Former East Prussia/ Ostpreußen/ Rytų Prūsija/ Prusy Wschodnie/ Восточная Пруссия. Places & heritage.

[Beer and Football]

Originally Posted by ja.centy

I think the introduction to this thread is more than basic. IMO, putting down the rich and diverse history of this region in 2-3 sentences is misleading or even shameful.

But I agree to wait and see what else the OP will come up with.

I'd very much like to see more of his pictures myself.

Moreover, I'd like to see them all in the same thread as opposed to being scattered all over the place.

Your mileage may vary.

[Karasek]

Can some moderator please close this thread! Poland didn't get mentioned enough by the OP.

PS: can the moderator please also close all threads about Silesia or Wroclaw until Germans, the Magdeburg Law, Bohemia, the Prussian Reforms, the Weimar Republic, the dialect "Gebirgsschlesisch" and the Schaffgotsch family get mentioned?!
I also have serious doubts about the Krakow threads who don't value the German citizenry in the late Middle Ages and the influence of Austrians enough.

[Beer and Football]

Good points one and all

[RS_UK-PL]

Originally Posted by Beer and Football

Good points one and all

Not really, because all threads about pre-war Polish Lwow, Wilno, Grodno, etc. are closed. BTW, I don't mind to read about German Breslau or Stettin (probably the best time for these cities).

PS. Austrians were responsible for stagnation of economic life in Krakow and decline of the city, so nothing to be thankful for.

[Beer and Football]

Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL

Not really, because all threads about pre-war Polish Lwow, Wilno, Grodno, etc. are closed.

That's not to say that they should have been however.

BTW, I don't mind to read about German Breslau or Stettin

Why then the problem with German Memel or Königsberg?

You're aware, are you not, that the OP's map didn't even include the Gdańsk area.

Except for the Masurian lake district, most of the area shown on his map had an overwhelming German majority extending back to at least the late 1300's and up until 1945-46.


The OP described this area as follows:

Former rich region in eastern side of Baltic sea.
Created on former balts and slavonics lands became one of the most beautiful part of Germany.

That sounds pretty accurate to me.


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[ja.centy]

Originally Posted by Karasek

Can some moderator please close this thread! Poland didn't get mentioned enough by the OP.

Excuse me, the suggestion of closing this thread came out from, let's say, the radical faction of Polish users.

Let the guy continue his valuable work, but vigilant eyes will be around.

Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL

Not really, because all threads about pre-war Polish Lwow, Wilno, Grodno, etc. are closed.

Were they closed indeed? On what basis (if you can recall)?

[RS_UK-PL]

Originally Posted by ja.centy

Were they closed indeed? On what basis (if you can recall)?

Trolling (?), I have no idea. You tell me.

Why then the problem with German Memel or Königsberg?

It's more complicated than you think. Prussians were not German, but Baltic tribes (the same as Lithuanians).

Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Prussians

Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithuanian_people

Masurians and Warmiaks were not German, but West Slavic Poles.

Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masurians

Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warmiak

The combination of Poles, Lithuanians, Prussians and Germans (Teutonic Knights came to these lands after Polish princes invitation in 13th century) inhabited East Prussia.

Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_Crusade

During nationalism wave in 19th-20th century incorrect term German Prussia became common.

---------------------------------------------

Old Prussian language:
Thawe nuson kas tu asse Andangon,
Swintits wirst twais Emmens;
Pergeis twais Laeims;
Twais Quaits audasseisin na Semmey, key Andangon.

Lithuanian language:
Tėve mūsų, kuris esi dangusu,
Švenskis vardas tavo;
Ateik karalystė tavo;
Būki tavo valia, kaip danguje, teip ir ant žemės.

Masurian language (different text, explaining Polish-German relations ):
Modre oczkie mamy,
na sie spoglondamy.
A co kom’ do tego
Kiedy sie Koehamy,

Kashubian language (bonus):
Òjcze nasz, jaczi jes w niebie,
niech sã swiãcy Twòje miono;
niech przińdze Twòje królestwò;
niech mdze Twòja wòlô jakno w niebie tak téż na zemi.

Do you find it similar to German language?

[Beer and Football]

Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL

Why then the problem with German Memel or Königsberg?

It's more complicated than you think. Prussians were not German, but Baltic tribes (the same as Lithuanians).

Agreed and Depeched said as much in his original post when he spoke of German Prussia being "created on former balts and slavonics lands".

I was under the impression that the Teutonic Knights either killed or ran off most the indigenous Prussians (and assimilated the rest) in fairly short order however.

In any case, the cities of Königsberg and Memel were (if not founded by) built, as history today remembers them, by the Teutonic Knights and subsequent German settlers.

Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL

Masurians were not German, but West Slavic Poles.

Agreed. Moreover I acknowledged as much in my previous post

Interesting enough, the majority of them voted to remain attached to East Prussia in a post WWI plebiscite however. Probably for religious reasons.

Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL

The combination of Poles, Lithuanians, Prussians and Germans (who came to these lands after 13th century) inhabited East Prussia.

But again, the Germans outnumbered the others most everywhere except the Masurian lake district and the rural areas of Memelland.

Keep in mind, we're discussing East Prussia, not West Prussia, Poznan or Upper Silesia, all of which were primarily (and in some cases overwhelmingly) Polish in character and composition at all times.

Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL

During nationalism wave in 19th-20th century incorrect term German Prussia became common.

In large part because after 1870 Prussia was a legally constituted part of Bismarck's Germany.

Your point about nationalism poisoning German/Polish relations is well taken however.

I have read that prior to such Poles, Germans, Lithuanians and others residing in what we now regard as Prussia saw themselves as Prussians first and Poles, Germans or whatever second.

The enduring mutual animosity only coming later.

Oddly enough, had the Germans in the West managed to unify in 1848 (without Prussian participation) this comradery, as it were, might well have endured for a bit... possibly even until the present.

Imagine that


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[leszekbombka]

Reakcjonistom z Bonn damy stanowczy odpór!!!

[ja.centy]

On second thought, I deem this thread as a sign of the rising Lithuanian imperialism.

Forza Lietuva!

[RS_UK-PL]

Originally Posted by Beer and Football

I have read that prior to such Poles, Germans and others residing in what we now regard as East Prussia saw themselves as Prussians first and Poles, Germans or whatever second.

That's true. I think that we can continue with more photos, because we've explained more less Prussians ethnicity and history of these lands

[ja.centy]

Originally Posted by Beer and Football

Interesting enough, the majority of them voted to remain attached to East Prussia in a post WWI plebiscite however. Probably for religious reasons.

Just a comment on that plebiscite. As per available sources, there was no fair play from German side, as:
(1) German activists and armed gangs were harassing and terrorising pro-Polish Masurians;
(2) voting cards had the name 'East Prussia' instead of 'Germany', so the voters were choosing between 'Poland' and familiar 'East Prussia';
(3) the voting falsification and manipulation took place (the lists with eligible voters were falsified, pro-German voters were transported to numerous location for multiple vote, etc.);
(4) Poland was at war with the Soviets and situation on the front seemed to be unfavourable for PL at the time, which was used by German propaganda to claim that Poland would be just a 'seasonal state';
(5) German authorities brought in 100k people, mainly from Ruhr Region, who were born in East Prussia before 1905 and had more than 20 years.

More on the topic here (Eng) and here (Pol).

[Beer and Football]

Interesting read. The details here being quite similar to those of the Upper Silesian plebiscite.

Given the extremely lopsided final tally in this instance however, the outcome would IMO have been the same (albeit much closer) even had the plebiscite been held a year later and under less intimidating circumstances.

The fact that the the vast majority of Masurian Poles were - like the Prussian Lithuanians to the North - German speaking Lutherans was no small factor here.

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[Karasek]

Masurians were, historically, first and foremost staunch Protestant Prussians, very loyal to the Prussian-led empire, and with a mixed Slavic-German identity. This became quite clear after WW2, when almost no one decided to stay in Poland.

[JValjean]

This is a very interesting thread that I'll visit on a regularly basis for sure. But some Poles are really annoying ...

[Beer and Football]

Originally Posted by Karasek

Masurians were, historically, first and foremost staunch Protestant Prussians, very loyal to the Prussian-led empire, and with a mixed Slavic-German identity. This became quite clear after WW2, when almost no one decided to stay in Poland.

Hmmm... I wasn't aware that most of them left. I do know that - unlike the Lithuanian Prussians - they weren't expelled in mass after the war. Although I've read that quite a few of them fell afoul of the postwar Communist authorities for continuing to speak German.

[Karasek]

Originally Posted by Beer and Football

Hmmm... I wasn't aware that most of them left. I do know that - unlike the Lithuanian Prussians - they weren't expelled in mass after the war. Although I've read that quite a few of them fell afoul of the postwar Communist authorities for continuing to speak German.

From the ~300.000 Masurians ~160.000 decided to stay after WW2, but most of them left the country later, and today ~5.000 still live in the region.

PS: isn't it interesting that we constantly talk about a minority of less than 10% here? That's silly!

[RS_UK-PL]

Originally Posted by Karasek

From the ~300.000 Masurians ~160.000 decided to stay after WW2, but most of them left the country later, and today ~5.000 still live in the region.

PS: isn't it interesting that we constantly talk about a minority of less than 10% here? That's silly!

Some of the reasons behind emigration of many Masurians (and Warmiaks):
- bad relations between locals and newcomers
- poor material conditions of life in postwar Poland
- German "revisionists" persuading Masurians to refuse verifications as Poles
- language barrier (Imperial German officials in 1870s restricted the usage of languages other than German in Prussia's eastern provinces, so younger population didn't know Polish language)
- aggressiveness of Poland's Catholic Church
- Red Army raped, tortured and murdered unnecessarily many of the innocent inhabitants of East Prussia (often families of Masurians...who would have stayed in a place like this).

At the beginning of the 20th century, the southern part of East Prussia was marked as an ethnically Polish area with a number of Poles estimated at 300,000. Number of Poles/Masurians in whole East Prussia was close to 20% of total population (18.39% in 1875).

[Urbanista1]

del

[Karasek]

Masurians in front of the plebiscite monument (11.7.1920 - this land stays German) in Johannisburg, today Pisz/Poland




Terrace of confectionery Schwermer in Königsberg, today Kaliningrad/Russia.



Before WW2 marzipan from Königsberg was a famous as the one from Lübeck, and Schwermer was one of the best known manufacturers. The company was reopened in Bavaria after WW2: http://www.schwermer.de/