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Old April 12th, 2013, 11:28 PM   #721
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Originally Posted by katsuma View Post
Well, 'coz I am clever, you know...

Grand Duchy of Lithuania (Balto-Slavic, with the focus on Slavic) =/= contemporary Lithuania (focus on Baltic tribes' heritage).

The city of Wilno/Wilna/Vilna (when in the past was it called Vilnius?) had been ethnically Polish since at least early 18th century.
Ethnically ? Tell me, HOW, WHY and WHEN Vinius (plus region) became ethnically polish? ) XIX mid. - only abour 20 per cent, than, suddenly - all people transformed to...) It is probably the most interesting question...taking into account that Vilnius and region was and is on very poor soil and was not industrialised...maybe Jesus told...or Ostra Brama...cha..In all cases, no logics. Oh yes, tall, blonde, with blue eyes people reminds slavonic people (dont get me wrong, but facts are facts.)



The city of Wilno/Wilna/Vilna (when in the past was it called Vilnius?)

Check out, for instance, old lithuanian literature (since XVI) and you will find.Or thousands of folk songs. We say and write Varšuva, not Warszawa. In lithuanian old folk songs you can find Katkus and not Chodkiewicz (as i know, in Poland you dont have similar war-folk songs). Get the point?
Btw i dont give a sh... how a FEW nobles wrote the name of the city.
Maybe You are smart, but You should know such thing like LINGUISTICS and a bit history (late baptism, it's impat on (national) language development and soon). Differences between slavic and baltic (lithuanian) languages are absolutely abvious. I.e two-voiced -au and slavic -ov (Mindaugas vs. Mindovg).

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Old April 12th, 2013, 11:39 PM   #722
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Originally Posted by Dzwonsson View Post
Which I didn't do. You were refering to ethnically Slavic and Baltic lands (not particularly Polish and Old Prussian), so I refered to Breslau and Königsberg not being less German because of not being ethnically Germanic areas i.e. prior to 1945 Breslau despite being located in an ethnically Slavic area was not less German than for example Hamburg that's located in an ethnically Germanic area.
Which part you don't get?
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Old April 12th, 2013, 11:43 PM   #723
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Old April 12th, 2013, 11:55 PM   #724
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How is it possible that 107,613 Poles fled from Wilno/Vilnius between 1944 and 1948? Ghosts?

And still according to the 2001 census by the Vilnius Regional Statistical Office, there were 18.7% Poles in the Vilnius city municipality...

"Po przyłączeniu polskich Ziem Wschodnich do Związku Sowieckiego, w tym Wilna z okręgiem do Litwy, tamtejsi Polacy albo byli drogą nacisków administracyjnych zmuszani do opuszczenia swojej ojcowizny, albo sami wyjeżdżali do Polski w nowych granicach, nie chcąc żyć w sowieckim "raju", który poznali w latach 1939-41 i który był ponownie ich codziennym koszmarem od lipca 1944 roku. Z Wilna i litewskiej części Wileńszczyzny chęć wyjazdu do Polski wyraziło 134 446 rodzin (379 498 osób). Jednak Litwa była i jest słabo zaludnionym krajem, a wykrwawiony II wojną światową naród rosyjski nie był wówczas w stanie kolonizować na większą skalę ziem przyłączonych do Związku Sowieckiego po 1945 roku (polskie Ziemie Wschodnie, obszary oderwane od Rumunii, Czechosłowacji, Finlandii i Niemiec - rejon Kaliningradu, Japonii oraz republiki: litewską, łotewską i estońską). Tymczasem wyjazd wszystkich Polaków z Wilna i Wileńszczyzny uczyniłby te tereny prawie bezludnymi. Toteż władze sowieckiej Litwy zgodziły się na wyjazd do Polski zaledwie 61 127 rodzin (197 156 osób). Z tego z Wilna, które obrano na stolicę sowieckiej Litwy, wysiedlono lub wyjechało aż 107 613 Polaków. Wysiedlano inteligencję polską i ludzi znanych ze swego polskiego patriotyzmu. Dlatego do Polaków z Wilna i Wileńszczyzny "dorzucono" do wysiedlenia 2647 znanych działaczy polskich z obszaru przedwojennego państwa litewskiego (Jan Czerniakiewicz "Repatriacja ludności polskiej z ZSRR 1944-1948" Warszawa 1987).

Litwini myśleli, że gdy wysiedlą polską inteligencję i "element" znany ze swego polskiego patriotyzmu, to tych siłą zatrzymanych na Litwie Polaków łatwiej się zlitwinizuje. Nadzieja na to stała się wkrótce płonna. Władcy Kremla - tak carscy jak i sowieccy - dobrze znali politykę "dzielenia i rządzenia". Kreml chciał rządzić całą Litwą więc skłócał ze sobą pozostałych na Litwie Polaków z Litwinami. Wilno - stolica Litwy - nie miało być aż tak litewskie, jak tego chcieli Litwini. Rozbudowywana sowiecka struktura władzy wchłaniała tysiące kolonistów rosyjskich, a do budowanych w mieście licznych fabryk ciągnęli Polacy z pobliskiej ciągle polsko-etnicznej Wileńszczyzny, włączonej do sowieckiej Białorusi. W ten sposób w 1959 roku wśród 236 100 mieszkańców Wilna było zaledwie 90 000 Litwinów, prawie tyle samo Rosjan i innych oraz 47 200 Polaków (ok. 20%), a w 1989 roku Litwini w mieście (mającym wówczas 582 000 mieszk.) stanowili akurat 50% ludności, podczas gdy Rosjanie 20,2% ludności, a Polacy 18,8% (ok. 130 000, czyli tyle samo ile ich mieszkało w 1931 r.!). Na całej Litwie w 1989 roku mieszkało ok. 300 000 Polaków, a w powiatach wileńskim i solecznickim Polacy stanowią zdecydowaną większość mieszkańców (odpowiednio 70 i 82 procent). Stolica Litwy jest więc w morzu polskim."
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Old April 13th, 2013, 12:09 AM   #725
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How is it possible that 107,613 Poles fled from Wilno/Vilnius between 1944 and 1948? Ghosts?

And still according to the 2001 census by the Vilnius Regional Statistical Office, there were 18.7% Poles in the Vilnius city municipality...

"Po przyłączeniu polskich Ziem Wschodnich do Związku Sowieckiego, w tym Wilna z okręgiem do Litwy, tamtejsi Polacy albo byli drogą nacisków administracyjnych zmuszani do opuszczenia swojej ojcowizny, albo sami wyjeżdżali do Polski w nowych granicach, nie chcąc żyć w sowieckim "raju", który poznali w latach 1939-41 i który był ponownie ich codziennym koszmarem od lipca 1944 roku. Z Wilna i litewskiej części Wileńszczyzny chęć wyjazdu do Polski wyraziło 134 446 rodzin (379 498 osób). Jednak Litwa była i jest słabo zaludnionym krajem, a wykrwawiony II wojną światową naród rosyjski nie był wówczas w stanie kolonizować na większą skalę ziem przyłączonych do Związku Sowieckiego po 1945 roku (polskie Ziemie Wschodnie, obszary oderwane od Rumunii, Czechosłowacji, Finlandii i Niemiec - rejon Kaliningradu, Japonii oraz republiki: litewską, łotewską i estońską). Tymczasem wyjazd wszystkich Polaków z Wilna i Wileńszczyzny uczyniłby te tereny prawie bezludnymi. Toteż władze sowieckiej Litwy zgodziły się na wyjazd do Polski zaledwie 61 127 rodzin (197 156 osób). Z tego z Wilna, które obrano na stolicę sowieckiej Litwy, wysiedlono lub wyjechało aż 107 613 Polaków. Wysiedlano inteligencję polską i ludzi znanych ze swego polskiego patriotyzmu. Dlatego do Polaków z Wilna i Wileńszczyzny "dorzucono" do wysiedlenia 2647 znanych działaczy polskich z obszaru przedwojennego państwa litewskiego (Jan Czerniakiewicz "Repatriacja ludności polskiej z ZSRR 1944-1948" Warszawa 1987)."

How many Poles came to Vilnius during interwar and how much of them fled from it after WWII ?
Btw, my greatgrandfather was also a pole...Local polish speaking priest during census wrote his surname and nationality as a pole...when he heard about it, local priest complained to authority...yesss...)) funny story, actually.
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Old April 13th, 2013, 12:10 AM   #726
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Old April 13th, 2013, 12:13 AM   #727
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Ethnically ? Tell me, HOW, WHY and WHEN Vinius (plus region) became ethnically polish? ) XIX mid. - only 20 per cent, that, suddenly - all people transformed to...) It is probably the most interesting question.

(...)
Take a deep breath... And then again.

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Originally Posted by Dzwonsson View Post
Which part you don't get?
Well, the entire territory of contemporary Poland would've been Germanic ca. 2000 years ago, but it has nothing to do with the medieval German regional ethnicity & culture (Saxons, Swabians, Bavarians, etc.), as the ancient Germanic tribes had come from Scandinavia.

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Originally Posted by KonstantinasŠirvydas View Post
Standard Polish trolling.
The question: "When the city, what name is Lithuanian of Lithuanian origin and named by Lithuanians - Vilnius was first called Vilnius?"
According to all 19th century censuses, Vilnius was never ethnically Polish (max. 30,9% in 1897, only less than 13% in the suburbs, though).
Yes dude, You are extra smart. Now let us go back to the topic.
Standard Polish trolling is at least more interesting than its standard Lithuanian equivalent.

Anyway, that ~31% rate of Polish population in Wilno according to Russian census in 1897 seems interesting to me, as 19 years later (1916) in a German census the rate of Polish population already stood at 50,2% for the city of Wilno and 58% for the German-occupied Lithuania. Poles must've been mega-strong in a demographic development then...

Anyway, in 1923 (after Polish acquisition) it was even higher and stood at 57,9% in the administrative area of Wilno.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_...Vilnius_region

For all the above censuses the number of Lithuanian Balts in Wilno stood at less than 3%!
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Old April 13th, 2013, 12:17 AM   #728
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Dude, not again. We had conversation with You and You perfectly know, that many, many Poles (colonists) came to Vilnius and region after 1920 from ethnic Poland, hundreds kilometers from Vilnius region (Lodz, Krakow, Poznan). But You forgot it already, right?
Really ?

German census for 1916

City of Wilna
1916
Poles (50.2%)
Jews (43.5%)
Lithuanians (2.6%)
Russians (1.5%)
Other (2.2%)
Total 140,800

Ouch ! Looks like you got owned here
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Old April 13th, 2013, 12:18 AM   #729
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Take a deep breath... And then again.



Well, the entire territory of contemporary Poland would've been Germanic ca. 2000 years ago, but it has nothing to do with the medieval German regional ethnicity & culture (Saxons, Swabians, Bavarians, etc.), as the ancient Germanic tribes had come from Scandinavia.



Standard Polish trolling is at least more interesting than its standard Lithuanian equivalent.

Anyway, that ~31% rate of Polish population in Wilno according to Russian census in 1897 seems interesting to me, as 19 years later (1916) in a German census the rate of Polish population already stood at 50,2% for the city of Wilno and 58% for the German-occupied Lithuania. Poles must've been mega-strong in a demographic development then...

Anyway, in 1923 (after Polish acquisition) it was even higher and stood at 57,9% in the administrative area of Wilno.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_...Vilnius_region

For all the above censuses the number of Lithuanian Balts in Wilno stood at less than 3%!
my previous msg.:

Btw, my greatgrandfather was also a pole...Local polish speaking priest during census wrote his surname and nationality as a pole...when he heard about it, local priest complained to authority...yesss...)) funny story, actually.
I think you know why he complained...

Sad, but not all thing were beautiful.
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Old April 13th, 2013, 12:24 AM   #730
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Old April 13th, 2013, 12:29 AM   #731
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in a German census the rate of Polish population already stood at 58% for the German-occupied Lithuania.
That explains everything
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Old April 13th, 2013, 12:45 AM   #732
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How is it possible that 107,613 Poles fled from Wilno/Vilnius between 1944 and 1948? Ghosts?
That number of Polish refugees (107,613) would've been even higher, if ca. 20,000 Poles from Wilno Region had not been murdered in Ponary massacre.

PS. I wonder when Lithuanians will eventually translate that Wiki article into their language...

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Originally Posted by Prosp View Post
Btw, my greatgrandfather was also a pole...Local polish speaking priest during census wrote his surname and nationality as a pole...when he heard about it, local priest complained to authority...yesss...)) funny story, actually.
Sorry, but I can't understand anything from your story.

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That explains everything
Why?
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Old April 13th, 2013, 12:51 AM   #733
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Read memoirs of Lithuanian priest Beliauskas or diary of Jurgis Matulaitis on how that "census" was carried. Ups, looks like You got pawned here, hehe.
Yes every census was rigged. Conspiracy stuff you know.

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Also, if You could explain, why in Joniškis town near Latvia, there was a riot in 1900s when Lithuanian language Masses started instead of Polish ones, it would be nice. Oh wait, I forgot, Joniškis is ethnic Polish...
Well looks like people didn't want masses in Lithuanian so they rioted. Thanks for proving the point
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Old April 13th, 2013, 01:18 AM   #734
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That number of Polish refugees (107,613) would've been even higher, if ca. 20,000 Poles from Wilno Region had not been murdered in Ponary massacre.

PS. I wonder when Lithuanians will eventually translate that Wiki article into their language...



Sorry, but I can't understand anything from your story.



Why?
is there any documentation as to who the victims at Ponary were, a registry of names etc, Nazis kept good records usually?
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Old April 13th, 2013, 01:32 AM   #735
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Old April 13th, 2013, 01:47 AM   #736
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Originally Posted by KonstantinasŠirvydas View Post
We had conversation with You and You perfectly know, that many, many Poles (colonists) came to Vilnius and region after 1920 from ethnic Poland, hundreds kilometers from Vilnius region (Lodz, Krakow, Poznan). But You forgot it already, right?
Quite the opposite, Mr KonstantinasŠirvydas a.k.a vilniusguide a.k.a miestas etc.

The total fertility rate in Poland before World War II peaked in the 20s and 30s. Population growth was among highest in Europe. People came to live and work to most developed parts of Poland like Upper Silesia, Greater Poland or Pomerania ( Gdynia) and to major cities in the region. "Kresy" including Wilno Voivodeship were relatively undeveloped and peripherally situated.

EOT

Straduny/Stradaunen, Poland

The village was officially founded in 1475 as Straudenen by Bernhard von Balzhofen, Komtur of Brandenburg, as part of the monastic state of the Teutonic Knights. As Stradaunen, the village became part of the Duchy of Prussia in 1525 after the secularization of the Teutonic Knights. Stradaunen was included within the Kingdom of Prussia in 1701 and the German Empire in 1871. From 1818–1945, it was administered within Landkreis Lyck in East Prussia. In 1945 the village was placed under Polish administration according to the Potsdam Agreement.

Our Lady Queen of Poland church ( built in 1738)

Author: Pudelek (Marcin Szala)

Old mill

Author: Mieczysław Kalski


Author: Mieczysław Kalski

Lake and village

Author: Mieczysław Kalski

Manor house

http://www.egoturystyka.pl/portal.ph...04e00c6a4e0164

* Bonus

Nowo wydany Kancjonał Pruski- 1741 (most popular hymnal in Masuria) by Jerzy Wasiański, local Protestant pastor ( published in Königsberg/ Królewiec).

http://www.lamus.pl/shop_2006/_php/i...roduct_details

Ps. First edition - Jagiellonian Library.
http://jbc.bj.uj.edu.pl/dlibra/docme...&from=pubstats
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Old April 13th, 2013, 01:51 AM   #737
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is there any documentation as to who the victims at Ponary were, a registry of names etc, Nazis kept good records usually?
Don't know about Nazi German sources, but there is extensive Polish documentation about that massacre. You can find it under the section "References" of the English Wiki article and in the respective Polish article, where i.a. the info about Polish witnesses is included.
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W Ponarach zginęli przedstawiciele inteligencji wileńskiej, m.in.:
* Mieczysław Engiel – adwokat, poseł na Sejm Wileński, działacz społeczny na Wileńszczyźnie (17 września 1943)
* Mieczysław Gutkowski – prawnik, profesor nauki skarbowości i prawa skarbowego na Uniwersytecie Stefana Batorego w Wilnie (17 września 1943)
* Kazimierz Pelczar – lekarz, naukowiec, pionier polskiej onkologii, profesor Uniwersytetu Stefana Batorego w Wilnie (17 września 1943)
* Chaim Siemiatycki – poeta żydowski, tworzący w języku jidysz, rabin (rozstrzelany we wrześniu 1943)
* Stanisław Węsławski – adwokat, kompozytor, pierwszy konspiracyjny prezydent miasta Wilna i prezes Polskiego Czerwonego Krzyża w Wilnie (2 grudnia 1942)
* Wanda Rewieńska – geograf, działaczka harcerska i niepodległościowa, żona instruktora harcerskiego Alojzego Pawełka (21 listopada 1942)
One of the recommended sources is a publication titled "Ponary - the place of human slaughter", which was issued by the Polish Institute of National Rememberance in 2011 and endorsed by the Polish MFA.



Also, below are the links to source documents (reports) of the Polish Underground State as at 1942-44 (as linked in the above Polish Wiki article):
- http://pl.wikisource.org/wiki/Odezwa...%C5%9Bnia_1943
- http://pl.wikisource.org/wiki/Meldun...281942-1944%29

If you needed any other info or had other questions in this regard, please let me know.
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Old April 13th, 2013, 02:24 AM   #738
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Straduny/Stradaunen, Poland

The village was officially founded in 1475 as Straudenen by Bernhard von Balzhofen, Komtur of Brandenburg, as part of the monastic state of the Teutonic Knights. As Stradaunen, the village became part of the Duchy of Prussia in 1525 after the secularization of the Teutonic Knights. Stradaunen was included within the Kingdom of Prussia in 1701 and the German Empire in 1871. From 1818–1945, it was administered within Landkreis Lyck in East Prussia. In 1945 the village was placed under Polish administration according to the Potsdam Agreement.

Our Lady Queen of Poland church ( built in 1738)

Author: Pudelek (Marcin Szala)

Old mill

Author: Mieczysław Kalski


Author: Mieczysław Kalski

Lake and village

Author: Mieczysław Kalski

Manor house

http://www.egoturystyka.pl/portal.ph...04e00c6a4e0164

* Bonus

Nowo wydany Kancjonał Pruski- 1741 (most popular hymnal in Masuria) by Jerzy Wasiański, local Protestant pastor ( published in Königsberg/ Królewiec).

http://www.lamus.pl/shop_2006/_php/i...roduct_details

Ps. First edition - Jagiellonian Library.
http://jbc.bj.uj.edu.pl/dlibra/docme...&from=pubstats
Very nice. It looks like a beautiful town. The church and the manor are in excellent condition. I like the information about the hymnal.
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Old April 13th, 2013, 02:41 AM   #739
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Well, the entire territory of contemporary Poland would've been Germanic ca. 2000 years ago, but it has nothing to do with the medieval German regional ethnicity & culture (Saxons, Swabians, Bavarians, etc.), as the ancient Germanic tribes had come from Scandinavia.
You seem not to understand even a word of anything I wrote over the past week. EOT.
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Old April 13th, 2013, 02:56 AM   #740
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