (Warsaw)


List of the Sejm members in 1811















Source

First session of Central Government established by Poles in Galicia (1809)

Source

Galicia was not incorporated into the Duchy of Warsaw in spite of local support.

The land of my other half's ancestors, ethnocultural region known as Kociewie, as well as other parts of Eastern Pomerania were under Polish administration between 1806 and 1807. These territories were ceded to Prussia under the terms of the treaty of Tilsit (1807).

An interesting letter...


...and...


...and one more...


...and about Silesia...



-----------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Domen123 View Post
Note that the term "Balts" itself is a recent one - it was coined during the 19th century.
That's correct.

Interestingly, some early Polish chroniclers, such as Wincenty Kadlubek called Prussians "Gets". Bolesław I the Brave was known as "Regni Sclavorum Gottorum sue Polonorum". Gallus Anonymous speaks of the Sarmatians as Getae – probably meaning the Prussians. The Greater Poland Chronicle speaks of the Getae as Russians. The Chronicle of the Priest of Dukla discusses the Goths basically as a variant of Slavs. Various Frankish Annals (Borna duke of the Guduscani) refer to certain Slavic tribes in the Balkans as Goths. The original Lithuanian cognate for the Belarusians is gudai.

BTW, Ptolemy wrote: "The Greater Venedae races inhabit Sarmatia along the entire Venedicus bay (...) Lesser races inhabit Sarmatia near the Vistula river. Below [heading North from] the Venedae are the Gythones (...) Among those we have named to the east: below [heading North from] the Venedae are the Galindae, the Sudini (...)".

Soon we should know if the ancient "Gythones" were genetically related to the Prussians, and WTH were these "Venedae".

Ibrahim ibn Ya’qub about the language of the Prussians (ca.965 AD):
Quote:
Mieszko is bordered to the east by the Rus and to the north by Prussia. The inhabitants of Prussia live on the shore of the Surrounding Sea [east of the Vistula]. They have their own language, and do not know the languages of their neighbours.
The language of the Prussians was similar to Yotvingian and Lithuanian according to the Polish chronicler Jan Dlugosz (1415-1480):
Quote:
The Yotvingian people reside in the North, bordering with Mazovia, Rus and Lithuania; [Yotvingians] have a language greatly similar to the language of Prussians and Lithuanians, and understandable to them. The tribes are wild and warlike, so hungry for glory and renown that a dozen of them fought with a hundred enemies encouraged only by the hope and knowledge that, after their death, their compatriots would honour them with songs of their heroic deeds. This character led to the demise of the Yotvingians, as small groups were defeated by more numerous units and virtually all were killed because of their inability to flee from such unequal battles.
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Old April 25th, 2016, 07:47 PM   #2109
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About 40 Wielbark genomes are almost ready. Their Y-DNA is being sequenced next.
"Almost", we will have to wait few months (until Autumn 2016?) for the publication.

But in May 2016 (in 3 weeks), a paper about most ancient Europeans will be published:

Svante Pääbo, "Population genomics of Upper Paleolithic Europe"

While on 29 April (Friday) everyone can watch online this conference on ancient DNA:

https://carta.anthropogeny.org/event...uman-evolution

It will include for example this lecture on the peopling of Europe:

https://carta.anthropogeny.org/event...lation-history

Quote:
Ancient European Population History (Johannes Krause)

Ancient DNA can reveal pre-historical events that are difficult to discern through the study of archaeological remains and modern genetic variation alone. Our research team analyzed more than 200 ancient human genomes spanning the last 10,000 years of Western Eurasian pre-history.

We find direct evidence for two major genetic turnover events at the beginning and at the end of the Neolithic time period in Europe.

Our data provide strong support of a major migration of early farmers spreading from Anatolia starting around 9000 years ago bringing agriculture and domestic animals to Europe. Following their arrival, early farmers genetically admix with indigenous Europeans in the course of the coming 3000 years.

At the end of the Neolithic period, around 5000 years ago, we find the first genetic evidence for another major migration event of people from the Pontic Steppe, north of the Black Sea, into the heartland of Europe. The newcomers practice pastoralism, are highly mobile, due to the widespread use of horses, wheels and wagons and they may be responsible for the first spread of plague among human populations in Eurasia.

We find that all modern European populations today are a genetic mixture of steppe pastoralist, early farmers and indigenous European hunter-gatherers in varying proportions. We furthermore find that due to genetic mixture and local biological adaptation there are major changes in human phenotypes such as eye color, skin color and the ability to digest milk sugar through the course of the last 10,000 years.
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Old April 26th, 2016, 11:56 AM   #2110
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del

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Old April 27th, 2016, 09:14 PM   #2111
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Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
Recently, I read "The Duchy of Warsaw, 1807-1815: A Napoleonic Outpost in Central Europe" by Jaroslaw Czubaty.
Księstwo Warszawskie ain't Prussia.
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Old April 29th, 2016, 09:41 AM   #2112
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Księstwo Warszawskie ain't Prussia.
It kind of is - it was created entirely from Prussian land. Warsaw was also part of Prussia.

Borders of Prussia (blue) and Austria (red) in year 1795, after the 3rd Partition of Poland:



Source of the map: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdpuTqZC8t8

Austrian land was added to the Duchy of Warsaw only after a victorious war vs. Austria:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish...93Austrian_War

Prussia acquired most of pre-1772 Polish lands west of the Bug River in years 1772-1795:



Duchy of Warsaw got back most of Prussian Partition, except for Pomerelia and Warmia:



Legend to the map above:

1 + 2 + 3 = Polish territory before the Partitions

3 = remained in Germany after World War 1
2 = formed a Free City after World War 1
1 = returned back to Poland after WW1

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Old April 29th, 2016, 05:53 PM   #2113
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That's a shame that borders after last partition didn't last until I world war. I mean most of current Polish borders would have prussian and austrian inheritance instead of russian.
So actually Napoleonic wars finally ended bad for us because they reshaped "our" borders.
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Old April 29th, 2016, 06:25 PM   #2114
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That's a shame that borders after last partition didn't last until I world war. I mean most of current Polish borders would have prussian and austrian inheritance instead of russian.
So actually Napoleonic wars finally ended bad for us because they reshaped "our" borders.
Indeed. Also more numerous ethnic Polish population within the Kingdom of Prussia = less efficient Germanization policies.

There were migrations between regions, but Poles who tried to migrate to areas of Prussian Partition from Austrian or Russian Partitions (or from Congress Kingdom) were being rejected back behind the border (because they didn't have Prussian citizenship) - see "Rugi pruskie":

Rugi pruskie (Prussian deportations): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_deportations

With more Poles having Prussian citizenship, inter-regional migrations would be easier.

People naturally tend to migrate from more densely to less densely populated regions, as long as they are allowed to do so.

Prussian Partition was less densely populated than Russian-controlled Congress Kingdom and Austrian-controlled Galicia.

Population density as of year 1914 (map by Eugeniusz Romer):



Last edited by Domen123; April 29th, 2016 at 06:49 PM. Reason: 1914 not 1916, but the map was made in 1916
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Old April 29th, 2016, 06:40 PM   #2115
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And now ith borders of provinces & of states outlined for better visibility:

http://s32.postimg.org/mtz48b8er/Bor..._provinces.png


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Old April 29th, 2016, 07:34 PM   #2116
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It kind of is - it was created entirely from Prussian land. Warsaw was also part of Prussia.
But you are aware that this topic is about area settled once by indegenous Prussian population? I.e. East Prussia/ Ostpreußen/ Rytų Prūsija/ Prusy Wschodnie/ Восточная Пруссия, not the Kingdom of Prussia, Staat of Prussia in German Second Reich, Staat of Prussia in Weimar Republic and so on. It is kind a clearly stated in the topic of the thread.

Leave this offtopic. If someone wants to read about East Prussia, then one doesn't want to read about Warsaw or Płock. There are separate threads about Warsaw.
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Old April 29th, 2016, 07:49 PM   #2117
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I concur. This thread is about region called Prusy in Polish. Not about German Prussia who simply stole the name. Warsaw is in Mazowsze not in Prusy.
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Old April 29th, 2016, 08:03 PM   #2118
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Indeed. Have you heard about Pruthenia before?:

http://pruthenia.pl
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Old April 29th, 2016, 08:22 PM   #2119
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I have but no more than that. Thanks for the link, will check that deeper shortly. Usually followed http://pruskihoryzont.blogspot.pl/ but last activity was on Sep 11 last year (ironically).
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Old May 1st, 2016, 02:25 AM   #2120
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I concur. This thread is about region called Prusy in Polish. Not about German Prussia who simply stole the name. Warsaw is in Mazowsze not in Prusy.
The thread is about East Prussia lit. Ostpreußen. Thats clearly a german toponym.
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