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Old April 10th, 2013, 01:39 AM   #681
Mruczek
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keepthepast View Post
Yes, you've made my point. "centuries before WWII" as a basis to retrofit names was clearly a mission to ethnic cleanse rather than simply a return to the ways things always should have been. And it's not transliteration. 300+ years of time passage DOES change things to a permanent status, especially when that 300+ year period was the timeframe in which most development, infrastructure, building, and culture took place. Wars change everything however. No one is claiming such places ought not be Polish in all aspects now, but the notion that the changes were anything but modern day spoils of war is absurd, imho. The Poles won German cities and towns.
We're not talking about names existing only long time ago, such as New Amsterdam for NYC but names, which existed parallelly for centuries (not to mention, that apart from German and Polish names there were also Lithuanian or Jewish Yiddish names, such as Poyzn for Poznań). Name "Kwidzyn" didn't disappear in XVI century, but it was used by Poles for Marienwerder throughout the centuries, for example in 1921 (carefully, large size!).

The same situation is with such European cities as Rome (in Polish: Rzym), Milano (in Polish: Mediolan), Munich (in Polish: Monachium), Aachen (in Polish: Akwizgran). It is also quite understandable that Hungarians prefer name Varso over Warszawa and Germans prefer Bromberg instead of Bydgoszcz (Bshshshshshsh). I wouldn't call it ethnic cleansing of the names, it's simply making them more familiar.

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Originally Posted by Dzwonsson View Post
Agreed, but it was rather a natural process (with some exceptions e.g. the Kulturkampf or the Nazi period), a matter of incorporating various Polish/Czech names into the German language. There are also many towns and villages that were found during various stages of the German settlement and never really had a Polish name prior to 1945 e.g. Hirschberg or Grünberg that were found respectively in mid 13th and early 14th century and prior to 1945 were known as Hyrcberga and Grynberga in the Polish language.
Completely unpronounceable. Besides, what's wrong with Jelenia Góra and Zielona Góra? These are exact translations of German Hirschberg or Grünberg.
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Old April 10th, 2013, 02:08 AM   #682
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Originally Posted by katsuma View Post
what I wanted to express in my above comment directed to keepthepast is that:
1/ the cities, which had belonged to Germany before WW2 and subsequently became part of Poland, are located in the ethnic Slavic & Baltic lands;
2/ it was not Poland, who made decisions on its border shift after WW2, as a result of which Poland actually lost more territory than it acquired (leaving aside the issue of architectural state of the majority of acquired cities).

Therefore, it takes a person with a low level of historical knowledge (or high level of ignorance) to say that "the Poles won German cities and towns".
Thanks for the comment katsuma. Maybe a language barrier issue for you; "won" in this usage means "obtained" or "received".

And established cultures/states that are in place for 12+ generations and over 300 years, particularly in the late 20th century, are indeed credibly intrenched as the accepted nationality/ethnicity. Claiming semi-ancient ownership simply due to 'what once was' is the silly and proven recipe for conflicts that end up without much gained by anyone. Be careful about calling anyone ignorant until you brush up (meaning get smarter) on the historical facts, politics, and social anthropology of the subject.
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Old April 10th, 2013, 02:48 AM   #683
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Originally Posted by Mruczek View Post
Completely unpronounceable. Besides, what's wrong with Jelenia Góra and Zielona Góra? These are exact translations of German Hirschberg or Grünberg.
Absolutely nothing, I've never said that the renaming policy shortly after the was wrong. What was wrong and should be pointed out is that the Polish authorities tried to pretend as if those Germans names never existed. Also, I don't agree Hyrcberga and Grynberga are unpronounceable, speaking from expiernce Norymberga works just fine.
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Old April 10th, 2013, 09:26 AM   #684
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"over 300 years"

The official East Prussian census of 1910

Of course, the number of Polish-speakers before partitions of Poland and Kulturkampf was much higher than in the census of 1910.
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Old April 10th, 2013, 12:43 PM   #685
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Again, what is your point?
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Old April 10th, 2013, 01:58 PM   #686
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzwonsson View Post
Again, what is your point?
My point is that East Prussia was never exclusively German land and even after Kulturkampf policies Germans couldn't claim it as ethnically German territory (actually, in many areas Germans were just small minority over centuries).

Dear Dzwonsson, you still didn't answer to my question in the following post: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...&postcount=580

Btw, I really hope that all historic monuments, churches, squares, etc. in former East Prussia (and not only there...) will be rebuilt and well preserved. And maybe some new outstanding structures will be erected by Poles (like Basilica of Our Lady of Lichen or Christ the King statue). Also, I've seen a lot of beautiful new builds (palaces, mansions, etc.), when I've been in Warmian-Masurian Voivodeship the last time. Probably within next 50-100 years, some of those new palaces, mansions will become tourist attractions.

Just one question, do you know why New Urbanism is so unpopular in Poland? Most of new Polish towns look like group of huge houses, mansions, palaces without any central square, without roads connecting all the buildings...Just houses in the middle of nowhere.
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Old April 10th, 2013, 05:42 PM   #687
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Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
"over 300 years"

The official East Prussian census of 1910

Of course, the number of Polish-speakers before partitions of Poland and Kulturkampf was much higher than in the census of 1910.
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Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
My point is that East Prussia was never exclusively German land and even after Kulturkampf policies Germans couldn't claim it as ethnically German territory (actually, in many areas Germans were just small minority over centuries).
So what? California is heavily spanish speaking and Mexican ethnicity; that does not lead to the notion that it should not remain California and be part of the USA. The fact that more than one language is spoken is an area and that ethnic customs and cultural habits are maintained simply reflects a diverse and integrated society.

When a state exists for 300+ years as a defined state with investments, infrastructure, politics, cultural and social institutions, and the established citizenship for the entire population in place for many generations, it's disengenuous to claim it isn't what it is.
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Old April 10th, 2013, 06:00 PM   #688
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When a state exists for 300+ years as a defined state with investments, infrastructure, politics, cultural and social institutions, and the established citizenship for the entire population in place for many generations, it's disengenuous to claim it isn't what it is.
Ermland/Warmia was part of Kingdom of Prussia and later Germany between 1772 and 1945 (167 years) and before that it was controlled by Polish Crown for over 300 years. It included cities such as Braniewo, Frombork, Olsztyn, Reszel, Lidzbark Warminski, etc.

Map of Warmia (ruled by Polish king between 1466 and 1772)
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Old April 10th, 2013, 06:25 PM   #689
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Originally Posted by GFM 3D View Post
Schloss Finckenstein East Prussia. Baroque palace built in the early 18th century, destroyed by the Red Army in 1945.




(source)
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...196145&page=73
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Old April 10th, 2013, 06:26 PM   #690
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Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
And maybe some new outstanding structures will be erected by Poles (like Basilica of Our Lady of Lichen or Christ the King statue).
Are you serious? Like Licheń or Christ statue? No, thanks
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Old April 10th, 2013, 06:33 PM   #691
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Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
Ermland/Warmia was part of Kingdom of Prussia and later Germany between 1772 and 1945 (167 years) and before that it was controlled by Polish Crown for over 300 years. It included cities such as Braniewo, Frombork, Olsztyn, Reszel, Lidzbark Warminski, etc.

Map of Warmia (ruled by Polish king between 1466 and 1772)
You really like to show maps, area which was part of Poland 1466-1772, and area which was more "Polish" than "German", but when we try to compare these maps, except Allenstein area, which was more "Polish", was part of Poland in XV-XVIII c. other area which was more "Polish" was always part of Prussia.
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Old April 10th, 2013, 06:44 PM   #692
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Masuria was Polonised by the incoming Masovians after the Old Prussians have been conquered by Teutonic Knights. In 1466 those territories became a fief of Poland (Duchy of Prussia/Prusy Książęce). Because of the influx of Masovians into the southern lakeland, the area started to be known as "Masuria" from the 18th century.
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Old April 10th, 2013, 06:53 PM   #693
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Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
My point is that East Prussia was never exclusively German land and even after Kulturkampf policies Germans couldn't claim it as ethnically German territory (actually, in many areas Germans were just small minority over centuries).
That's true, but it's also true that Poles can't claim this was ethnically Polish territory. It was Masurian. Which back then wasn't the same. Masurians were staunch Prussian royalists for instance who never voted for Polish but always for right-wing German parties, unlike the Poles in Upper Silesia or Greater Poland.
The ultimate irony is that the Polish Commies justified Polands claim on East Prussia with the existence of a autochthon Polish (=Masurian) population... which immigrated to Germany when their land became part of Poland.
History is complicated.
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Old April 10th, 2013, 07:02 PM   #694
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Absolutely nothing, I've never said that the renaming policy shortly after the was wrong. What was wrong and should be pointed out is that the Polish authorities tried to pretend as if those Germans names never existed.
ie, their ethnic cleansing strategy.
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Old April 10th, 2013, 07:28 PM   #695
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Originally Posted by katsuma View Post
1/ the cities, which had belonged to Germany before WW2 and subsequently became part of Poland, are located in the ethnic Slavic & Baltic lands;
Than I should be happy to have the chance to still live in my hometown.
These Argumentations could be copied from this club. http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polski_...85zek_Zachodni
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Old April 10th, 2013, 08:38 PM   #696
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Than I should be happy to have the chance to still live in my hometown.
The number of "Germans" who were granted with Polish citizenship after WW2 was around 1,2 million. Probably your family chose to leave Poland or was forcefully expelled. Today, in Poland there are only 45,000 people who declare solely German nationality (less than number of Poles living in Germany).
Also, about 2,208,000 Poles from Kresy chose Poland in its new borders as their home.
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Old April 10th, 2013, 09:01 PM   #697
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I ma reading a book called Savage Continent by Keith Lowe, a British author. It is an excellent book - very detailed - about all of these topics you are discussing.



http://www.amazon.com/Savage-Contine.../dp/1250000203
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Old April 10th, 2013, 09:18 PM   #698
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Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
Dear Dzwonsson, you still didn't answer to my question in the following post: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...&postcount=580
Perhaps because I wasn't aware of your post as it refers to something I wrote over the course of an other discussion in a different thread. But now that I'm well aware of your reply I'll be happy to respond. In my post from March 10th I was refering to the Holy Roman Empire that had been dissolved before most of the events you described occured, which means no German state could leave (or join) the federation as the Empire no longer existed. I have to admit though that the Greater Poland Uprising of 1794 broke out 12 years before the formal dissolution of the Empire. And here is where things get complicated. All previously Polish lands that were incoporated into both Prussia and Austria during the partitions of Poland were never incorporated into the Empire and remained "external territories" of respectively Prussia and Austria, which means they couldn't leave the federation as they were no part of it.
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Old April 10th, 2013, 09:41 PM   #699
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Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
The number of "Germans" who were granted with Polish citizenship after WW2 was around 1,2 million. Probably your family chose to leave Poland or was forcefully expelled. Today, in Poland there are only 45,000 people who declare solely German nationality (less than number of Poles living in Germany).
Also, about 2,1 million people from Kresy chose Poland in its new borders as their home.
Sources vary substantially on how many "Germans" were allowed to remain in Poland after WWII. Credible sources such as the Polish social scientist Eberhardt put the number at well below 200,000.

I assume you place Germans in quotes because the additional part of the history is that many of the "Germans" who remained in Polish territory were actually Polish speaking peoples of distant German ethnicity who were granted Polish citizenship (many other Germans did not get citizenship until recently). So, these people cannot fairly be counted as true leave behinds. Another segment was forced to remain against their will because of being interred in labor camps. Still another group were allowed to remain because they were Catholic. The number of full-German nationals remaining in Poland after the war is likely insignificant, therefore.
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Old April 10th, 2013, 10:02 PM   #700
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Wrong about what? Ever heard of the migration period? It doesn't really matter who lived where before that period ended, because those migrations changed the ethnic distribution in many areas of Europe.
Wrong about using the terms "German" and "Germanic" as synonyms.

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England appears to be located in the ethnically Celtic lands, would it therefore be justified if we kicked the English out of England?
Well, the descendants of European occupiers from the entire "New World" would have to be kicked out. England is a piece of cake, for that matter.

On a more serious note, again: (a) it is incorrect to speak about heritage of the Recovered Territories (Ostgebiete) with the focus on German legacy only, given the indigenous ethnic status & composition of those lands; (b) it was not Poland who decided on the border shift in 1945.

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Originally Posted by keepthepast View Post
Thanks for the comment katsuma. Maybe a language barrier issue for you; "won" in this usage means "obtained" or "received".
Maybe. But for that (or any other) reason I would suggest you to be more precise next time.

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Originally Posted by keepthepast View Post
And established cultures/states that are in place for 12+ generations and over 300 years, particularly in the late 20th century, are indeed credibly intrenched as the accepted nationality/ethnicity. Claiming semi-ancient ownership simply due to 'what once was' is the silly and proven recipe for conflicts that end up without much gained by anyone.
See my previous replies to Dzwonsson.

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Originally Posted by keepthepast View Post
Be careful about calling anyone ignorant until you brush up (meaning get smarter) on the historical facts, politics, and social anthropology of the subject.
Sure, there is always a room for personal (educational) improvement. And I have come across some really interesting & valuable insights in this thread, but unfortunately not from your side (yet).
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