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Old March 7th, 2013, 09:42 AM   #501
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzwonsson View Post
In 1910 around 30-40% of the population of the future corridor were German-speaking and it's hard to believe that most of the these people *disappeard* before the 1931 census was held.
Richard Blanke, in his book Orphans of Versailles, described several reasons for the exodus of the German population:
- A number of former settlers from the Prussian Settlement Commission who settled in the area after 1886 in order to Germanise it were in some cases given a month to leave, in other cases they were told to leave at once (by the end of Prussian Settlement Commission existence, a total of 21,886 German families, 154,704 persons, had been settled).
- Poland found itself under threat during the Polish-Bolshevik war, and the German population feared that Bolshevik forces would control Poland. Migration to Germany was a way to avoid conscription and participation in the war.
- State-employed Germans such as judges, prosecutors, teachers and officials left as Poland did not renew their employment contracts. German industrial workers also left due to fear of lower-wage competition. Many Germans became economically dependent on Prussian state aid as it fought the "Polish problem" in its provinces.
- Germans refused to accept living in a Polish state. As Lewis Bernstein Namier said: "Some Germans undoubtedly left because they would not live under the dominion of a race which they had previously oppressed and despised."
- Germans feared that the Poles would seek reprisals after over a century of harassment and discrimination by the Prussian and German state against the Polish population.
- Social and linguistic isolation: While the population was mixed, only Poles were required to be bilingual. The Germans usually did not learn Polish. When Polish became the only official language in Polish-majority provinces, their situation became difficult. The Poles shunned Germans, which contributed to their isolation.
- Lower standards of living. Poland was a much poorer country than Germany.
- Former Nazi politician and later opponent Hermann Rauschning wrote that 10% of Germans were unwilling to remain in Poland regardless of their treatment, and another 10% were workers from other parts of the German Empire with no roots in the region.

On the other hand, in Silesia, economic factor had major impact on voting and "nationality".


Btw, guess what Lower Silesian city is described by English traveller in a book "A Handbook for travellers on the continent: being a guide to Holland, Belgium, Prussia, northern Germany, and the Rhine from Holland to Switzerland" (1853)?
"... is a city of Slavonic origin, having been occupied by the Poles and Bohemians alternately for 800 years. Poles are very numerous, and their language so prevalent that many of the shop-boards are inscribed with it."

I'll give you a hint
... after the war
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Old March 7th, 2013, 07:27 PM   #502
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Nobody denies Silesia has Slavic origins as nobody dismisses the fact that even after 600 years of being part of the German-speaking world both Polish and Czech minorities had a significant influence on the region. These are well known facts. The tircky part though is that no matter what the language or background, the Silesian culture was pretty much the same across the region.
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Old March 7th, 2013, 09:56 PM   #503
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Originally Posted by Dzwonsson View Post
600 years of being part of the German-speaking world
Well, it depends what part of Silesia you have in mind.

Duchy of Opole and Raciborz fell to the Kingdom of Bohemia in 1532 (again, it was briefly part of the Kingdom of Poland between 1645 and 1666). Eventually like most of Silesia it was annexed by Prussia after the First Silesian War in 1742. The last two dukes of Opole: Nicholas II of Niemodlin and Jan II the Good did not know German at all.

Duchy of Cieszyn was ruled by Piasts to 1653, ending with the death of the last scion Duchess Elizabeth Lucretia, after which the duchy lapsed directly to the Kings of Bohemia, at that time Ferdinand IV of Habsburg. According to the Austrian census taken in 1910, the duchy had about 350,000 inhabitants: 54.8% Polish-speaking, 27.1% Czech-speaking and 18.1% German-speaking.

Answer: "Breslau (Polish: Wroclaw) is a city of Slavonic origin, having been occupied by the Poles and Bohemians alternately for 800 years. Poles are very numerous, and their language so prevalent that many of the shop-boards are inscribed with it."

But it's all history now. Most of the cities have been raised to the ground during WW2 and population chose their nationality by staying in Poland (and helping to rebuild it from the rubble) or moving to Germany.

Last edited by RS_UK-PL; March 8th, 2013 at 12:20 AM.
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Old March 8th, 2013, 01:23 AM   #504
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You're clearly mistaken, sir. All Silesian lands were handed over to the house of Luxemburg (that reigned over the Kingdom of Bohemia between 1310 and 1437) in 1335, which litterally means that the entire region of Silesia consisted of various duchies and free states became part of the Kingdom of Bohemia (and the Holy Roman Empire). But again, the medieval Kingdom of Bohemia has very little in common with the Czech state as we know it today. All major estates within the kingdom such as nobility, clergy, bürgertum and merchanting were dominated by Germans or germanized Bohemians. The medieval Kingdom of Bohemia was clearly part of the German-speaking world (even despite most of its population being Czech-speaking). We have to remember that the Czech (Slavonic) culture was in decline since late Middle Ages until the 19th century!

In 1437 the Kingdom of Bohemia (together with entire Silesia) became part of the Habsburg Empire. In 1526 the Habsurgs divided Bohemia, which eventually lead to Silesia falling under the Habsburg rule, but no longer as a part of the Kingdom of Bohemia. The tricky part about the Duchy of Oppeln-Ratibor is that John, in his last will, handed over the rule of the duchy... to the Hohenzollerns! (Who eventually sold the lands to the Habsburgs in 1552). But, to sum it all up and make it easier to understand:

Oppeln-Ratibor:
1335-1522: Luxemburgs (Bohemia/Holy Roman Empire)
1522-1552: Hohenzollerns (Brandenburg-Ansbach/Holy Roman Empire)
1552-1741: Habsburgs (Austria/Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation)
1741-1871: Hohenzollerns (Prussia)
1871-1918: Hohenzollerns (German Empire)
1918-1933: ------------- (Weimar Republic)
1933-1945: ------------- (Nazi Germany)

Last edited by Dzwonsson; March 8th, 2013 at 01:47 AM.
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Old March 8th, 2013, 01:46 AM   #505
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The following is a list of monarchs who used the title Duke of Opole and controlled the city and the surrounding area either directly or indirectly:

Piast dynasty
1163-1173 Bolesław I the Tall (Bolesław Wysoki), Duke of Silesia at Wrocław
1173-1201 Jarosław Opolski, son, first Duke of Opole
1201 Bolesław I the Tall, again
1201-1202 Henry I the Bearded (Henryk I Brodaty), son of Bolesław, ceded Opole to his uncle
1202-1211 Mieszko I Tanglefoot (Mieszko I Plątonogi), Duke of Racibórz
1211-1230 Casimir I (Kazimierz I), son
1230-1246 Mieszko II the Fat (Mieszko II Otyły), son, followed by his brother
1246-1281 Władysław I
1281-1313 Bolko I, son of Władysław
1313-1356 Bolko II, son, jointly with his brother
1313-1323 Albert
1356-1401 Władysław II, son of Bolko II, jointly with his brothers
1356-1370 Bolko III and
1356-1365 Henry
1396-1437 Bolko IV, son of Bolko III, jointly with his brother
1396-1400 Bernard
1437-1476 Nicholas I (Mikołaj I), son of Bolko IV, jointly with his brother
1437-1439 Jan I
1476-1532 Jan II the Good (Jan II Dobry), son of Nicholas I, jointly with his brothers
1476 Louis and
1476 Nicholas II (Mikołaj II)

Various dynasties
1532-1543 possession of Brandenburg
1543-1549 Georg Friedrich of Brandenburg Hohenzollern (Jerzy Fryderyk Brandenburski)
1549-1551 Ferdinand of Austria (Ferdynand Austriacki)
1551-1556 Isabelle and Sigismund Zapolya (Izabela and Zygmunt Zapolya)
1556-1558 Georg Friedrich of Brandenburg Hohenzollern (Jerzy Fryderyk Brandenburski)
from 1558 possession of the Habsburgs of as kings of Bohemia, sometimes governed by dukes from other dynasties

Princes of Transylvania
1597-1598 Sigismund Bathory (Zygmunt Batory) - Nephew of Polish king
1622-1625 Gabriel Bethlen (Gabriel Bethlen)

House of Vasa
1645-1648 Wladislaus IV of Poland (Władysław IV Waza) - King of Poland
1648-1655 Charles Ferdinand Vasa (Karol Ferdynand Waza)
1655-1666 John II of Poland (Jan Kazimierz Waza) - King of Poland

House of Habsburg
1666-1742 possession of the House of Habsburg as kings of Bohemia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_of_Opole

Last edited by RS_UK-PL; March 8th, 2013 at 01:54 AM.
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Old March 8th, 2013, 01:55 AM   #506
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
The following is a list of monarchs who used the title Duke of Opole and controlled the city and the surrounding area either directly or indirectly:
Piast dynasty
1163-1173 Bolesław I the Tall (Bolesław Wysoki), Duke of Silesia at Wrocław
1173-1201 Jarosław Opolski, son, first Duke of Opole
1201 Bolesław I the Tall, again
1201-1202 Henry I the Bearded (Henryk I Brodaty), son of Bolesław, ceded Opole to his uncle
1202-1211 Mieszko I Tanglefoot (Mieszko I Plątonogi), Duke of Racibórz
1211-1230 Casimir I (Kazimierz I), son
1230-1246 Mieszko II the Fat (Mieszko II Otyły), son, followed by his brother
1246-1281 Władysław I
1281-1313 Bolko I, son of Władysław
1313-1356 Bolko II, son, jointly with his brother
1313-1323 Albert
1356-1401 Władysław II, son of Bolko II, jointly with his brothers
1356-1370 Bolko III and
1356-1365 Henry
1396-1437 Bolko IV, son of Bolko III, jointly with his brother
1396-1400 Bernard
1437-1476 Nicholas I (Mikołaj I), son of Bolko IV, jointly with his brother
1437-1439 Jan I
1476-1532 Jan II the Good (Jan II Dobry), son of Nicholas I, jointly with his brothers
1476 Louis and
1476 Nicholas II (Mikołaj II)

Various dynasties
1532-1543 possession of Brandenburg
1543-1549 Georg Friedrich of Brandenburg Hohenzollern (Jerzy Fryderyk Brandenburski)
1549-1551 Ferdinand of Austria (Ferdynand Austriacki)
1551-1556 Isabelle and Sigismund Zapolya (Izabela and Zygmunt Zapolya)
1556-1558 Georg Friedrich of Brandenburg Hohenzollern (Jerzy Fryderyk Brandenburski)
from 1558 possession of the Habsburgs of as kings of Bohemia, sometimes governed by dukes from other dynasties

Princes of Transylvania
1597-1598 Sigismund Bathory (Zygmunt Batory) - Nephew of Polish king
1622-1625 Gabriel Bethlen (Gabriel Bethlen)

House of Vasa
1645-1648 Wladislaus IV of Poland (Władysław IV Wasa) - King of Poland
1648-1655 Charles Ferdinand Vasa (Karol Ferdynand Waza)
1655-1666 John II of Poland (Jan Kazimierz Waza) - King of Poland

House of Habsburg
1666-1742 possession of the House of Habsburg as kings of Bohemia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_of_Opole
Untrue.



As you can clearly see in 1526 Silesia became absolutely independent from the Kingdom of Bohemia. But I quite don't understand your point, what are you trying to prove? That Oppeln-Ratibor wasn't part of the German-speaking world because it had a Piast duke?
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Old March 8th, 2013, 02:00 AM   #507
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Quote:
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Untrue.
So correct an existing article on Wikipedia...
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Old March 8th, 2013, 02:03 AM   #508
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Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
So correct an existing article on Wikipedia...
Yeah, Wikipedia isn't that much of a reliable source.

edit: let's get back to East Prussia! Any pre-war pics of of Elbing?
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Old March 8th, 2013, 02:17 AM   #509
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzwonsson View Post
Nobody denies Silesia has Slavic origins as nobody dismisses the fact that even after 600 years of being part of the German-speaking world both Polish and Czech minorities had a significant influence on the region. These are well known facts. The tircky part though is that no matter what the language or background, the Silesian culture was pretty much the same across the region.
And what about Serbs ? That is our north land, greetings from south Serbia and Belgrade

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Old March 8th, 2013, 02:36 AM   #510
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Elbląg/Elbing

1912


http://www.fotos.bilderblog.org

City hall




http://www.fotos.bilderblog.org
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Old March 8th, 2013, 02:58 AM   #511
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When I showed my mom (who grew up in Elbing) similar pre-war pictures she couldn't believe it's really Elbing. Of course, she heard various stories, mostly told by her grandparents, about how great the city used to be, but still, she was shocked about how much damage has been done.
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Old March 8th, 2013, 11:10 AM   #512
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzwonsson View Post
Yeah, Wikipedia isn't that much of a reliable source.
Maybe you're right and maybe you're wrong. Because I don't know much about the history of Silesia, I'm not sure if this map is correct...


But like I wrote before, it's all history now. Cities were rebuilt by Poles (and Polish money) and Poland became one of the most homogeneous countries in the world with 93,9% of ethnic Poles living in it and large ethnic Polish groups in other countries. I know that some Germans are still jealous that Poland did a great job with Gdansk, Wroclaw, Warsaw, Poznan, etc. but I hope that your cities will be someday beautiful as well (Dresden is a good example).

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Old March 8th, 2013, 01:40 PM   #513
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I would not say "jealous" because outside of the reconstructed city centers there was not much effort to rebuild too. Even more than in the GDR old living quarters were removed for industrial architecture. When you look at the citys by google map or bing, you can see that there is not much left of the former large gründerzeit living quarters.
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Old March 8th, 2013, 01:59 PM   #514
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saxonia View Post
there is not much left of the former large gründerzeit living quarters
Actually, I'm not a big fan of historicist styles myself. I would rather see more faithful Gothic, Renaissance, Baroque reconstructions than architecture from Industrial Revolution times (when architects were just reproducing historic styles or artisans).

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Old March 8th, 2013, 02:12 PM   #515
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
Maybe you're right and maybe you're wrong. Because I don't know much about the history of Silesia, I'm not sure if this map is correct...
It's correct, between 1646-1666 Oppeln-Ratibor was a pawn of the Vasa house (reigning over Poland-Lithuania at the time). Ferdinand II, the German-Roman emperor handed over the duchy as a dowry of his daughter Cäcilia Renata after she married the Polish-Lithunian ruler, Wladislaw IV. The Vasas didn't dispose of a direct rule over the duchy as it remained part of the German-Roman empire. In 1666 Jan Kazimierz, who exprencied great hospitality from both the Roman-German emperor and the de facto ruler of Oppeln-Ratibor, count Franz von Oppersdorff during the Deluge, handed over the rights to the duchy back to the Austrian Habsburgs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
But like I wrote before, it's all history now. Cities were rebuilt by Poles (and Polish money) and Poland became one of the most homogeneous countries in the world...
Agreed.
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Old March 8th, 2013, 04:19 PM   #516
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Wolf children - so-called children came to Lithuania from East Prussia after occupation in 1945, during famine 1945-1947.

"We boarded the train, we arrived to Lithuania, walked from village to village asking for food, stayed for elderly people, because their children were already grown up. Father of family knew German language. So I stayed with them.."
One of a thousand examples in Lithuania after war

Some of them, with "new" families were deproted to Siberia


http://www.onwar.com/maps/wwii/eastf...aps/b6p69r.jpg

Film in Lithuanian about "Wolf children"

http://www.lrt.lt/mediateka/irasas/1841
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Old March 10th, 2013, 12:14 AM   #517
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Velau/Vėluva/ Znamensk. Kaliningrad d.
Photo about 1930


Музей города Кёнигсберг
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Old March 16th, 2013, 09:20 PM   #518
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Frombork/Frauenburg. Poland





Soviet army



Facebook: Frombork
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Old March 16th, 2013, 11:42 PM   #519
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Frombork/Frauenburg today

View of the cathedral hill from the quay

author: Piotr Kowalski

Frombork cathedral

author: Maciej Szczepańczyk

Memorial of German refugees

author: Nikater

The new Bishops' palace

author: Tomek Zakrzewski

The bishops' old palace

author: Tomek Zakrzewski

Town

author: Tomosatomos

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Frombork
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Old March 17th, 2013, 12:13 AM   #520
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Quote:
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Frombork cathedral

author: Maciej Szczepańczyk
Very similar Cathedral was built in Vilnius, rebuilt by Vytautas after 1418 fire destroyed previous building.
Here how it looked:

archyvai.lt
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