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Old September 11th, 2012, 11:43 AM   #241
Godius
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moderators, please do something about this nonsense.
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Old September 11th, 2012, 12:54 PM   #242
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Nonsense starts on page 1 already. Just concentrate on posting photos and stop this sorry debate about historic facts and myths. It leads to nothing.

new thread----> http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...2#post94988702

ps:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge Roy Beam View Post
That's a little harsh don't you think?
Yes, it may sound harsh but i am of course not talking about "all" Lithuanians, Germans, Jews or Poles. I am talking about individuals and groups in those societies and their different sentiments towards history (German heritage).

Last edited by markus1234; September 11th, 2012 at 03:20 PM.
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Old September 11th, 2012, 05:21 PM   #243
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markus1234 View Post
[provocative]Why should Poles do it ?

Lithuanians were Hitler's buddies. Lithuanians slaughtered Polish and Jewih civilians during WWII and after the cold war Lithuanians ended up with a bigger country than they had in 1939, thx to the German invasion of Poland (Vilnius).

To make is short, Lithuanians have a much different sentiment about German heritage than Poles.[/provocative]
So, you agree with me that the Lithuanian part looks the best today. Great!


Quote:
Originally Posted by markus1234 View Post
Under the Polish crown Danzig (first of all) traded Polish grain to Western Europe. Poland was not (mainly) a "market", Poland was the "fuel" for Danzig. The market was Holland for example. Danzig was not kind of a Germanic hanseatic "island", it was (the most important) part of the Polish Vistula trade route. An other important city was Kazimierz Dolny for example or Zamosc.

Prussians ultimately stopped the whole procedure and Danzig became poor and marginalized. That's why there was not much of 19'th century architecture at all in Danzig.
Oh, fuel... how prosaic. I still prefer simple economic explanations. They bought grain and sold it. They were the most important harbor, and they had something like a monopoly. In Prussian times the city lost this monopoly and competed with Stettin and Königsberg, Prussias other big harbors. That's all. Nothing Polish, Germanic or Prussian, just simple economics.
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Old September 11th, 2012, 05:30 PM   #244
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2 x agreed.

In the Danzig case, just a matter of "semantic" differences (see Schopenhauer quote). History of Danzig is as clear as it gets, one just needs to read some books.

History of Germany on the other hand is not as clear, because there were "always" Germans who profited and Germans who suffered at the same time. Just like my family, which ended up in Poland after WWII while other Germans enjoyed their "Wirtschaftswunder" life. And thus one should always try to see the whole story from different perspectives.

Last edited by markus1234; September 11th, 2012 at 06:46 PM.
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Old September 11th, 2012, 11:56 PM   #245
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Why did your family get stuck on the wrong side of the postwar Polish border?

I was under the impression that the only Germans permitted to stay were Upper Silesian coal miners or quasi German "Lake Poles" from Southern East Prussia.

Was that the case?
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Old September 12th, 2012, 12:41 AM   #246
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Some German families were needed to keep the industry going. That's why they stayed in Silesia (back then it was not really clear for our families that Silesia becomes part of Poland for the rest of their lifes).

The worst time (esp. for women and children) was in 45 and right after the war when the Red Army front came to Silesia (most of them weren't really Russians but from Asia and Caucasus). Later on (50's) everyone knew who was German and there weren't any serious incidents between Polish Silesians and Germans because the life was so shitty that everyone tried to survive 1st. and pol.Silesians/Germans had to work together. Poles had access to food (from Polish villages) and Germans for example had a Singer sewing machine in their house and made clothes for Poles...this is how life went on back then. One should also add that many (more liberal) Poles from the Lviv region came to Silesia after the war, which also helped to deal with each other.

False German (Austrian/Prussian) ambitions hurt our German family in the same way like the Poles, and that's why sometimes i am reacting allergically to some "great Germania" statements/sentiments on this board.

Last edited by markus1234; September 12th, 2012 at 01:33 AM.
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Old September 12th, 2012, 05:28 AM   #247
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Not sure if you ever heard of this film, it's an obscure independent UK production released in 2006, but it captures that period better than most any other film I've seen. More importantly, it does so without resorting to the usual tired old cliches that we're so used to enduring.

The setting for all but the final WWII scenes is in Lower Silesia.

Joy Division (2006) (fan tribute highlights)




Joy Division (2006) (entire movie)



Be advised: Given your family's history, you may well find some of this difficult to watch.

On a brighter note, the scenes depicting early 60's London are quite well done as well.

.

Last edited by Judge Roy Beam; September 12th, 2012 at 05:54 AM.
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Old September 12th, 2012, 11:44 AM   #248
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markus1234 View Post
Some German families were needed to keep the industry going. That's why they stayed in Silesia (back then it was not really clear for our families that Silesia becomes part of Poland for the rest of their lifes).

The worst time (esp. for women and children) was in 45 and right after the war when the Red Army front came to Silesia (most of them weren't really Russians but from Asia and Caucasus). Later on (50's) everyone knew who was German and there weren't any serious incidents between Polish Silesians and Germans because the life was so shitty that everyone tried to survive 1st. and pol.Silesians/Germans had to work together. Poles had access to food (from Polish villages) and Germans for example had a Singer sewing machine in their house and made clothes for Poles...this is how life went on back then. One should also add that many (more liberal) Poles from the Lviv region came to Silesia after the war, which also helped to deal with each other.

False German (Austrian/Prussian) ambitions hurt our German family in the same way like the Poles, and that's why sometimes i am reacting allergically to some "great Germania" statements/sentiments on this board.
Das ist ja eine unheimlich interessante Geschichte!

Do you live in the area that I mention in post #202?
If so (or not), are you (still) able to read and/or speak german?
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Old September 12th, 2012, 12:23 PM   #249
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Typical case of Stockholm Syndrome.
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Old September 12th, 2012, 12:35 PM   #250
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aachener Mädelstraße View Post
Das ist ja eine unheimlich interessante Geschichte!

Do you live in the area that I mention in post #202?
If so (or not), are you (still) able to read and/or speak german?
There is a difference between the Silesians in Upper Silesia and Germans that weren't expelled because they were important for the economy. The Silesians in Upper Silesia usually spoke Polish and German. They were called "Autochthons" by the Polish Commies, and they weren't expelled because they were a) important for the Commies as a propaganda instrument (unbroken Polish settlement tradition in Silesia since the Middle Ages) and b) the workforce was needed.
The others were of course Silesians too (until the end of WW2 everyone who lived in Silesia was a Silesian (and was autochthonous)), but they spoke only German and lived also in Middle and Lower Silesia. Since they couldn't speak Polish they weren't "Autochthons" for the Polish Commies but simply Germans.
And some numbers: 200.000 "Autochthons" (this includes Masurians) and ~96.000 Germans (this includes POWs) stayed in Poland.

PS: could we please continue this discussion here:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1545716
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Old September 12th, 2012, 01:30 PM   #251
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markus1234 View Post
i am reacting allergically to some "great Germania" statements/sentiments on this board.
Sounds like Don Quichote fighting against wind mills.
This thread here hasn't been ruined at all by "Great-Germania"-statements. This could be perceived as an insult and it was you, too who insulted a whole nation as "Hitler's buddies".

Oh, those Poles!!!
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Old September 12th, 2012, 01:31 PM   #252
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Sigh... Stockholm!
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Old September 12th, 2012, 02:39 PM   #253
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del

Last edited by markus1234; September 12th, 2012 at 03:11 PM. Reason: EOT
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Old September 12th, 2012, 05:09 PM   #254
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Later I will add more photos, sad that this thread as I see became defence by poles against nothing. Just a lot of spam about "our glory" days. Maybe If we would create simmilar thread about Kurzeme/Kurland, Latvia region, poles would start to talk that this region also was a part of Poland, that Liepaja or Riga was also important Poland cities. People, stop to talk nonsenses about our "Ego".
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>> MY PHOTO THREAD ABOUT LITHUANIA
>>MY PHOTOS FROM KLAIPĖDA (MEMEL)
>>> OLD LITHUANIA



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Old September 12th, 2012, 05:20 PM   #255
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Tilsit. Sovetsk. Kaliningrad district

Photos from thread about this city
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>> MY PHOTO THREAD ABOUT LITHUANIA
>>MY PHOTOS FROM KLAIPĖDA (MEMEL)
>>> OLD LITHUANIA



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Old September 12th, 2012, 05:26 PM   #256
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So, maybe I'll do a little self-promotion Here is my thread about Elbląg/Elbing and Olsztyn/Allenstein:

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1543717

But please, if somebody want to see photos from these cities, you are welcome, but if somebody want to start useless stupid discussions there, better go away
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Old September 13th, 2012, 02:36 AM   #257
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I came across your recommendation and am glad I did. As horrific as the World War 2 was for those who were victims of the Nazis and others we aren't used to seeing is the horror German civilians endured in the closing days of the war.

This film was graphic and disturbing...and engaging.

It doesn't negate Nazi horrors but it's important to understand the whole picture.

It's time for more of these stories to be told...may be then, people will realize that there are rarely any winners in war.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge Roy Beam View Post


Not sure if you ever heard of this film, it's an obscure independent UK production released in 2006, but it captures that period better than most any other film I've seen. More importantly, it does so without resorting to the usual tired old cliches that we're so used to enduring.

The setting for all but the final WWII scenes is in Lower Silesia.

Joy Division (2006) (fan tribute highlights)




Joy Division (2006) (entire movie)




.
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Old September 13th, 2012, 02:04 PM   #258
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eimangel View Post
I don't know if punk did originate in East Prussia, but I think this song is very suitable to listen when reading this thread. Its called "Kill the pole" by Dead Kennedys. I really love the chorus of this: Kill kill kill the pole, kill kill kill the pole, kill kill kill the poooole tonight. Awesome

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgpa7...e_gdata_player
Heavy metal was born there: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Kay_(musician)
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Old September 13th, 2012, 04:48 PM   #259
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That's sickening.

Moreover, if that's the best they can do by way of a "replacement" they never should have bothered.
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Old September 13th, 2012, 05:35 PM   #260
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A picture!

The remains of Fort Number 5 (Formerly Fort König Friedrich-Wilhelm III) on the outskirts of Kaliningrad:



http://mamayevkurgan.wordpress.com/2...ingrad-russia/
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Last edited by DaveyCakes; September 13th, 2012 at 05:44 PM. Reason: Reduced size of photo
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