Former East Prussia/ Ostpreußen/ Rytų Prūsija/ Prusy Wschodnie/ Восточная Пруссия. Places & heritage.

[Urbanista1]

Originally Posted by Karasek

From the ~300.000 Masurians ~160.000 decided to stay after WW2, but most of them left the country later, and today ~5.000 still live in the region.

PS: isn't it interesting that we constantly talk about a minority of less than 10% here? That's silly!

20% is closer to the actual number, but this is after hundreds of thousands of Germans were sent to colonize the area. Still, it was easier for them to leave, enforced cultural Germanization pre-war along with desperate conditions in post-war communist Poland, made going to the west so much better and easier in the end, but still so many remained is interesting. If I was in their shoes I would go too. Many of these Masurians are beginning to rediscover their ethnic and cultural roots prior to assimilation and this could prove interesting for this region as they are eligible for Polish citizenship (and Polish law recognizes dual citizenship).

For the same reason hundreds of thousands of Poles keep leaving for the west now, because it's better economically and the scars of the last war and the communist occupation still make life more difficult.

[JValjean]

Originally Posted by Urbanista1

From what I understand, this was not part of Germany but Prussia, well maybe Nazi Germany, so is this thread celebrating Nazi Germany as well.

And I think that you know and understand a very little of the history of this part of Europe!

The following map shows the area of the German language before WWI and Germany in its borders from 1871 to 1918


Source: pl.wikipedia.org

little hint: East-Prussia is the territory on the upper right side of this map!


German Confederation / Związek Niemieck (1815 - 1866)


Source: en.wikipedia

The territories in light blue became part of the German Confederation from 1848 to 1851

Germany after WWI (The Weimar Republic)



Source: wikipedia

[JValjean]

Originally Posted by Urbanista1

but this is after hundreds of thousands of Germans were sent to colonize the area. Still, it was easier for them to leave, enforced cultural Germanization

Not just Germans also, Dutch, Austrians, lots of French protestants and even some Scots have been sent to East Prussia and they all became loyal Prussian citizens.

How do you think the Sorabes could get over several hundreds of years of enforced cultural Germanization?

[JValjean]

http://canitz.org/images/kb-kneiphof-1937.png

For centuries, Königsberg was the metropolis of eastern Germany. The city played an important role in Europe’s international relations and became a meeting point of diverse historical and cultural traditions, as well as the home for people of various nationalities and religious beliefs. Thus, the Huguenot settlers (French Protestants) set up many enterprises and whole industries there. Poles, Lithuanians, English and Dutch; merchants from every European country; artisans and learned men of every nationality not only coexisted peacefully: they also respected each other and together they built up their city. They helped form the world’s first Protestant state (1525) – the Duchy of Prussia with Königsberg as its capital.

http://canitz.org/.../history-of-konigsberg

[Judge Roy Beam]

Originally Posted by Urbanista1

yes, this is pretty tricky, could you imagine if the idea for this thread were to spread world-wide and even include Palestine and Israel, we're talking lotta hot heads. Interesting pics, but name is provocative. So maybe this thread should be renamed. From what I understand, this was not part of Germany but Prussia, well maybe Nazi Germany, so is this thread celebrating Nazi Germany as well. Not a good idea in any case. By the same token Polish Wilno and Polish Lwow threads should be reopened, assuming everyone behaves. These cities were predominantly Polish for centuries.

I guess a lot of this depends on where you get your history.

Over here in the USA I was taught that from the 1300's through 1945/46 the predominate language in East Prussia was German.

Moreover, from 1870 until the Kaiser's abdication in 1918 East Prussia was a part of the German Empire. Old maps from that period usually refer to the same as simply "Germany".

From 1919 until January of 1933 it was part of the Wiemar Republic, also referenced on period maps as "Germany".

And then finally from 1933 until 1945 it was administered by the subsequent Hitler government which, on USA maps at least, continued to be referred to as "Germany".

Nearly all of the old buildings pictured in this thread were constructed during East Prussia's German period and the commonality of architectural style now spanning across three international borders is not the result of mere happenstance.

This thread is supposed to be about regional architecture in what was at the time of it's origin one single predominately German speaking region.

As such I see no problem with it's title.

[Urbanista1]

Prussians were not entirely Germans, many ethnic group resided in what is referred to as East Prussia here prior to Germanization and the influx of other peoples. Don't forget Germany is a very young state, since 1871 I believe. but also while we are on the subject of German, just exactly who are the Germans, are they an ethnic, cultural or linguistic group. According to Swiss geneological research group Igenea 30% of Germans have slavic roots and only 9% of Germans are purely Germanic. So are the East Prussians German-speaking Slavs or what?

[katsuma]

Originally Posted by JValjean

The following map shows the area of the German language before WWI and Germany in its borders from 1871 to 1918

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._area_1910.png

(...)

And these maps show the area of Polish language in German Empire as at 1900 (according to German sources) and the Polish ethnic range as at 1918 (as per Polish sources).


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sp...0_polnisch.png


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sp...Reich_1900.png


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Be...pa_um_1918.jpg

---

So what are we trying to prove here?

[Karasek]

Originally Posted by Urbanista1

20% is closer to the actual number, but this is after hundreds of thousands of Germans were sent to colonize the area.

You know what? Masurians were settlers too, like the Germans, the Dutch, the Scots, and many others. And they all became *Prussians*, a concept some of you simply don't understand, sorry. And that's why you can't logically explain their actions.

Originally Posted by Urbanista1

Still, it was easier for them to leave, enforced cultural Germanization pre-war along with desperate conditions in post-war communist Poland, made going to the west so much better and easier in the end, but still so many remained is interesting. If I was in their shoes I would go too. Many of these Masurians are beginning to rediscover their ethnic and cultural roots prior to assimilation and this could prove interesting for this region as they are eligible for Polish citizenship (and Polish law recognizes dual citizenship).

Sorry, but in light of the facts it's simply illogical to claim that these poor Masurians were victims of Germanization. Masurians always voted mostly for conservative, often royalist parties (which allegedly wanted to Germanize them). The Polish party usually received just ~2%. In censuses they registered as Masurian, and not Polish, which was also an option. In the plebiscite they voted against Poland, and with almost 100% the result was unambiguous. And when this part of the world became Polish, and they had the chance to live with their fellow Slavs, 98,5% left their home forever and moved to their former "oppressors".
Explaining all this with forced Germanization, pressure and the hardships of Communism doesn't make any sense at all.

[Urbanista1]

del

[Urbanista1]

del

[Judge Roy Beam]

Originally Posted by Urbanista1

But can we refine then who are these East Prussians and are they the only ethnic group that left any archeological or historical landmarks of note, surely the Dutch left their mannerist architectural tradiitons in Gdansk which should be acknowledged, and what about the vernacular architcture of the Masurians and Kashubs.

The Gdansk area isn't included on the OP's map and is presumably outside the realm of both his and the Versailles Treaty's definition of East Prussia.

I agree nonetheless that Masurian and other architecture should be acknowledged as such whenever examples of the same appear here or elsewhere.

But then again, I was under the impression that making observations of that nature was already standard practice and applied to any and all threads on this forum.

Originally Posted by Urbanista1

Late 19th century Prussian style architecture is not only cultural trace worth speaking about here nor the only culture period that is worth discussing in this area. If the author wants to make the case for a German speaking East Prussia, I have yet to hear a convincing case for it.

Nonsense.

Who built the Teutonic castles, the churches that sprang up around them, the walls (now mostly gone) surrounding both and the old towns within those walls?

[JValjean]

Originally Posted by Urbanista1

Prussians were not Germans, many ethnic group resided in what is referred to as East Prussia here prior to Germanization and the influx of other peoples. Don't forget Germany is a very young state, since 1871 I believe. Prussians and Germans did share the same language and culture which merged even more during Hitler's reign of terror.

To discuss seriously on such a basis is ridiculous and senseless. Go and read something about the history of East-Prussia or read at least the posts of others who responded to your posts. Otherwise you’re just spamming!

And no Germans never were an ethnic homogenous group. Different Germanic tribes mixed up in the early Middle Ages with Gallo-Roman people, a fair share of Slavonic folks, Jews, some Baltic people and others. Later the unifying link at the development of the idea of a German Nation was the German language as the bearer of a common culture: header "Kulturnation" …

But why am I answering to your posts you’re stuck in your anti-German and Holy-Poland clichés anyway …

[Depeched]

Allenstein/Olsztyn/Alštynas

current state - Poland















[/IMG]





























I am looking to our one of most powerful enemy castle with Lithuania flag

[Judge Roy Beam]

Nice to see some more pictures in here

Good job!

[Urbanista1]

Originally Posted by JValjean

To discuss seriously on such a basis is ridiculous and senseless. Go and read something about the history of East-Prussia or read at least the posts of others who responded to your posts. Otherwise you’re just spamming!

And no Germans never were an ethnic homogenous group. Different Germanic tribes mixed up in the early Middle Ages with Gallo-Roman people, a fair share of Slavonic folks, Jews, some Baltic people and others. Later the unifying link at the development of the idea of a German Nation was the German language as the bearer of a common culture: header "Kulturnation" …

But why am I answering to your posts you’re stuck in your anti-German and Holy-Poland clichés anyway …

ok, now be careful, I didn't call you names, you don't know me very well and I take exception at any suggestions that I am anti-anything. As for the Holy Poland mindset you accuse me of, every nation including Germany could be considered guilty of such ethno-centric self-glorification, but I'm not above criticizing Poland on the Polish sites very openly.

Regardless, I found your description of what the German nation is very edifying and refreshing. I'm getting to know the German nation more as I have the Polish nation over the last while. We are also a mix of people unified by a concept of Polishness and language of course.

I'm mostly taking offense at the closing of former threads on Polish Wilno and Polish Lwow while allowing threads like this one about German-influenced East Prussia to go forward.

The other issue is that although surviving architectural landmarks do underscore the Teutonic presence of this region, the history of this region is more complicated than that and deserves much more study and understanding. don't want the etymological roots of Prussia neatly subsumed under the term German without some elaboration of the history. Depeched mentioned that this was the most beautiful part of Germany built on former Balt and Slavonic lands and that's it....not so fast.

Originally Baltic tribes inhabited Prussia, who spoke their own a language, which was a Baltic language, Old Prussian that finally died out in 1800's I believe. This language is not be confused with the Germanic Low and High Prussian dialects of German. A lot of the place names in this region and river names are Old Prussian btw which have been slavicized or Lithuanized.

In the 13th century, these Baltic peoples were conquered by the crusading German Teutonic Knights, invited by Poland to christianize tbe pagans and subdue the Prussians since the crusading Knights of Dobrin hired earlier by the Polish dukes of Masovia didn't have much success. A considerable part of these lands was known as Chelmo Land part of a province ruled by Masozian dukes who were Polans that subdued other tribes. It was Conrad 1 of Masovia who enlisted the support of the Knights in subduing the Prussians and in return they were to get Chelmno Land as their fiefdom, but it became the base of their monastic state and later conquest of East Prussia when they turned on Poland, continuously conquering more lands. This is when the Germanization begins, but there was still considerable Polonization from the south as well as extant Prussian tribes, Pomeralians etc and a huge influx later of Dutch, Scottish etc during the Protestant Reformation mixed into the population base. The German Junkers did play a big part as the noble landowning class who led the Ostseidlung Christianization drive into Prussia.

The influence of the knights faded after the Polish-Lithuanian army defeated the Knights at the Battle of Grunwald in 1410 and after the HOLy Roman Emperor cut his support of the kinghts then in 1525 Grand Master Albert of Brandenburg became Duke of Prussia as a vassal of Poland.

From what I read, after the Second Peace of Thorn of 1466, Prussia was split into the western Royal Prussia, a province of Poland, and the eastern part, since 1525 called Duchy of Prussia, a fief of the Crown of Poland up to 1657. These were under the Polish crown until the union of Brandenburg and the Duchy of Prussia in 1618 that led to the proclamation of the Kingdom of Prussia in 1701. So for most of its history up to this point, this area was under Polish rule, but yes, heavy Germanic influence.

This area didn't become part of Germany until Bismarck unites the Germans in 1871and the rest is history, as they say.

[ja.centy]

Originally Posted by Depeched

Allenstein/Olsztyn/Alštynas

current state - Poland

http://img837.imageshack.us/img837/5773/imgp1870a.jpg

Well, well. Look at that little Samogitian scoundrel... 'Current state Poland' for Olsztyn?

And who said that Wilno won't be ours again...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Po...Wilno_1919.jpg
http://pl.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?...20081022164659
http://www.dcstamps.com/wp-content/u...Wilno_1920.jpg

Originally Posted by Depeched

I am looking to our one of most powerful enemy castle with Lithuania flag

http://img848.imageshack.us/img848/8434/imgp2004.jpg

Forza mighty Lietuva!

[uunxx]

Originally Posted by ja.centy

And who said that Wilno won't be ours again...

Who needs Wilno, let's go for Moskwa once again.

[JValjean]

Just for reasons of completion I'd like to post this map that I already tried to post before (which didn't work)

German Confederation (1815 - 1866)


Source: wikipedia

The parts of Prussia that were outside of the German Confedaration became part of it in the years 1848 to 1851. Hitler wasn't involved here.

[JValjean]

An iconic and "famous" landmark of Kaliningrad:

The House of Soviets


Source: wikipedia

[Judge Roy Beam]

Pretty isn't it?

Today it is, of course, the most visible legacy of that city's postwar fate.

But the most profound transformation can no longer be seen.

According to the census of May 1939, Königsberg had a population of 372,164.

Upon surrendering to the Red Army in 1945 approximately 120,000 survivors remained (most having already fled or perished).

Disease, starvation and revenge then took their toll during the ensuing four years leaving only 20,000 to be expelled in 1949-50.

Wikipedia Link

War sucks.



.