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Old April 14th, 2013, 02:49 AM   #761
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Thanks again to RS_UK-PL, Puritan and Katsuma for all the detailed photos and information.
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Old April 14th, 2013, 11:46 AM   #762
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Church in Barczewko/Alt Wartenburg








Karol Langwald

Sząbruk/Schönbrück


Andrzej Samulowski
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Old April 14th, 2013, 12:33 PM   #763
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Lutheran Church in Dźwierzuty/Mensguth (Masuria)




Cemetery




Jan Samuel Gregorovius (author of "Postylla polska 67 kazań w sobie zawierającej") was town's rector between 1763 and 1776.

Lutheran Church in Sorkwity/Sorquitten (again, Masuria)




Cemetery

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Old April 14th, 2013, 03:28 PM   #764
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Old April 14th, 2013, 07:10 PM   #765
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KonstantinasŠirvydas View Post
Are You stupid or what? I gave You five links. Then read all the five or do not respond.
It appears that when you lack arguments, you start spreading insults. But it doesn't work on me, as it's only a proof of your unconfidence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KonstantinasŠirvydas View Post
These five documents depict Lithuanian ethnic lands from the 12th century on and show all the later Polonization and Russification, migration processes (with figures), policies.
Sorry, I'm not that desperate to spend my time on going through a number of lengthy dissertations.

If you don't want to give us a summary, that's fine. But I'll come back to my previous comment that:
Quote:
Wilno had been the city with a dominant Polish ethnicity & culture since early 18th century.
So, do those publications stand in contradiction with what I said?

Also, I never implied that since the creation of Polish state in 10th century the Wilno Region & Middle Lithuania had been located within the ethnic Polish range. However, the Polish identity arouse in the Grand Duchy of Lithuania by way of a "top-down" approach (GDL nobles chose to polonise themselves, Polish clergy & scholars were arriving into GDL, etc.).

And in that point I see certain similarity with German legacy in Poland's Recovered Territories (former Ostgebiete), where the whole discussion had started from.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KonstantinasŠirvydas View Post
What this would suppose to mean in this context? Said by such chauvinists as You, this should be some sort of insult? Wanna end up like other Your nicks - leszekbombka, jose valderama, ja.centy ?
Well, I'd suggest you to rather take care of yourself, so that you don't end up like your double "vilniusguide".

As for chauvinism, I'm glad you looked up its definition. So perhaps you can explain it here, how the Polish "bellicose patriotism and a belligerent belief in national superiority" looked like in the Wilno Region & Middle Lithuania, which was "occupied" by Poland in 1921-39?

And then we shall compare it to: (a) Lithuanian chauvinism towards Poles in the Interwar Lithuania (e.g. region of Kowno/Kaunas), and (b) to your (LT) attitude and actions towards Poles & Jews during WW2. And I am not even going to speak about the treatment of ethnic minorities in contemporary Lithuania, the proud member of European Union.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KonstantinasŠirvydas View Post
1912 map by Polish ethnographer.
So much for the "Polish dominance" (see the description of chauvinism above).
http://rokiskis.popo.lt/files/2011/0...yczna_1912.jpg

Merely 8 years later, Poland occupied ethnic lands of Ukrainians, Belarusians and Lithuanians. End of the story.
OMG, not the maps again...

Here we go again:

1/ Ethnic history of the Vilnius region (incl. the data from Russian census 1897, German census 1916, Polish census 1921 & 1939)

2/ Map of the Polish ethnic range 1916

3/ Another map of the Polish ethnic range 1918

4/ Map of the Polish ethnic range in Lithuania 1929

5/ Nationalities in the 2nd Polish Republic 1931

If it's enough for you, that's great. If not, well, so be it...
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Old April 14th, 2013, 09:18 PM   #766
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Old April 14th, 2013, 09:18 PM   #767
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Słobity/Schlobitten
The baroque castle was the ancestral seat of the Dohna-Schlobittens and used as a royal castle by the Hohenzollerns. Destroyed by the Red Army and today in Poland.






Gładysze/Schlodien
This baroque castle close to Słobity belonged to the Dohna family and was most probably built by Jean de Bodt. The castle was surrounded by a large park. It was looted by the Red Army, later used as a grain warehouse and a disco and burned down in 1986.






Another castle of the Dohna-Schlobittens, close to the other two, was Karwiny/Carwinden , which doesn't exist anymore. Jean de Bodt was involved here too. The palace chapel from the 17th century, which at least partly survived WW2, collapsed in 1998.



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Old April 14th, 2013, 10:06 PM   #768
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"Zenonas Norkus, Edvardas Gudavičius, Tomas Baranauskas or Zigmas Zinkevičius"
Forgive me, I'm only asking myself about historical complications:
the names sounds a little (or maybe more than a little") polish - Zenon Norka, Edward Gudowicz, Tomasz Baranowski, Zygmunt Zinkiewicz.
It's only for relax - no offence meant

Karasek: good photos (keep balance)
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Old April 15th, 2013, 11:17 AM   #769
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Karasek, I'm sure that someday all palaces will be reconstructed (especially, the ones built by Polish bishops and nobility). In addition, there are a lot of new mansions/palaces being built in the region, like for example Lapalice (owned by Piotr Kazimierczak) in Kashubia...



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Old April 15th, 2013, 12:39 PM   #770
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Teodor Potocki's mansion (built between 1718 and 1719, rebuilt after WW2) in Braniewo/Braunsberg (Warmia) will be soon renovated








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Old April 15th, 2013, 02:05 PM   #771
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Baroque church in Franknowo/Frankenau (built in 1751, founded by Adam Stanislaw Grabowski)








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Old April 15th, 2013, 03:01 PM   #772
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Baroque church in Lamkowo/Lemkendorf (founded by Krzysztof Andrzej Jan Szembek, built in 1737-1748)




Cemetery


Franciszek Szczepanski's tomb


Some old altars


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Old April 15th, 2013, 04:09 PM   #773
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
(especially, the ones built by Polish bishops and nobility).
Why especially those ones? The ones built by Germans are worse?

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Old April 15th, 2013, 04:41 PM   #774
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Church in Kwiecewo/Queetz (built in 1692-1693, consecrated by Andrzej Chryzostom Zaluski)








Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. America View Post
Why especially those ones?
It's only my own opinion and you don't have to agree with it. Poles are not taking care of their own heritage, and that is why I'm hoping that palaces, churches, etc. built by Polish nobility or bishops will be renovated, reconstructed in the first place (followed by Prussian ones).

Mr.America, if you don't like Lapalice, what do you think about Polish manor style (example - link)? I've seen a lot of new houses in Warmian-Masurian Voivodeship built in that architectural style.
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Old April 15th, 2013, 08:17 PM   #775
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Church in Wilczkowo/Wolfsdorf (built in 1786-1787, founded by Ignacy Krasicki)








Church in Międzylesie/Schönwiese (built in 1752-1753, consecrated by Ignacy Krasicki)






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Old April 15th, 2013, 08:31 PM   #776
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Baroque church in Pilnik/Neuhof (founded by Andrzej Chryzostom Zaluski)






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Old April 15th, 2013, 10:13 PM   #777
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Had no idea there are so many historic churches and remnants of various cultures in these parts. I will add some of these to my map when we tour this region this summer by car. Good work
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Warsaw Post-War Reconstruction to Present

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Old April 15th, 2013, 10:48 PM   #778
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
Mr.America, if you don't like Lapalice, what do you think about Polish manor style (example - link)? I've seen a lot of new houses in Warmian-Masurian Voivodeship built in that architectural style.
Houses built in Polish manor style can be better or worse. The ones built in Second Polish Republic are actually quite good, but unfortunately most of modern ones are crap. They often have poor detail, bad proportions and they are rather parody of Polish manor style.
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Old April 16th, 2013, 01:56 AM   #779
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KonstantinasŠirvydas View Post
1916, 1918, 1929, 1931.

Could You show us a map of "the Polish dominance" in the 19th century or that prove, that "Wilno had been the city with a dominant Polish ethnicity & culture since early 18th century."? Why You scream about "dominance from at least 18th century" and throw maps from 1929, 1931? Just another desperate act of hypocrisy.
Looks like another attempt to sound clever...

Well, it's you who first posted an ethnic range map, which, however, did not relate to the status in 18th or 19th century (to counteract my claim on the Polishness of Wilno), but as of 1912.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KonstantinasŠirvydas
1912 map by Polish ethnographer.
So much for the "Polish dominance" (see the description of chauvinism above).
http://rokiskis.popo.lt/files/2011/0...yczna_1912.jpg
Hello, what did you call me again?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KonstantinasŠirvydas View Post
If you are not willing to read scholars works, how are You sure? Because You know? Better than scholars? We should rather spit on the works on scholars and rely on your Ura! "axioms"? Of course, these two chauvinist statements of Yours above are the way more valuable than "I'm not that desperate to spend my time on going through a number of lengthy dissertations."
Now, coming back to my statement that "Wilno had been the city with a dominant Polish ethnicity & culture since early 18th century". I didn't pull that bit "out of thin air", but simply haven't given my sources yet, which I am going to do now.

Let's start from demographics:

1/ Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth (1569-1795). Demographics & religion

Quote:
In 1618, after the Truce of Deulino, the Commonwealth population increased together with its territory, reaching 11.5 million people, which was composed roughly of 4.5 m Poles, 3.5 m Ukrainians, 1.5 m Belarusians, 0.75 m Lithuanians, 0.75 m Old Prussians, 0.5 m Jews, and 0.5 m Livonians. (...)

Coupled with further population and territorial losses, in 1717 the Commonwealth population had fallen to 9 m, with roughly 4.5 m/50% Poles, 1.5 m/17% Ukrainians, 1.2 m Belarusians, 0.8 m Lithuanians, 0.5 m Jews, and 0.5 m others.
Maps of the Commonwealth population from: Iwo Cyprian Pogonowski, Poland: A Historical Atlas, Hippocrene Books, 1987 ---> Map 1618 & map 1717

...moving on to the Polonization and Polishness of Wilno:

2/ History of Lithuania. Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth (1569-1795)

Quote:
Following the union (Union of Lublin 1569), Polonization increasingly affected all aspects of Lithuanian public life; it took well over a century for the process to be completed. The 1588 Statute of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania and the earlier legal codifications were written in the Ruthenian Chancery Slavonic language. From about 1700 Polish was used in official documents; the Ruthenian language and Latin had been utilized in the Grand Duchy's written transactions prior to that time. Lithuania's ruling families and nobility had become linguistically and culturally Polonized, while retaining a sense of Lithuanian identity. The Lithuanian language fell into disuse in the circles of the grand dukes' courts in the 2nd half of the 15th century. A century later (mid 16th cent.) Polish was commonly used by ordinary Lithuanian nobility.
3/ Polonization of Lithuania (source text in Polish)

Quote:
Język polski został przyjęty na Litwie przez warstwy polityczne i kulturowo czynne w połowie XVI wieku, chociaż stopniowa polonizacja miejscowej szlachty sięgała początkami wieku XV. Polonizacja Litwy była rezultatem procesów historycznych, tj. unii polsko-litewskiej, ale przede wszystkim unii lubelskiej 1569, chrystianizacji Litwy (właściwej) (w 1387 r. Auksztoty, i w 1413 r. Żmudzi).
Polish language was adopted in Lithuania by the politically and culturally active class in mid 16th century, however a gradual Polonization of local nobility had even reached back to early 15th century.

Quote:
W roku 1697 na Litwie, na wniosek miejscowej szlachty (tzw. zrównanie praw) wprowadzono język polski jako urzędowy, w miejsce dotychczas obowiązującego języka starobiałoruskiego. W wieku XVIII polonizacja ziem objętych granicami Rzeczypospolitej Obojga Narodów była już procesem zakończonym, a polonizacja Wilna stanem dokonanym. Proces ten przebiegał już bez nakazów i zakazów, bez przymusu, głównie pod wpływem dominacji cywilizacyjnej i oddziaływań administracyjnych.
In 18th cent. the polonization of Wilno was a fait accompli.

4/ Vilnius on the Map of Sarmatia by Laimonas Briedis (website: lituanus.org)

Quote:
Although it is difficult to give a reliable linguistic breakdown of the city’s population, the ethnic composition of the ruling urban elite (that is, the city’s elected municipal officials) of the late part of the seventeenth century (1662-1702) reveals a certain pattern of ethnic fragmentation, with Poles comprising roughly fifty per cent, Ruthenians thirty percent, Germans eight per cent, Italians four per cent plus some minorities of Lithuanian or Hungarian origin. Of course, the general population was even more diverse, since Jews, Tartars, lower class Lithuanians, and foreigners could not participate in the municipal government.
5/ "Essays. Publicism" by Tomas Venclova (sic!)

Quote:
Tak więc od osiemnastego stulecia do drugiej wojny światowej było Wilno miastem polskim i żydowskim, podczas gdy na Wileńszczyźnie dominowali Litwini i Białorusini.
Since 18th century until WW2 Wilno had been a Polish & Jewish city.

Quote:
Postrzeganie Wilna jako polskiej enklawy wśród litewskiego i białoruskiego żywiołu datuje się od czasów renesansu i baroku. Językowi polskiemu - językowi spolonizowanej arystokracji i kultury - przez długi czas towarzyszyły dialekty litewskie i wschodniosłowiańskie.
The perception of Wilno as a Polish enclave amongst Lithuanian & Belarussian ethnic element dates back to the times of Renaissance & Baroque.

PS. Do you remember my previous question as to when in its history the city had been called "Vilnius"?

In the above essay Tomas Venclova states that the oldest name of the city seems to have been "Vilnia" (derived from the river nearby), which is reflected in the Polish name "Wilno" and Russian-Jewish "Vilna". The currently effective name "Vilnius" is - according to Venclova - an artificial product created by Lithuanian romanticists of 19th & 20th century!

And that seems about right, when you look at the historic maps of Lithuania (here, here or here).

Example: Tabula Moderna Sarmatie, AD 1520



6/ Wilno, ethnically non-Lithuanian by Marian Kałuski (source text in Polish)

Quote:
W 1737 roku w ostatnim kościele w Wilnie zaprzestano głoszenia kazań w języku litewskim i nie pod naciskiem administracyjnym czy jakimkolwiek innym, a tylko z braku osób tym zainteresowanych.
The preaching of sermons in Lithuanian language was stopped in the last church of Wilno in 1737, and it was not because of any administrative pressure, but due to the lack of interested persons.

Quote:
Od XVIII wieku do 1945 roku Wilno było miastem polskim – większość jego mieszkańców stanowili Polacy.
Since 18th cent. (until 1945) the majority of Wilno inhabitants were Polish.

---

Ufff, that was a really time consuming task for me, and I hope you will appreciate my effort.

Now, if you don't mind (and regardless if or what you would reply), I won't be occupying this thread anymore with our slight off-topic...
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Old April 16th, 2013, 04:04 AM   #780
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Jeeeeeezzzz Katsuma. Get a grip; we've asked before that you refrain from childish name-calling and rudeness. Please take your attitude and made-up histories elsewhere. This forum and thread is not the place for whatever it is you're up to.
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