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Old April 13th, 2013, 11:04 AM   #741
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Puritan, beautiful photos from Masuria

Now a bit more about Warmia, part of Polish Crown between 1466 and 1772 (inhabited by mostly Catholic population)...


The Warmiak are a Polish ethnic group from Warmia who are mostly Roman Catholics and who speak their own dialect of Polish, called gwara warminska.

Between the 14th and 17th centuries, settlers from northern Mazovia moved to former territories of Old Prussians, following conquests by the Teutonic Order, and the erection of the Monastic state of the Teutonic Knights.

The bishopric of Warmia became in 1466 an autonomous part of Royal Prussia, and remained part of Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth until 1772 (see: Partitions of Poland). While Mazurs in the neighboring Ducal Prussia became Protestants when that Duchy adopted Lutheranism in the 16th century, most Warmiaks, populating the areas around, Olsztyn remained Catholics.

During World War II, the Warmiaks were persecuted by the Nazi Germany government, which wanted to erase all aspects of Polish culture and Polish language in Warmia. After the war, due to their Polish roots, they were not victims of Expulsion of Germans after World War II, but in the course of the time, large numbers of Warmiaks decided to leave their native land and settle in more prosperous West Germany.

Warmia Dialect
http://www.gwarypolskie.uw.edu.pl/in...=637&Itemid=28
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Old April 13th, 2013, 11:39 AM   #742
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Baroque church in Orzechowo/Nossberg (founded by Teodor Potocki, built in 1716)






Church in Bartąg/Bertung


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Old April 13th, 2013, 12:03 PM   #743
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Saints Valentine and Roch church in Klewki/Klaukendorf (built in 1481)


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Old April 13th, 2013, 12:03 PM   #744
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KonstantinasŠirvydas View Post
Yes, 58% of inhabitants of Lithuania in 1916 according to the census - Poles and 2% Lithuanians.
German census, year 1916, city of Wilna, not entire occupied Lithuania.

Thanks for playing
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Old April 13th, 2013, 12:14 PM   #745
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
Hopefully, Jan Stefan Wydzga's Palace (demolished in 1839-1840) will be rebuilt some day.

Looks more like Lukas Watzenrodes palace...

And why not mention all bishops of Warmia?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bishops_of_Warmia
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Old April 13th, 2013, 12:16 PM   #746
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You don't see a difference?


Adam Stanisław Grabowski's palace (see below) within the complex has been recently restored and in my opinion Jan Stefan Wydzga's palace should be rebuilt as well...


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Old April 13th, 2013, 12:52 PM   #747
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First (according to wiki) Evangelical Church in Warmia (built in 1818-1823)




Church in Glotowo/Glottau (founded by Teodor Potocki, built in 1722-1726)




Altar from 1742


Church in Chwalęcin/Stegmannsdorf (founded by Jan Krzysztof Szembek, built in 1728)


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Old April 13th, 2013, 02:11 PM   #748
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Reformed Franciscan monastery in Łąki Bratiańskie (founded by Pawel Jan Dzialynski in 1631, complex burned down in 1882)




Roman Catholic Church in Brąswałd/Braunswalde (built in 1617 by Szymon Rudnicki, rebuilt in 1894-1896), Warmia




Wayside shrines and Walenty Barczewski tomb


Church in Ignalin (built in 1783-1785 by Ignacy Krasicki)






Rectory
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Old April 13th, 2013, 02:57 PM   #749
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Old April 13th, 2013, 03:17 PM   #750
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Old April 13th, 2013, 04:23 PM   #751
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Church in Grzęda/Sturmhübel (built in 1755-1757)






Altar (painting by Jozef Korzeniowski)


Church in Gryźliny/Grieslienen (in 1861 Gryźliny were inhabited by 457 Catholics and 2 Protestants, all Polish speaking)






Jan Baczewski (born in Gryźliny)
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Old April 13th, 2013, 04:55 PM   #752
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katsuma View Post
Well, by way of parallel, you are just devastating ideological foothold for the ownership rights of Lithuania to Wilno (Vilnius) and Ukraine to Lwów (Lviv).
katsuma, I agree with you. Dmowski's Line as western border of Poland after WW2 would've made sense only if the eastern border of Poland had been the same after 1945 as before 1939. With such borders we wouldn't have had any population transfers of ethnic Germans or Poles and cultural heritage (including cemeteries) would've been fully preserved.
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Old April 13th, 2013, 05:43 PM   #753
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KonstantinasŠirvydas View Post
Standard Polish trolling. Well, as usual.
Puritan, yes, also aka Sabonis, aka Oranger, aka Whatever, aka Kaspis, aka Prosp and aka Puritan too.
But you missed the point and started trolling. Oh well, whatever, nevermind. Just arrogant Pole.
You are one to talk … Embittered troll known as KonstantinasŠirvydas/vilniusguide/miestas.

Kraplewo/ Kraplau, Poland

village in the administrative district of Gmina Ostróda, within Ostróda County, Warmian-Masurian Voivodeship.

Methodist Church - former Lutheran church ( built in 1848).






Rectory

https://picasaweb.google.com/metodyzm/Kraplewo#

John Wesley - Co-Founder Of The Methodist Church


Manor house ( built in 1919).

http://www.mazury-zachodnie.pl/


http://krainakanaluelblaskiego.com/


http://www.lokale-wesele.pl/galeria/zdjecie/31410.html

Kraplewo lake
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Old April 13th, 2013, 05:52 PM   #754
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As usual you are ignoring that most of the land east of regular curzon line was no closed settlement area of polish people.



I think it is quite comprehensible that Stalin reversed that after these territories were lost against Poland during the war 1919-1921. The numbers of people from east Poland back then were also quite smaller compared to the Germans in east Germany.
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Old April 13th, 2013, 07:43 PM   #755
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Del

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Old April 13th, 2013, 08:58 PM   #756
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saxonia View Post
The numbers of people from east Poland back then were also quite smaller compared to the Germans in east Germany.
In former East Germany, according to the 1939 German census, the territories were inhabited by 8,855,000 people, including a large (over 1,2 million; mostly Upper Silesia and Masuria) Polish-speaking minority in the easternmost parts.

In former East Poland (Kresy), according to the 1939 census (data from "Mały Rocznik Statystyczny Polski wrzesień 1939-czerwiec 1941"), the territories were inhabited by 13,299,000 people (including 5,274,000 Poles).

In 1970, density of Recovered Territories reached pre-war limits. Of course, it doesn't mean that other parts of Poland were less densely populated (23,930,100 in 1970 vs 23,483,000 in 1939).
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Old April 13th, 2013, 09:58 PM   #757
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katsuma View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by KonstantinasŠirvydas
That explains everything
Why?
No response so far, so I'll ask you again: why?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ufonut View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by KonstantinasŠirvydas View Post
Also, if You could explain, why in Joniškis town near Latvia, there was a riot in 1900s when Lithuanian language Masses started instead of Polish ones, it would be nice. Oh wait, I forgot, Joniškis is ethnic Polish...
Well looks like people didn't want masses in Lithuanian so they rioted. Thanks for proving the point
Beautiful.

Your comment was directed to Puritan, but I'd be happy to take it up (if no objections)...

I looked up the first link above and noticed the name of publication's author. Jerzy Ochmański, a great Polish historian, student of Prof. Henryk Łowmiański. Do you not have any reputable scholars in Lithuania to draw knowledge about the history of Grand Duchy of Lithuania?

Anyway, from what I can see, that document refers to Lithuanian ethnic range until 16th century. I previously said that Wilno had been the city with a dominant Polish ethnicity & culture since early 18th century. So you seem to have missed the point (again?).

PS. I didn't read the rest of the linked documents, so it would be nice if you could give us a brief summary here. Thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KonstantinasŠirvydas View Post
Now after little history-educator for dummies, I hope we can stop Polish chauvinism and go back to the topic of this thread.
Please, for your own good as a SSC forumer, don't use the words, which you don't understand the meaning of.

But if you insist, we surely can start talking about the issues like chauvinism, xenophobia and hatred towards other ethnic groups living in one country (at the time of both war and peace), but such discussion may not be extremely pleasant for a member of great Lithuanian nation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheReconstructer View Post
Everybody? I can see only one meme-loving troll here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saxonia View Post
As usual you are ignoring that most of the land east of regular curzon line was no closed settlement area of polish people.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...linguistic.jpg

I think it is quite comprehensible that Stalin reversed that after these territories were lost against Poland during the war 1919-1921. The numbers of people from east Poland back then were also quite smaller compared to the Germans in east Germany.
Excuse me? As far as the Wilno Region & Middle Lithuania is concerned, the Polish dominance was clearly existent there.

Anyway, I would agree that the Interwar Poland was not so advanced in promoting Polishness in the rural regions of Eastern Borderlands (Kresy), as it had been the case of e.g. Polish lands annexed during the Partitions by Prussia and then German Empire.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KonstantinasŠirvydas View Post
Anyway, as usual, there will be no comments on Polish scholar Halina Turska and Polish historian works, nor on the data from the Archives of Lithuania that I gave in links, only pointless messages. Polish style.
Chill out, man. See my comment above. Not everyone is spending their weekend just on a computer.
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Old April 13th, 2013, 10:00 PM   #758
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Census that were made during war are not very helpful. Especially not in Poland.

13 Million people and thereof 5 Million poles seems not be very likely. About 1.85 Million poles east of the curzon line fled in the last year of the war or after it. Including the killed an the ones who stayed longer I would estimate their pre war number in this region at 2.5 to 3 Million Poles.

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Old April 14th, 2013, 02:12 AM   #759
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Churches of Lubawa/Löbau










Ruins of Bishop Castle




Quote:
Originally Posted by Saxonia View Post
I would estimate their pre war number in this region at 2.5 to 3 Million Poles.
Based on what? Official census of 1931 showed over 4,75 million of Poles in Kresy. According to the 1939 census, the territories were inhabited by 5,274,000 Poles.

Poles in Soviet Union in 1959:
Ukraine - 363,297
Lithuania - 230,107
Belarus - 538,881
Kazakhstan - 53,102
Russia - at least 100,000

Poles who were expelled from Soviet Union to Poland (1944-1946 and 1955-1959) - ~2,208,000

Total: 3,493,387

While other Poles have been murdered during Soviet occupation, joined Red Army, etc. I think that official data from 1931 and 1939 are quite accurate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saxonia View Post
Census that were made during war are not very helpful.
Sorry mate, it was census from 1939.
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Old April 14th, 2013, 02:45 AM   #760
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I am surprised and impressed that so many churches are in excellent condition after so many years of communist anti-religious bigotry. I know it has been more than two decades since the end of communist rule, but these churches have obviously been cared for by people who love them for a long time. I am sure it was not easy.

The external structures look wonderful - and so do the interiors. All of the details of the altars and the pews and the windows that I can see look beautiful. I am a practicing Catholic and I know a church that is well care for when I see it. It is not just keeping the outside 'nice'. It is much more than that.

Cheers to all the people who work so hard and have done such a fine job.
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