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Old April 9th, 2013, 12:52 PM   #661
veresk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roman_P View Post
No. "Green town" would be "Zelenograd", without "sk".
Tradition of city naming, of course. There are no other cities with part "gradsk" because it's absurd.
What exactly absurd about -gradsk?) You just pounce upon naming without any reason)
Before telling all these you'd better read some history facts, e.g. the region was populated not only by Russians, but also Belorussians, Ukrainians, Poles, Lithuanians, people from Central Asia and a lot of other peoples who had carried on war. Thus there was a great influence from other dialects and so on and telling only about Russian traditions is not right.

And one more thing: ZelenoGORsk is ok but ZelenoGRADsk not? I don't see there any logic. I may suppose the ending -sk in this case means belonging.
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Old April 9th, 2013, 01:26 PM   #662
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Originally Posted by veresk View Post
What exactly absurd about -gradsk?) You just pounce upon naming without any reason)
I can tell once more: there is NO such a form in Russian toponymy. There is a typical form grad (which means city), there is an even more typical ending -sk (which derives from -skiy and means, as you fairly said, belonging) but they don't fit together. Their combination has no sense. That makes it absurd.

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Before telling all these you'd better read some history facts, e.g. the region was populated not only by Russians, but also Belorussians, Ukrainians, Poles, Lithuanians, people from Central Asia and a lot of other peoples who had carried on war. Thus there was a great influence from other dialects and so on and telling only about Russian traditions is not right.
Don't be ridiculous, please. Do you mean that the word Zelenogradsk comes from some other language than Russian (mentioning Central Asia is the best part of course )? There are no "gradsks" in Belarus, Ukraine, Poland etc. as well. It's not some dialect influence, it's just poor education and the whole mess (so it might have been someone's typo initially that was later legalized).

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And one more thing: ZelenoGORsk is ok but ZelenoGRADsk not? I don't see there any logic. I may suppose the ending -sk in this case means belonging.
Belonging to whom? To a person called Zelenograd? Well, in that case it would make sense but it's not that.
Toponimy is sort of science with its rules, rather strict sometimes. So, yes, ZelenoGORsk is OK (as well as ZelenoGRAD) but ZelenoGRADsk is not. I'm quite surprised that you don't feel the absurdity of the latter case, I've always thought it's obvious for a native speaker.

(HUGE offtopic we made here by the way)
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Old April 9th, 2013, 01:35 PM   #663
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Roman_P
For native speakers it should be obvious that much more things are possible in the Russian language than in any other language, and creation of new forms also.

It's really an offtopic, i offer to stop this discussion here)
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Тем, кто родился на берегу моря, всегда дует ветер странствий. От него деревья не колышутся, зато души трепещут...
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Old April 9th, 2013, 01:38 PM   #664
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Originally Posted by veresk View Post
Roman_P
For native speakers it should be obvious that much more things are possible in the Russian language than in any other language, and creation of new forms also.

It's really an offtopic, i offer to stop this discussion here)
I don't agree with the first part but quite agree with the second one.
So let's stop the discussion (at least here ).
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Old April 9th, 2013, 02:59 PM   #665
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Re: "Marienwerder to Kwizyn? Marienburg to Malbork? "

Kwidzyn and Malbork, the polish names of Marienwerder and Marienburg have a long history, dating centuries before the end of WWII.
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Old April 9th, 2013, 03:40 PM   #666
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Kwidzyn
First name of the city was Quedin and it was mentioned in 1233. In Second Peace of Thorn/Torun, the city was called Quidzyn and Marienwerder. The name Kwidzyn is used by Poles since the 15-16th century (source: "Lustracja województw malborskiego i chełmińskiego 1565").

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Malbork
The name Malbork or Malborg is used by Poles since the 16th century.
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Old April 9th, 2013, 04:12 PM   #667
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Very strange thinking about German names, there were many town names, as I said, just also translated or pronunciation of old Prussian and Lithuanian town names. Simple example in Kaliningrad d. Former official name Krantz (Zelenogradsk), it is old Prussian and Lithuanian word - krantas, krants which mean shore
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Old April 9th, 2013, 04:41 PM   #668
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greg111 View Post
Re: "Marienwerder to Kwizyn? Marienburg to Malbork? "

Kwidzyn and Malbork, the polish names of Marienwerder and Marienburg have a long history, dating centuries before the end of WWII.
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First name of the city was Quedin and it was mentioned in 1233. In Second Peace of Thorn/Torun, the city was called Quidzyn and Marienwerder. The name Kwidzyn is used by Poles since the 15-16th century (source: "Lustracja województw malborskiego i chełmińskiego 1565").



The name Malbork or Malborg is used by Poles since the 16th century.
Yes, you've made my point. "centuries before WWII" as a basis to retrofit names was clearly a mission to ethnic cleanse rather than simply a return to the ways things always should have been. And it's not transliteration. 300+ years of time passage DOES change things to a permanent status, especially when that 300+ year period was the timeframe in which most development, infrastructure, building, and culture took place. Wars change everything however. No one is claiming such places ought not be Polish in all aspects now, but the notion that the changes were anything but modern day spoils of war is absurd, imho. The Poles won German cities and towns.
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Old April 9th, 2013, 04:53 PM   #669
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The Poles won German cities and towns.
And Soviet Russia won Polish cities and towns.

Last edited by RS_UK-PL; April 9th, 2013 at 05:19 PM.
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Old April 9th, 2013, 05:20 PM   #670
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And Soviet Russia won Polish cities and towns.
Man, don't start this sh..
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Old April 9th, 2013, 05:41 PM   #671
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Man, don't start this sh..
Why not Tarnopol (now Ternopil) founded by Jan Amor Tarnowski in 1540, Zolkiew (now Zhovkva) founded by Stanislaw Zolkiewski in 1594, Stanislawow (now Ivano-Frankivsk) founded by Andrzej Potocki in 1662, etc.
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Old April 9th, 2013, 06:18 PM   #672
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Recently renovated manor house of Graf von Stillfried from 1894 in Wólka Golubska near Ełk/Lyck.









Author: Mieczysław Kalski

More information:
http://www.polskiezabytki.pl/m/obiekt/7067/

Ps. Stillfried family coat of arms.


http://ot-berlin.vpweb.de/Graf-von-Stillfried.html
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Old April 9th, 2013, 06:55 PM   #673
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Let's go to Lithuania

In Curonian spit, Minor Lithuania


Perwelk/Pervalka former small fishermans village, now resort village. Village name came from Lithuanian word "pervilkti", it mean portage. Here was a place where fishermans used to portage boats from bay to sea and on the contrary. The area was annexed to Lithuania in 1923.


http://www.efoto.lt/node/858564 Andrius Jonušas


http://www.efoto.lt/node/858564 Andrius Jonušas


http://www.efoto.lt/node/858564 Andrius Jonušas


http://www.efoto.lt/node/879363 Martynas Uleckas


http://www.efoto.lt/node/569269

Dead Dunes near Pervalka


http://www.efoto.lt/node/924578 Kazys Mikalauskas


http://www.efoto.lt/node/924578 Kazys Mikalauskas
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Last edited by Depeched; April 9th, 2013 at 07:03 PM.
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Old April 9th, 2013, 08:11 PM   #674
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Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
In Silesia, we've seen rather Germanisation of names over the centuries.
Agreed, but it was rather a natural process (with some exceptions e.g. the Kulturkampf or the Nazi period), a matter of incorporating various Polish/Czech names into the German language. There are also many towns and villages that were found during various stages of the German settlement and never really had a Polish name prior to 1945 e.g. Hirschberg or Grünberg that were found respectively in mid 13th and early 14th century and prior to 1945 were known as Hyrcberga and Grynberga in the Polish language.
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Old April 9th, 2013, 09:37 PM   #675
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Agreed, but it was rather a natural process
And we can say the same about the Polonisation process of Kresy. My grandmother's surname is Andrulewicz
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Old April 9th, 2013, 10:23 PM   #676
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The Poles won German cities and towns.
While speaking about Poland "winning German cities", you, dear Germanness-whining fella, may try to upgrade your knowledge a little bit by having a read about:
1/ German eastward expansion in the Middle Ages into the ethnic Slavic & Baltic lands (Ostsiedlung);
2/ the Allies' conferences in Tehran (1943) and Yalta (1945).

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Quote:
Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
And Soviet Russia won Polish cities and towns.
Man, don't start this sh..
Wrong address, man.

See above comment by keepthepast.
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Old April 9th, 2013, 11:25 PM   #677
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So you're basically saying that Breslau or Königsberg were less German becuase historically those areas weren't Germanic? If you were more historically aware you'd know that often it were local Polish rulers who initiated the process and supported German settlement in their domenses.
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Old April 10th, 2013, 12:07 AM   #678
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If you were more historically aware you'd know that often it were local Polish rulers who initiated the process and supported German settlement in their domenses.[/QUOTE]

All the people interested in history know that
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Old April 10th, 2013, 12:42 AM   #679
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So you're basically saying that Breslau or Königsberg were less German becuase historically those areas weren't Germanic?
As a matter of fact, you are wrong. According to available sources, the territory of present-day Poland had been populated by Germanic (but not German) tribes for a few centuries until ca. 500 AD, i.e. before Slavic settlement. Those were the likes of Goths and Vandals, who however originated not from the lands of contemporary Germany, but southern Scandinavia (Gotland, Sweden, etc).

BTW, it is Scandinavia, which is the homeland of Germanic peoples.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_peoples#Genetics

Anyway, I am not going to deny the fact that German language & culture would have been dominant in the cities like Wrocław for a few hundred years, plus that city had been part of Prussia/Germany since mid 18th century, however, what I wanted to express in my above comment directed to keepthepast is that:
1/ the cities, which had belonged to Germany before WW2 and subsequently became part of Poland, are located in the ethnic Slavic & Baltic lands;
2/ it was not Poland, who made decisions on its border shift after WW2, as a result of which Poland actually lost more territory than it acquired (leaving aside the issue of architectural state of the majority of acquired cities).

Therefore, it takes a person with a low level of historical knowledge (or high level of ignorance) to say that "the Poles won German cities and towns".

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If you were more historically aware you'd know that often it were local Polish rulers who initiated the process and supported German settlement in their domenses.
Thank you. I certainly want to become more aware and shall read something more about it then...
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Old April 10th, 2013, 01:14 AM   #680
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As a matter of fact, you are wrong. According to available sources, the territory of present-day Poland had been populated by Germanic (but not German) tribes for a few centuries until ca. 500 AD, i.e. before Slavic settlement. Those were the likes of Goths and Vandals, who however originated not from the lands of contemporary Germany, but southern Scandinavia (Gotland, Sweden, etc).
Wrong about what? Ever heard of the migration period? It doesn't really matter who lived where before that period ended, because those migrations changed the ethnic distribution in many areas of Europe.
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1/ the cities, which had belonged to Germany before WW2 and subsequently became part of Poland, are located in the ethnic Slavic & Baltic lands
England appears to be located in the ethnically Celtic lands, would it therefore be justified if we kicked the English out of England?
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Originally Posted by katsuma View Post
2/ it was not Poland, who made decisions on its border shift after WW2, as a result of which Poland actually lost more territory than it acquired (leaving aside the issue of architectural state of the majority of acquired cities).
Agreed.
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