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Old September 10th, 2012, 03:25 PM   #221
vilniusguide
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Originally Posted by david993 View Post
"ethnic" lands mostly inhabited by Poles
Thank You, this really explains a lot for me.
Actually, elves came to gmina Punsk in the 90s and made people 85% Lithuanians on "lands mostly inhabited by Poles". I am sorry to forgot this
This also explains the case of Vilnius, Lviv, Gdansk, Eastern Prussia. There were only Poles.

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Originally Posted by markus1234 View Post
Or better let's stop this debate. I have more interesting things to do, than arguing about such topics.

Good morning, sunshine, it is me, who came to Former East Prussia/ Ostpreußen/Rytų Prūsija/ Prusy Wschodnie/Восточная Пруссия. Places, cities, heritage thread, started offtopic about Vilnius and Lviv and about Nazis, and began provoke and insult Lithuanians, who were putting pictures of the heritage of former Eastern Prussia.
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Old September 10th, 2012, 03:29 PM   #222
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Actually from 1.09.1939 to 08.05.1945

After Poland had been overrun, a government-in-exile (headquartered in Britain), armed forces, and an intelligence service were established outside of Poland. These organizations contributed to the Allied effort throughout the war. The Polish Army was recreated in the West, as well as in the East (after German invasion of the Soviet Union).

Poles provided crucial help to the Allies throughout the war, fighting on land, on the seas and in the air.

Notable was the service of the Polish Air Force, not only in the Allied victory in the Battle of Britain but also the subsequent war in the air. Polish ground troops were present in the North Africa Campaign (siege of Tobruk); the Italian campaign (including the capture of the monastery hill at the Battle of Monte Cassino); and in battles following the invasion of France (the battle of the Falaise pocket; and an airborne brigade parachute drop during Operation Market Garden) + Battle of Berlin and many others.

Some Polish contributions were less visible, and most notably included the prewar and wartime decyphering of German Enigma machine codes by cryptologists Marian Rejewski and his colleagues. The Polish intelligence network also proved to be of much value to the Allied intelligence.

etc.
So don't make a fool of yourself ...

Polish contribution to World War II
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_...o_World_War_II
Amen. Now I see, how I was blind. Actually, it is Poles who won the war and saved the World from Nazism. You got a little bit of attention, now may we go back to the topic of the thread, please?
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Old September 10th, 2012, 05:08 PM   #223
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Originally Posted by vilniusguide View Post
Amen. Now I see, how I was blind. Actually, it is Poles who won the war and saved the World from Nazism. You got a little bit of attention, now may we go back to the topic of the thread, please?


"It is impossible to defeat an ignorant man in argument."
William G. McAdoo
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Old September 10th, 2012, 05:37 PM   #224
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"It is impossible to prove for Poles, that there are more other Nations in the World with their own cultures, traditions, that they also did something, created something, contributed to something, were somehow important, won something, if they were not Poles. If you try, You are doomed to fail, as there always be Poles around the corner with their arguments on how "that man was Polish; that city was actually Polish; that land was always actually Polish; Poles were more important,; actually this victory/war was won by Poles; actually, that culture and traditions were created by Poles; actually all was created by Poles and for Poles, actually this thread is about Poland and Poles, created for Poles and so on..."."

Vilnius D. Guide

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Old September 10th, 2012, 05:41 PM   #225
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"It is impossible to prove for Poles, that there are more other Nations in the World with their own cultures, traditions, that they also did something, created something, contributed to something, were somehow important, won something, if they were not Poles."

Examples?? I didn't see anyone (besides you) who is so ignorant in this thread.
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Old September 10th, 2012, 06:43 PM   #226
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Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
"It is impossible to prove for Poles, that there are more other Nations in the World with their own cultures, traditions, that they also did something, created something, contributed to something, were somehow important, won something, if they were not Poles."

Examples?? I didn't see anyone (besides you) who is so ignorant in this thread.
Exactly, ignorant, nationalistic, polakozherca, what's more?
This is the reason why I abandoned my plan to make a thread about "1920-1939 architecture of Vilnius" (also the one in Polish section) and it it more likely, that I will not show here Klaipėda photos as there is simply no need to present something for people, who will bark at me later, that my parents and grandparents were collaborators and handymen of Hitler or some megalomaniac stuff about Lithuanian capital, e.g. that quot. "I am not direct descendant of the people of GDL and have nothing to do with Vilnius, should feel like guest in my capital", like I was told in another thread, after showing simple pictures from Vilnius Old Town.
This thread is dead, since usurped and run down by Poles, so listen to Richard Cheese instead of my photos.
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Old September 10th, 2012, 07:11 PM   #227
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The reason all this started was because Polish forummers felt slighted by the description of the history of this region, which marginalized Poland's contribution. We are sensitive to this, because the destruction of a people starts with such marginalizing, degrading propaganda like calling Poles "Iroquios" or claiming anything good they accomplished was really just German, it’s not that simple.
The other problem is that people like Poles, Ukrainians and Lithuanians have been behind the Iron Curtain for 50 years and were taught their own version of history.
I'm sure Lithuanians and Ukrainians feel to some extent like Poles, living in the shadow of a much bigger neighbour - Poland and Russia, respectively, who always claims anything great they achieved was not theirs. Poles can't deny the German contribution in Wroclaw and elsewhere and Lithuanians can't deny Polish influence in their country as uncomfortable as it is - it's the only way forward. We can’t deny the huge influence Lithuania had on our history. But when some Lithuanians write that we were allied with Hitler, that’s too much.
Although the world has changed, Germans have, Poles, Ukrainians and Lithuanians have, those who were at the centre of the horrors of WWII still don't believe it can't happen again. Especially people like me and RS UK-PL who are the first/second generation of Poles born to people who survived atrocities and death camps, we were raised with the reality of what happened in these places. Members of my family survived Bergen-Behlsen and Auschwitz.
When we come on these threads to defend our history, we don't do it to say that Lithuanians or Ukrainians have achieved nothing, only Poles have or that Germans and Lithuanians are evil, but we need to be careful and respectful of everyone here and above all the truth, about the facts.
The generations talking on this forum are responsible for nothing that happened then, but we have the responsibility to speak truthfully, respectfully or just don't say anything at all.
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Old September 10th, 2012, 07:32 PM   #228
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Ignorance leads to unnecessary arguments. Get your fact straight before talking about certain things. That's all i am asking for.

I am simply tired of pages long "Poland strong" against "Germany superior" debates in threads about former German lands.

The facts are pretty clear and totally acceptable for both sides. One just needs to be a little bit more open minded.

Nobody here shold deny the tremendous Germanic contribution (to architecture, urbanisation, industry, art, wealth) in Poland and Ostpreußen/Lithuania. And nobody should deny the tremendous Germanic contribution to the destruction of (architecture, urbanisation, industry, art, wealth) in Poland and Ostpreußen/Lithuania. Easy ?

I hope so, because then you should understand the other side a little bit better.

Last edited by markus1234; September 10th, 2012 at 07:45 PM.
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Old September 10th, 2012, 09:08 PM   #229
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Er... any pictures, please?
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Old September 10th, 2012, 09:15 PM   #230
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ENOUGH!!!

Please can anyone post any picture?
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Old September 10th, 2012, 09:26 PM   #231
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No.

Let those small, filthy dogs bark. For they can't reach the proud Polish eagle!

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Old September 10th, 2012, 09:38 PM   #232
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eimangel View Post
I don't know if punk did originate in East Prussia, but I think this song is very suitable to listen when reading this thread. Its called "Kill the pole" by Dead Kennedys. I really love the chorus of this: Kill kill kill the pole, kill kill kill the pole, kill kill kill the poooole tonight. Awesome

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgpa7...e_gdata_player
I like the rythm!
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Old September 10th, 2012, 10:09 PM   #233
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No.

Let those small, filthy dogs bark. For they can't reach the proud Polish eagle!

why bother talking to him anyway, he admits he's ei mangel - maybe that's what his mother calls him ...you know afterwards you know
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Old September 10th, 2012, 10:18 PM   #234
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Everything Ok with your sight there? My last comment was a reply to the user '437.001'.
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Old September 11th, 2012, 12:44 AM   #235
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Can't you guys continue this bitch fight in the skybar or on dlm? Would be nice to see some photo's of former East Prussia
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Old September 11th, 2012, 01:09 AM   #236
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Can't you guys continue this bitch fight in the skybar or on dlm? Would be nice to see some photo's of former East Prussia
+1!!!
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Old September 11th, 2012, 02:38 AM   #237
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del

Last edited by markus1234; September 11th, 2012 at 03:24 AM. Reason: link does not work, sorry
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Old September 11th, 2012, 08:31 AM   #238
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Well, I initially thought I'd maybe let it slide, but I actually can't refrain from giving feedback to some unfounded comments.

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Originally Posted by vilniusguide View Post
Poles were Stalin's (happy? ) buddies and occupants.
And statement like that comes out from the member of a nation, which has twice received Vilnius/Wilno Region from Soviet hands?

First time was in 1920, when Poland was at war with Soviets. See this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet%...n_Peace_Treaty

"The treaty also contained a secret clause allowing Soviet forces unrestricted movement within Soviet-recognized Lithuanian territory for the duration of Soviet hostilities with Poland; this clause would lead to questions regarding the issue of Lithuanian neutrality in the ongoing Polish-Soviet War."

Needless to say that Poland certainly did not recognise this treaty.

So Lithuanians allied with Bolsheviks, whereas, had Poland lost the Polish-Soviet War (1919-21), there would've been the end of independent Lithuanian state established after 1918. Yuck!

Second time was in Oct 1939, after Poland was defeated. Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet%...istance_Treaty

In modern times Lithuanians (of Baltic origin) had never managed to win the ethnically Polish city & region of Vilnius/Wilno on their own - neither won it in a battle or by way of economic or demographic development. It was always given to you from Soviet hands at the expense of Poland.

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Occupied Belarusian, Ukrainian and Lithuanian territories were given to their true owners, but Stalin gave them territories they did not had in 1939.
Lithuanian & Belarussian territories occupied? Hahaha, so do you want to question the existence of the state called Grand Duchy of Lithuania?

I know what bothers you, kids. It is the fact that the Balto-Ruthenian elites of Grand Duchy of Lithuania (GDL) had chosen to polonise themselves, as they considered Polish language and culture as more prestigeous.

As, for example, Czesław Miłosz said himself: "My family in the sixteenth century already spoke Polish, (...) so I am a Polish not a Lithuanian poet."

And in modern era (after the creation of nation states) the descendants of those noble families (Radziwiłł, Sapieha, etc.) by and large chose Poland as their homeland, which they worked and fought for.

Also, the 'fathers' of (Baltic) Lithuanian nations from early XX cent. did quite a bit of harm to you by implying that Lithuanians (of Baltic origin) are one and only holders of the legacy of GDL.

Well, you're not. The GDL was a multicultural state with a Ruthenian majority, whose elites decided to polonise, so more kinship can be claimed by Belarussians and Poles, and not the people, whose ancestors in GDL times were called Samogitians.

I think some contemporary Lithuanian and non-Lithuanian historians (like Norman Davies) have given you a bit of lecture in this regard.

Last edited by ja.centy; September 11th, 2012 at 08:44 AM.
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Old September 11th, 2012, 08:39 AM   #239
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Nice spew. Congrats
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Old September 11th, 2012, 10:35 AM   #240
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Originally Posted by markus1234 View Post
[provocative]Lithuanians were Hitler's buddies.
That's a little harsh don't you think?

The Lithuanians were fine with stealing Memel/Klaipėda from their German "buddies" in 1923 and Hitler was equally happy to steal the region back from his Lithuanian "buddies" fifteen years later.

And yes, most Lithuanians did indeed welcome the Germans as liberators in 1941 but let us not forget that that welcome was preceded by a year of harsh Soviet rule during which time over 20,000 Lithuanians were either murdered or exiled to Siberia.

And, as if that wasn't enough, in the final days before the German arrival the NKVD proceeded to murder their remaining prisoners before fleeing the country. The sight of those victims, most of whom had been horribly mutilated before death, was witnessed by much of the Lithuanian populace mere hours before the German arrival.

So yeah, most of them were pretty damn happy to see the Germans roll into town.


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Originally Posted by markus1234 View Post
The way I read that is: The German SS orchestrated that horrible massacre with the assistance of some Lithuanian volunteers.

That's hardly the same as saying "The Lithuanians" did it.


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Originally Posted by markus1234 View Post
and after the cold war Lithuanians ended up with a bigger country than they had in 1939, thx to the German invasion of Poland (Vilnius).
But not so much bigger than the one they had in 1919


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Originally Posted by markus1234 View Post
To make is short, Lithuanians have a much different sentiment about German heritage than Poles.[/provocative]
Of course they do. Human nature being what it is, people tend to judge others based on their own experiences with them.

It's not about being right or wrong. That's just the way it is.

.

Last edited by Judge Roy Beam; September 11th, 2012 at 11:52 AM.
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