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Old April 17th, 2013, 01:03 AM   #801
greg111
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Well, sometimes I think the important and longterme influence of the other culture makes problem with selfidentity. Another result of mix of different cultures - Polish and Lithuanian - Stanislovas Narutavičius, brother of polish president. Here, you've got the problem.
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Old April 17th, 2013, 01:53 AM   #802
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Old April 17th, 2013, 02:06 AM   #803
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Lutheran church in Łęguty/Langgut (built in 1737-1738, Masuria)






Names of people killed in WW1


Interior looks really good, but exterior needs a bit more tlc.
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Old April 17th, 2013, 08:56 AM   #804
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Originally Posted by keepthepast View Post
That is nice for the current population and to experience the places in real time. But, again, most of the pre-war majorly German cemeteries were bulldozed, dug up and trashed and burned. The headstones were usually ground up for gravel or piled up and forested areas and left to be grown over. So anyone looking for ancestry data from cemeteries is out of luck.

Yup, German cemeteries usually look like this (Reszel, formerly Rößel):



Or Szczytno/Ortelsburg:



But Masurians and their heritage were useful for the propaganda of the Polish Commies, that's why the cemeteries are preserved.
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Old April 17th, 2013, 10:04 AM   #805
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[QUOTE=Karasek;102357754]Yup, German cemeteries usually look like this (Reszel, formerly Rößel):

There are also abandoned polish/catholic cementaries that does not look much better. Usually the simple graves whithout prolonged fees are removed probably after 30 years and in the case of tomb - after a 100 years.
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Old April 17th, 2013, 01:36 PM   #806
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Many majorly Polish cemeteries in Kresy have been "bulldozed, dug up and trashed and burned" (e.g. Catholic cemetery in Stanislawow) as well. Also, Nazis had a lot of experience in destroying historic cemeteries...e.g. Catholic cemetery in Brzesc.

Of course, if there's a large Polish (or Catholic) minority (sometimes, majority) then cemeteries are well looked after...

Grodno (now, Belarus)
image hosted on flickr

032. Grodno. Cmentarz Pobernardyński. Kwatera żołnierzy WP. Stan z 2010r. by PolandMFA, on Flickr

Poles in Belarus


Vilnius (Lithuania)




Poles in Lithuania
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Old April 17th, 2013, 04:19 PM   #807
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And again, back to Masuria...

Lutheran church in Wejsuny/Weissuhnen (built in 1898)










If you are wondering, churches in Łęguty and Wejsuny are still Lutheran.
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Old April 17th, 2013, 08:00 PM   #808
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One of only a few Catholic churches in Protestant Masuria (built in 1925)...

Warpuny/Warpuhnen (in 1885 inhabited by 2570 Poles and 550 Germans)




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Old April 17th, 2013, 11:59 PM   #809
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Some road-side altars in Wozlawki/Wusslack (Catholic Warmia)










Overall, there are about 1600 preserved road-side altars in Warmia.
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Old April 18th, 2013, 12:03 PM   #810
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An old style house in Kaborno (Warmia)




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Old April 18th, 2013, 09:19 PM   #811
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Boundary pillar between Warmia (Kingdom of Poland) and Masuria (Kingdom of Prussia) from 1750...




It is located near Święta Lipka/Heiligelinde.
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Old April 19th, 2013, 02:28 AM   #812
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katsuma View Post
Sorry, I've changed my mind... Can I join again?
I can see no objections, so I'd be happy to let our Samogitian friends drink from my well of wisdom...

Quote:
Originally Posted by KonstantinasŠirvydas View Post
2) Look back at the book by Polish author Helena Turska. It says clearly and cite numerous authors, that before mid. 19th century - Vilnius with suburbs was exceptionally Lithuanian, with some minorities of Jews, Russians, Tatars. Most of researchers don't even bother to name other nationalities, than twose four, as these were, quoting Balinski "so small, that even not worth a mention".
As usual, you don't refer to the sources, which I provided, and pull some irrelevant arguments instead.

1/ We were talking about the ethnic status in the city of Wilno, not the region.

2/ Michał Baliński? Did not know him before... However, why not Mykolas Balinskis, not Polish, but a Lietuvos historian?

Anyway, in his publication he writes: "Mieszkańcy miasta Wilna co do ich rodu są Litwini, Rossyanie, Niemcy i Żydzi".

http://www.polona.pl/dlibra/doccontent?id=1824

The book was issued in 1835 (i.e. 4 years after the November Uprising and 3 years after the University of Wilno/Vilna was shut down by Russian Tsar Nikolay) and duly approved by Tsarist censorship (see p. 2). I smell a rat.

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Originally Posted by KonstantinasŠirvydas View Post
And only at the end of the 19th century, local population was heavily Russified and Polonized, but still, census of 1897 find the majority of Vilnius city inhabitants - Jews and Lithuanians in all the suburbs of Vilnius.
You can't help without lying, can you?

Russian census 1897:
Quote:
City of Vilna - Jews (40.0%), Poles (30.1%), Russians (20.9%), Belarusians (4.3%), Lithuanians (2.1%)
Wow, our brave Poles must've been mega-strong in demographic development to achieve - in the space of 60 years - such population level in Wilno, despite heavy Russification and persecution after two failed uprisings. Mr Mykolas Balinskis was surely turning in his grave...

And then, in the next 19 years they (Poles) hit the 50% threshold of the city population.

PS. And where did you get this bit on "heavy Polonization" within the territory of Russian Empire in late 19th century from?

PS2. I have found some interesting articles on the website "lituanus.org", which give indication about the presence & influence of Poles in Wilno & Lithuania, in partincular in early 19th century (A historiographic survey of Lithuanian-Polish relations, Napoleon's Lithuanian forces, The clash of nationalities at the University of Vilnius 1803-32). Again, Mr Mykolas Balinskis would be turning in his grave...

Quote:
Originally Posted by KonstantinasŠirvydas View Post
9) As I am lazy, here is my last present for angry chauvinists. German map, showing East Prussia, Lithuania and Poland. Ethnicities in the mid 19th century.
Congratulations.
http://www.davidrumsey.com/maps5308.html
Ethnographische Karte von Europa. Berghaus, Heinrich, 1847
http://i45.************/2ppm0k3.jpg
I am probably less lazy, so here are some other German maps from AD 1876-1900.


Lithuanian language area in 1876


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Li...%281876%29.JPG


Polish language area in 1880


http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...nguage1880.png


Languages of German Empire in 1900


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sp...Reich_1900.png


Oh, and let us not forget about the map of Kingdom of Poland (Congress Poland) 1815-1915:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congress_Poland
___

Quote:
Originally Posted by KonstantinasŠirvydas View Post
Ironically, Mickevičius is probably not Lithuanian, nor Polish or Belarussian, but.. Jew.
P.S. Mickevičius never called himself Polish.
Mickiewicz was a Jew? Well, you can even claim he was a Moldovan, it doesn't really matter.

And he may have never called himself Polish, I don't know. But considering himself a Lithuanian he did not have to, as it was clear for him that the then Lithuanians (not to be mistaken with contemporary Lithuanians aka Samogitians) were part of the Polish family.

In his work "Books of the Polish Nation and Polish Pilgrimage" (issued in 1832) he wrote:
Quote:
Litwin i Mazur bracia są; czyż kłócą się bracia o to, iż jednemu na imie Władysław, drugiemu Witowt? nazwisko ich jedne jest, nazwisko Polaków.
A Lithuanian and Masur are brothers, for they have one name - the name of Poles.

In 1817 our honourable Mickevičius was the co-founder of a Polish secret student organisation "Filomaci" (The Philomaths) at the University of Wilno/Vilna...

In 1848 in Rome our dear Mickevičius formed a military unit called The Polish Legion, whose set of rules included provisions i.a. on the resurrection of free Poland.

...and so on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prosp View Post
Well, Česlovas Milošas is quite difficult person. We can not call him Pole, neither lithuanian.
We?

Quote from Miłosz:
Quote:
My family in the sixteenth century already spoke Polish, just as many families in Finland spoke Swedish and in Ireland English, so I am a Polish not a Lithuanian poet.


Quote:
Originally Posted by KonstantinasŠirvydas View Post
Anyway, I am not a fan of Mickiewicz or whatever Romantic writers/poets, nor I care on Mickevičius nationality. Their creative works are usually lame (Mickiewicz, Maironis, etc.). Modernists like Škėma or Parulskis for the win.
Why would you, dear Samogitian friend, understand Polish Romanticism?

"Modernists like Škėma or Parulskis for the win."

You got me there, man. Škėma & Parulskis kick ass! (I am dead serious now )
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Old April 19th, 2013, 02:39 AM   #813
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I thought you resigned, no?
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Old April 19th, 2013, 03:02 AM   #814
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I thought you resigned, no?
I did (for a day or two). And then I missed you guys...
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Old April 19th, 2013, 03:04 AM   #815
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Old April 19th, 2013, 03:39 AM   #816
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Very reliable and interesting. Why we need scholars, when we have poets and anti-Semite journalists
Anti-semite journalists? Ayayay, do those journalists not like Jews or do Jews not like them? Or maybe anti-zionist? Tell me, dear expert on anti-semitism, I'd be delighted to hear.

PS. In case you haven't noticed, the outer world has changed a little bit, so tagging someone as an anti-semite doesn't necessarily take away their credibility, despite the intention of those giving the tags.

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P.S. Mickiewicz as a writer is boring and crappy, naively-sensitive read and I am sad, that so many trees are cut to print that s...t. Have a nice day
I truly respect your opinion.

And, indeed, you may be sad about the trees, as AFAIK those had been cut down mainly in Samogitia (some sacred ones, no doubt).

Bye-bye now.
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Old April 19th, 2013, 04:34 AM   #817
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Old April 19th, 2013, 09:26 AM   #818
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"Oh, and let us not forget about the map of Kingdom of Poland (Congress Poland) 1815-1915"

And map of Duchy of Warsaw (1809-1815):
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Old April 19th, 2013, 09:29 AM   #819
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Boundary pillar between Warmia (Kingdom of Poland) and Masuria (Kingdom of Prussia) from 1750...




It is located near Święta Lipka/Heiligelinde.
That is fascinating. I am surprised it survived through the years.
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“The meaning of earthly existence lies not, as we have grown used to thinking, in prospering but in the development of the soul.”
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Old April 19th, 2013, 10:39 AM   #820
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Mickiewicz as a writer is boring and crappy, naively-sensitive read and I am sad, that so many trees are cut to print that s...t. Have a nice day
As a free man you do have a right to have your own opinion and I do respect that but...
Mr. Vilnius Guide - I am personaly sad that there were so many trees cut to published your toilet paper guides.
Do not have a nice day
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