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Old April 16th, 2013, 10:10 AM   #781
KonstantinasŠirvydas
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Old April 16th, 2013, 12:39 PM   #782
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The litlle problem is the German map that shows Lithuania with polish designations f.ex. Kowno, Wilno, Mariampol, N. Troki, Njemen, Willa etc.
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Old April 16th, 2013, 12:53 PM   #783
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Old April 16th, 2013, 12:57 PM   #784
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Originally Posted by greg111 View Post
The litlle problem is the German map that shows Lithuania with polish designations f.ex. Kowno, Wilno, Mariampol, N. Troki, Njemen, Willa etc.
I do not think it is a problem. Let's look to the city names like Telšiai, Panevėžys, Šiauliai - they are written in žemaitija dialect. Some latvian city names are written in german.
This map is very accurate.

1. It was made by germans. In XVII-XIX-XX cent. Germans were strongly involved into the research of indo-european language, particularly into the branch of Pro IE Baltic language as the most archaic of all I.E.languages.
2. Today their linguistic scientific school is very important and still is making a strong impact on every aspect of development and history of Baltic languages.
3. Probably this map refers to Baltic language generally, i.e. author of the map considers Lithuanian and Latvian language as a one language. Despite some differences, LT-LV languages are very similar. It took me less the half a year to learn Latvian. People from Žemaitija can learn Latvian easily.
4. Pay attention on Bauska region in the north part of Lithuania, south part of Latvia– this territory was inhabited by ugro-finnic speaking people in XVI cent. Plus non-baltic livonian-speaking people near Riga. The author of map probably knew LT-LV very well.
5. German speaking territories are marked exactly as well.
6. Norther part of present Belarus were Lithuanian speaking till the WW I. During sovietic time, ethnographers and linguists found people speaking very archaic dialect – ie. Zatiela (by. Dzyatlava).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zietela

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Being 80 kilometers south of present day Lithuania, environs of Dzyatlava had been known by linguists as the outermost indigenous Lithuanian speaking "island" apart from the contiguous Lithuanian language territory. The Lithuanian-speakers spoke a unique dialect, known as the "Zietela dialect"; it has been speculated that the ancestors of its speakers might have been Lithuanized Jotvingians. It drew the attention by many prominent linguists, such as Christian Schweigaard Stang, Vladimir Toporov, Kazimieras Būga and Juozas Balčikonis. In 1886, 1156 people in nearby villages declared themselves Lithuanians, however the real number might have been much greater.[3] Until World War II there was a Lithuanian minority in surrounding villages. Only one woman (Kotryna Žukelytė-Jodienė) identified herself as Lithuanian in 1959 and at present the Lithuanian population is virtually extinct. The Vocabulary of Zietela Dialect has been published in Lithuania.

Examples of Zietela dialect:
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Zietelos šnekta artima vakarų aukštaičių kauniškių tarmei. Čia nedzūkuojama, nekeičiama an, am į ą ir em, en į ę, tačiau kietinamas priebalsis l, iš dalies ir kiti priebalsiai. Kai kuriuose žodžiuose ž virsta z (pvz., zasis, ziema, zivis ir kt.). Spėjama, kad ši šnekta gali būti kilusi net iš senovės prūsų ar jotvingių pabėgėlių, kurie 1276 m. atsikėlė į šias apylinkes ir sumišo su vietos lietuviais.
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Zietelos lietuviai turėjo išlaikę visus keturis senovinius vietininkus, taip pat įdomiai vietoje veiksmažodžio buvo sako bit, nors kitos būti formos sutapo su normine lietuvių kalba. Jie vartojo įdomią mažybinę priesagą -itkas ir -utas. Be to, čia pasitaikydavo senoviškų, kitose tarmėse visai nevartojamų ar vartojamų kita reikšme žodžių, pvz., asmokas – „pinigas“, kungysta – „baudžiava“, kunoda – „bulvė“, pekus – „galvija“, mulkti – „ryti“, nasrai, nastrai – „burna“ ir kt.


and so on and on…
summa summarum we can make a conclusion the the author of this map knew present day LT-LV-EE territories. Probably he was a german (or baltic-german) and he/she knew differences and similarities between lithuanian, latvian, estonian (and ugro-finnic) languages.

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Old April 16th, 2013, 12:58 PM   #785
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And also Polish ones with names like Warschau, Posen, Thorn, Petrikau, Glogau, Weichsel,
That's right
But this is the best:
from http://www.albionmich.com/history/hi.../S_Rimsa.shtml
" Unfortunately, outside of Lithuania Mickevicius was erroneously known as a Polish patriot and writer. He died September 26, 1855, in Constantinople. "
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Old April 16th, 2013, 01:11 PM   #786
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Originally Posted by greg111 View Post
That's right
But this is the best:
from http://www.albionmich.com/history/hi.../S_Rimsa.shtml
" Unfortunately, outside of Lithuania Mickevicius was erroneously known as a Polish patriot and writer. He died September 26, 1855, in Constantinople. "
Yes. But imho A.Mickevičius (Adam Mickiewicz) is not so important figure in Lithuania, particularly today. We do not consider him as a exlusive person.
It seem that he more or less knew lithuanian language - his lectures notes confirms this point.
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Old April 16th, 2013, 01:22 PM   #787
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Yes. Adam Mickiewicz[/URL]) is not so important figure in Lithuania, particularly today. We do not consider him as a exlusive person.
It seem that he more or less knew lithuanian language - his lectures notes confirms this point.
I agree that AM is not important figure for contemporary Lithuania, and it's understanding. As I know his notes do not confirm that he knew lithuanian language. He was an expert in slavic languages esp. russian.
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Old April 16th, 2013, 01:48 PM   #788
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Back to Protestant Masuria...

Lutheran church in Rańsk/Rheinswein (built in 1815-1817)






Names of people killed during Napoleonic Wars and WW1




Lutheran church in Pasym/Passenheim (built in 1765-1775)




City Hall in Pasym/Passenheim (built in 1854-1855)
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Old April 16th, 2013, 03:07 PM   #789
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Lutheran (now, Catholic) church in Sterławki Wielkie/Groß Stürlack (built in 1832, Masuria)







In 1806, the region was inhabited by 1459 Poles (and 17 Germans).
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Old April 16th, 2013, 04:12 PM   #790
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Is this church still lutheran?
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Old April 16th, 2013, 04:16 PM   #791
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Is this church still lutheran?
With Our Lady of Częstochowa? Rather not.
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Old April 16th, 2013, 04:27 PM   #792
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With Our Lady of Częstochowa? Rather not.
Churches in Rańsk and Pasym are still Lutheran, however one in Sterławki Wielkie is sadly now converted to Catholic. Many of around 160,000 Protestant Masurians living in Poland after the war, emigrated to more prosperous West Germany in the late 50s, 60s and 70s That is why huge number of churches in Masuria have been converted...

Lutheran diocese of Masuria


On the contrary, churches, cemeteries and road-side altars of Catholic Warmia are in really good hands and are well taken care of.
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Old April 16th, 2013, 07:19 PM   #793
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ALERT:

The poster/member who used to show "visit my blogs...Alte Berlin, Alte Potsdam, etc" has a mean virus associated with those links.
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Old April 16th, 2013, 08:06 PM   #794
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Old April 16th, 2013, 10:16 PM   #795
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KonstantinasŠirvydas View Post
Ironically, Mickevičius is probably not Lithuanian, nor Polish or Belarussian, but.. Jew.
P.S. Mickevičius never called himself Polish.
You can be a Pole and a Jew at the same time. It amazes me how narrow minded some people are.
Mickiewicz never called himself Mickevičius. His views are well reflected in his works like Books of the Polish Nation and Polish Pilgrimage (1832) or “Prelekcje paryskie” about Slavic literature, Polish messianism etc. Unfortunately I don’t know if it was translated into Lithuanian.

Ps. A. Mickiewicz autograph:


EOT

Gotlieb Daniel Kullack palace in Ublik (10 kilometres north of Orzysz/Arys)

Built in 1800 (rebuilt in 1848 – 1917). Renovated in 1993.

History:
http://www.orzysz.pl/index.php?k=305

Palace

Author: Marek and Ewa Wojciechowscy


Author: Marek and Ewa Wojciechowscy


http://www.ublik.pl/


http://www.polskaniezwykla.pl/web/ga...to,134386.html


http://www.ciekawemazury.pl/

Cemetery gate

Author: Marek and Ewa Wojciechowscy

Lake Ublik

Author: Marek and Ewa Wojciechowscy

Aerial view

Author: -=aRBi=-
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Old April 16th, 2013, 10:46 PM   #796
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Now, if you don't mind (and regardless if or what you would reply), I won't be occupying this thread anymore with our slight off-topic...
Sorry, I've changed my mind... Can I join again?
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Old April 16th, 2013, 11:02 PM   #797
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"Mickevičius never called himself Polish"

Similarly as Juzefas Pilsudskis, Česlovas Milošas and others. We've got always problems with you, Lithuanians
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Old April 17th, 2013, 12:34 AM   #798
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Quote:
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I agree that AM is not important figure for contemporary Lithuania, and it's understanding. As I know his notes do not confirm that he knew lithuanian language. He was an expert in slavic languages esp. russian.
You are right and I agree with you. That's why i wrote "more or less". In his notes, AM several time cited lithuanian words as opposite to slavic. If you do not know the right explanation, you can not make a comparision. Grazyna (Gražina in Lith.) is lithuanian name etc. Despite the lack of knowledge in baltic mythology and paganism, it seems he knew many things at that time and this is very strange.
But as I said, AM is not so important figure to us. Yes, in schools we are reading him, but that's all. We have our badass Kristijonas Donelaitis and his "the Seasons"

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"Mickevičius never called himself Polish"

Similarly as Juzefas Pilsudskis, Česlovas Milošas and others. We've got always problems with you, Lithuanians

Well, Česlovas Milošas is quite difficult person. We can not call him Pole, neither lithuanian. He was some kind of mix of different cultures - Polish and Lithuanian (book "The Issa Valley"). According to T.Venclova - his close friend - he knew lithuanian language, he translated lithuanian poetry (Kazys Boruta - very difficult because of language-style he used) etc.

The are no doubts with his relative - Oskaras Milašius.

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Old April 17th, 2013, 12:55 AM   #799
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Old April 17th, 2013, 12:58 AM   #800
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On the contrary, churches, cemeteries and road-side altars of Warmia are in really good hands and are well taken care of.
That is nice for the current population and to experience the places in real time. But, again, most of the pre-war majorly German cemeteries were bulldozed, dug up and trashed and burned. The headstones were usually ground up for gravel or piled up and forested areas and left to be grown over. So anyone looking for ancestry data from cemeteries is out of luck.
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