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Old April 19th, 2013, 10:48 AM   #821
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TimothyR View Post
That is fascinating. I am surprised it survived through the years.
I have to admit that over 300 years of Polish rule in Warmia and Prussian rule in Masuria left a lot of architectural differences and border is clearly visible even today. While territories of Warmia have a large number of Catholic Baroque churches and road-side altars, Masuria is full of historic Lutheran churches. Actually, only old wooden houses in the villages look similar. I hope that people will understand diverse history of both places and will appreciate/preserve architecture.

To be honest, the only "kick-ass" Catholic Baroque church in Masuria (maybe even whole Duchy of Prussia) was built in Sw.Lipka, near the border, by Stefan Sadorski (consecrated by Warmian bishop Szymon Rudnicki).


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Old April 19th, 2013, 01:21 PM   #822
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Mickiewicz was a Jew? Well, you can even claim he was a Moldovan, it doesn't really matter.

And he may have never called himself Polish, I don't know. But considering himself a Lithuanian he did not have to, as it was clear for him that the then Lithuanians (not to be mistaken with contemporary Lithuanians aka Samogitians) were part of the Polish family.
Mickiewicz dreams, that's all. He considered lithuanians as szlachta, i.e nobility or class of people in romanticism (romantic) way and in strong relationship with Poland. Why he dreamt about it? We all know why and we all know historical situation in XIX cent. of PL-LT. Same "perception" was popular in XX cent first half. Mainly, it was a problem, because you can not reanimate or restore a historical anachronism when geopolitical situation have changed absolutely. In such case it was easier to create a fictional person or make an emphasis on historical relationship based on one culture and on one class (szlachta). So when you are making a (funny )) comparision between old/contemporary Lithuanians, firstly tell me, my dear neighbour, was a szlachta a majority or minority? In present day Lithuanias territory, in GDL, in Poland? We all know the answer .



But you are ignoring another very important fact, that during era of romanticism, we had to different Romanticism schools - Daukantas and Polish authors. And it clearly shows two definitely different opinions about nation and state per se generally and separately and on the other hand – different approach towards so called Zeitgeist (Daukantas work is a core work considering nation/state). By the way, I must point out that Daukantas (and others) as scientist was more accurate and had more competence in making conclusions and using historical sources. That is understandable why – check his bio . So don’t exaggerate someone’s opinion, particularly when we are talking about minority and (ex) noble class of people and when such opinion was/is based on fictional-romanticism-influenced ideology. They always had a different point of view. This obstacle do not make things clear and eventually misconduct people. Btw, nobility in XIX-XX had less influence in Lithuania (to society which is less hierarchy than in Poland).

On the other hand, we can mention such people Jurgis Pliateris (Jerzy Konstanty hrabia Plater-Broel z Broelu herbu Plate) or Liudvikas Jucevičius and many other (Tiškevičiai, Romeriai etc). They come from noble families, but they rejected the pro-pole outlook and spoke lithuanian. An essence is that in this way we can see that there were NO single position on the issue WHO the hell THEY (nobility) were (GDL nobility). So please, next time do not speak about Lithuanians (your words: “ <…> not to be mistaken with contemporary Lithuanians aka Samogitians”) and better think about what you talking. I believe you are not so stupid, and if you have some question – maybe ask…This is a question of matter. Btw, you can find Vytautas The Great letter to Ordin I think you will find it very interesting.
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Old April 19th, 2013, 02:29 PM   #823
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Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
To be honest, the only "kick-ass" Catholic Baroque church in Masuria (maybe even whole Duchy of Prussia) was built in Sw.Lipka, near the border, by Stefan Sadorski (consecrated by Warmian bishop Szymon Rudnicki).

Both were dead long before this church was built. What you mean is a small chapel that existed before this church. This Baroque church was built at the end of the 18th century by Tyrolian Georg Ertly. The frescos are by Matthias Johann Meyer, the most important son of the town, while the organ is one of the few remaining works of Johann Josua Mosengel, the most important Prussian organ builder of the 18th century.
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Old April 19th, 2013, 02:42 PM   #824
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Vielen Danke, dass Sie das aufgeklärt haben
Jerzy Ertli
Matthias Johann Meyer

And as I wrote before, there are actually no more large Catholic churches in the former Protestant Duchy of Prussia, wheras they were built in large numbers in Poland...

Like for example mentioned before church in Krosno (Warmia) founded by Teodor Potocki.


And even in places such as Winnica/Vinnytsia (part of Kingdom of Poland at the time, now Ukraine...over 400km from the Polish border)

* Formerly Catholic church founded by Marcin Grocholski is now converted to Eastern Orthodox church

or Posiń/Pasiene (in Polish Livonia, now Latvia...over 450km from the Polish border).

Baroque Catholic church in Posiń/Pasiene was founded by Jan Andrzej Borch.
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Old April 19th, 2013, 03:13 PM   #825
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"In matters of taste, there can be no disputes" but as I remember the yellowisch paint of Świeta Lipka/Heiligelinde it was (IMHO) more apropriate.
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Old April 19th, 2013, 05:24 PM   #826
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Old April 19th, 2013, 06:02 PM   #827
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Walt Kowalski - interesting character

Masonic Lodge in Kętrzyn/Rastenburg ( built in 1860-64)


author: K.Chojnacki

"Drei Thore des Tempels"- renovated in 1999









author: Mieczysław Kalski

The building became the seat of Arno Holz Polish-German association.

Arno Holz was a German naturalist poet and dramatist (he was born in Rastenburg/Kętrzyn in 1863).

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Old April 19th, 2013, 06:17 PM   #828
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Old April 19th, 2013, 06:44 PM   #829
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State known as a Res Publica Serenissima was created by political nations of Polish Crown and Grand Duchy of Lithuania. Polish and Lithuanian/Ruthenian gentry and noblemen decided to constitute a Union. Kingdom of Poland was a political, economic and cultural centre of the Union. So it is not a surprise that the great majority of Lithuanian/Ruthenian gentry and noblemen have polonized themselves by their free choice. The same process applied to many people of different origin who came to Poland or later to the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth ( Germans, Jews, Dutch, Italians, Ormians, Bohemians, Tatars and others).

Gente Lithuanus/Rhutenus/Germanus/Judaeus etc., natione Polonus - this is how those people called themselves. They have enriched the Crown and the entire Commonwealth and took important part in creating something that is known today as Polish culture/heritage.

That's why Mickiewicz is a Polish poet, Kopernik a Polish scientist, Chopin a Polish pianist, Lem a Polish writer and Kościuszko a Polish patriot.

Grand Duchy of Lithuania is a common heritage of nowadays Poles, Lithuanians and Belarussians, Ukrainians (Ruthenians). This heritage is admired and appreciated in Poland while in Lithuania it is treated once as a reason of pride and once as a remembrance of betrayal. Let's hope this schizophrenic Lithuanian attitude will change for their own good. At the end of the day it's better to be a spiritual part of so Polish Grand Duchy and Commonwealth than so not Grand Lithuanian Lithuania.
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Old April 19th, 2013, 07:16 PM   #830
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Old April 19th, 2013, 07:22 PM   #831
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Yes, but no at the same time. There were a lot of szlachta, who were pro-Lithuanian and "separatist". There were tens of nobles, who began publishing Lithuanian books, calendars, poems, translate Polish books, etc. in the beginning of the 19th century. One noble guy even prepared a project in the University of Vilnius of establishing Lithuanian language Faculty, Department, but it was rejected by Tzarist government. Also, the mojority of nobles were bi-linguar and perfectly knew not only Polish language, as say chauvinists, but also Lithuanian, or even 5, 6, 7 languages. To name a few Lithuanian nobles, who were participating in the creation of Lithuanian-language culture: Kazimieras Kontrimas, Liudvikas Jacevičius, Laurynas Ivinskis, Mikalojus Akelaitis, Karolina Praniauskaitė. Of course, these were only from the first half of the 19th century, second half is filled with these persons like Mečislovas Davainis-Silvestraitis, Gabrielius Landsbergis–Žemkalnis, Jurgis Šlapelis, Danielius Alseika, Povilas Višinskis, Martynas Kukta and many more (all from Vilnius).
Typical noble example would be Zigmantas Mineika/Zygmunt Mineyko from Vilnius region. He knew perfectly these languages: Polish, Lithuanian, Russsian, French, Turkish, Greek.
Jonas Kazimieras Vilčinskis, in Poland known only as Jan Kazimierz, in the memoirs of his nephew, is said to be purely Lithuanian, what mean, speaking in Lithuanian language at home, with relatives, friends and... Issuing picture books with Polish writings. What would say Polish superpatriot, seeing these inscriptions? Probably, that Vilčinskis was huge Polish patriot.
You made my point clear. What i had in mind was that Mickiewicz sympathized to those who were more associated with Polish culture despite the fact that at that time were many noble people (and not only nobles - let's say that in XIX cent. were many WELL EDUCATED (better than some members of szlachta) non-noble persons) who rejected such perception of state's future and in spirit of romanticism they had different imagination of language status, their nationality etc.
On the other hand, i think we must distinguish nobility: there were pro Polish, pro Lithuanian; Tiškevičiai - one branch of their family went Lithuanian way, another - Polands.

Quote:
The most interesting thing is that Lithuania always had one the the largest percent of noble people in the whole Europe. Standard number of nobles in Poland would be only ~5% (higher only in Mazovia), while in Vilnius region - up to 15% and in Samogitia - up to 20%.
Where in Vilnius region most nobles were bilingual in the 19th century, in Samogitia almost exceptionally Lithuanian nobles.
Well, many of them were not large landowners. Particularly in Lithuania. Due to old historical formation of ownership (rights). Many of them had no connection with Poland. In my previous message i wrote about those who were largely involved in Polish cultural (because of lands, estates in Poland, for historical nostalgia and so on).
I think that some people do not know history of GDL (particularly of the part of present-day Lithuania), especially very narrow facts or cultural, mentally aspects of Lithuania society per se and it's historical development (traditions, positions etc). So they look from Polish point of view and then they make the first mistake.

Quote:
This guy is clearly Belarussian or of Belarussian origin.
I can lay a bet.
Anyway, here is an Act of Jogaila on the Baptism of Lithuania. Extractions about Lithuanians and Ruthenians aka Belarussians:
I though about it too, but i hope he do not believe in diletantic/pseudo history
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Old April 19th, 2013, 07:27 PM   #832
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"...and the old union will flourish in its new forms, said Konstancja Skirmuntt”. She couldn't stop thinking about union?
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Old April 19th, 2013, 07:35 PM   #833
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"new forms", means "friendship", "partnership", "cultural exchange", "celebration of important dates together",...
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Old April 19th, 2013, 07:42 PM   #834
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Strategic partnership
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Old April 19th, 2013, 10:42 PM   #835
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
I have to admit that over 300 years of Polish rule in Warmia and Prussian rule in Masuria left a lot of architectural differences and border is clearly visible even today. While territories of Warmia have a large number of Catholic Baroque churches and road-side altars, Masuria is full of historic Lutheran churches. Actually, only old wooden houses in the villages look similar. I hope that people will understand diverse history of both places and will appreciate/preserve architecture.

To be honest, the only "kick-ass" Catholic Baroque church in Masuria (maybe even whole Duchy of Prussia) was built in Sw.Lipka, near the border, by Stefan Sadorski (consecrated by Warmian bishop Szymon Rudnicki).



It certainly is beautiful.

I am very impressed by both the Catholic and the Lutheran churches that have survived and are in excellent condition.

I am very interested in church architecture and design - I know I am always talking about it on this forum - and I have learned a lot here. Very nice.
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Old April 20th, 2013, 01:42 AM   #836
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Film Elzė iš Gilijos (Elze from Gilija(this village now is in Kaliningrad d.))
Views of Curonian spit and Minor Lithuania



All film here:
http://www.lrt.lt/mediateka/irasas/28549
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>> MY PHOTO THREAD ABOUT LITHUANIA
>>MY PHOTOS FROM KLAIPĖDA (MEMEL)
>>> OLD LITHUANIA




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Old April 20th, 2013, 11:40 AM   #837
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"I am very impressed by both the Catholic and the Lutheran churches that have survived and are in excellent condition."

You might find the maps below very interesting

Religion in Central Europe in 1560...


Religion in Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth in 1750...

Yellow - Latin Catholic Church
Light Green - Greek Catholic Church
Dark Green - Orthodox

Situation of the Catholic Church in the territories of Russian partition - link
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Old April 20th, 2013, 01:18 PM   #838
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Religion in Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth in 1750...
Firstly, this map is rubbish for at least two reasons.

Secondly, but its more important and should be firstly: what does it have to do with East Prussia??
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Old April 20th, 2013, 05:20 PM   #839
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katsuma
Mickiewicz was a Jew? Well, you can even claim he was a Moldovan, it doesn't really matter.

And he may have never called himself Polish, I don't know. But considering himself a Lithuanian he did not have to, as it was clear for him that the then Lithuanians (not to be mistaken with contemporary Lithuanians aka Samogitians) were part of the Polish family.
Mickiewicz dreams, that's all.
That's not the point. We were talking about the national identity of Mickiewicz himself and did not look at his vision (or dreams, as you call it) for the resurrection of Rzeczpospolita Polska in a different political environment.

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So please, next time do not speak about Lithuanians (your words: “<…> not to be mistaken with contemporary Lithuanians aka Samogitians”) and better think about what you talking.
Well, I had thought it over long time before, as we already had a few discussions on similar topic, like the one in the thread on Classic Architecture of Lithuania (page 3 to page 6).

While discussing the comparison of old Lithuanians from the Grand Duchy of Lithuania with contemporary Lithuanian nationals (aka Samogitians ), I can basically copy my views and sources given back then. As I said, it had been discussed before, but I am happy to repeat same as many times as necessary.

And so:

1/ Lithuanians in historical meaning (Polish Wikipedia)

Quote:
Narodziny narodowości nowolitewskiej (Creation of new-Lithuanian nationality)

Znaczenie czwarte obejmuje okres po uwłaszczeniu chłopstwa w 1864 roku. W wyniku uwłaszczenia powstał wywodzący się ze litewskiego chłopstwa etniczny naród nowolitewski – Litwini, posługujący się językiem litewskim. Wsparcia temu procesowi udzieliły władze carskie, które po upadku powstania styczniowego, chcąc uniknąć kolejnego, przystąpiły do intensywnej rusyfikacji, m.in. poprzez zakaz nauczania w innych poza rosyjskim językach, co oznaczało, biorąc pod uwagę stan uprzedni, zakaz nauczania w języku polskim. Uznając, że naród litewski to tylko chłopi, wprowadzono wyjątkowo na obszarze północnej Suwalszczyzny (obecnie litewska jej część) do szkół (zgodnie z zasadą dziel i rządź, zob. Gimnazjum w Mariampolu) język litewski i starano się kształcić młodzież w oderwaniu od kultury polskiej, która w owym czasie niepodzielnie dominowała na ziemiach b. Wielkiego Księstwa Litewskiego. Szkoła taka jak Gimnazjum w Mariampolu stała się kuźnią narodowej elity, która propagowała ruch nowolitewski i tworzyła u schyłku I wojny światowej nowe państwo.

Na skutek tego procesu doszło do konfliktu dwóch sposobów rozumienia terminu „litewski”. Tradycyjnie rozumiano „litewskość” jako odmianę szeroko pojętej polskości, Nowolitwini rozumieli natomiast „litewskość” w sposób przeciwstawny do sensu tradycyjnego, jako cechę narodowościową bądź etniczno-językową. Nowolitwini nawiązywali do okresu historycznego sprzed pełnej rutenizacji Wielkiego Księstwa Litewskiego, kiedy to język litewski wraz ze żmudzkim jego dialektem nie został jeszcze całkowicie wyparty przez język ruski. (...)
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Litwini...u_historycznym
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2/ We, Lithuanians (article from the Polish newspaper "Rzeczpospolita")

Quote:
Nie przez przypadek w roku 1927, gdy Piłsudski zjechał do Genewy na sesję Ligi Narodów, swoje przemówienie dotyczące sporu o Wilno zaczął od słów: „My, Litwini...". I choć nie mówił po litewsku, był wówczas o wiele większym Litwinem niż jego adwersarze z republiki kowieńskiej.
When Józef Piłsudski came to Geneva in 1927 to deliver a speech on the Wilno dispute between Poland and Lithuanian Republic, he began by saying "We, Lithuanians...".

Quote:
(...) Właśnie dlatego poeta mógł z taką miłością napisać po polsku „Litwo, ojczyzno moja...". „Mickiewiczowi, gdy przedstawiał się, że jest Litwinem, do głowy nawet przyjść nie mogło, że to znaczy nie jestem Polakiem – pisał Stanisław Mackiewicz. – Wprost przeciwnie. Przez podkreślenie, że jest Litwinem, Mickiewicz tylko chciał powiedzieć, że jest najlepszym, najbardziej patriotycznym rodzajem Polaka, najbardziej Polskę kochającym i najmniej z niewolą pogodzonym".
When Mickiewicz wrote "Lithuania, my homeland...", he could not imagine that it might mean he wasn't Polish.

On contemporary Lithuanian nationalism:
Quote:
Nacjonalizm zawsze rodzi się i istnieje na kontrze do innego narodu. Nie inaczej było z nacjonalizmem litewskim, który rodził się w opozycji do Polski, a raczej należałoby rzec, w opozycji do mówiących po polsku Litwinów. Jego wyznawcom chodziło o wydostanie się spod polskich wpływów politycznych i kulturowych, ale także o odebranie gruntów właścicielom ziemskim. Nacjonalizm litewski był więc zarówno ruchem narodowym, jak i rewolucyjno-socjalnym.
Perhaps you can tell me, how many properties (real estates) were confiscated by the Lithuanian state after WW1 from the nobles & landlords (mainly Polish), who did not feel attached to newly established Lithuania?

Quote:
Państwo kowieńskie wypowiedziało polskości prawdziwą wojnę. Była ona bezwzględnie rugowana i wykorzeniania przez całe 20 lat jego istnienia. Litwini z Kowna w roku 1938 czy 1939 z dumą mówili, że dzięki ich polityce młode pokolenie nie mówi już po polsku. Szczycili się więc tym, że ci młodzi ludzie nie byli w stanie czytać w oryginale wierszy Adama Mickiewicza. Poety, którego to samo państwo kowieńskie uważało za swojego wieszcza.
War against Polishness by the Interwar Lithuania (Litwa Kowieńska). Their officials were proud that young people could not read the poems of Adam Mickiewicz in original version (Polish).

Quote:
Historia starego sługi (History of an old butler)

Oto charakterystyczna scena z epoki opisana po latach przez Stanisława Mackiewicza: „Hotel w Kownie został przejęty przez państwo, był tam stary służący. Służył kilkadziesiąt lat, dostał wymówienie, bo nie mówił ani słowa po litewsku. Pewien warszawista, korespondent »Gazety Polskiej«, ulitował się nad losem starca, poszedł do dyrekcji hotelu w jego sprawie.

– Nam samym jest przykro – powiada dyrekcja – istotnie człowiek tu służył kilkadziesiąt lat. Ale pan rozumie: jesteśmy hotelem państwowym, reprezentacyjnym, a on tylko po polsku i po polsku. Niech go pan nauczy kilku najprostszych słów po litewsku: cena pokoju, mydło, śniadanie, obiad, dzień dobry, do widzenia – a my go zostawimy.

Uradowany warszawista idzie do starego.
– A nie może to być.
– Dlaczego? Cóż znowu, mój Boże, ja sam was nauczę tych kilku słów. Zobaczycie, że to nie tak trudno.
– Jak ja mogę się trochę po litewsku nauczyć, kiedy ja doskonale po litewsku mówię?".
An old butler in one of the hotels in Kaunas/Kowno, after the creation of new Lithuanian state in 1918, was supposed to learn some few words in Lithuanian, in order to save his job. He replied in Polish: "how can I learn Lithuanian language, when I perfectly speak Lithuanian?"

http://www.rp.pl/artykul/914357.html?print=tak&p=0
____

3/ Norman Davies: Lithuanians must realize they are not the only heirs to historic Lithuania

Quote:
Nowadays, people hear the name, the Grand Duchy of Lithuania. They know there is a country called Lithuania and they think it's the same thing. I was provoking them into reflecting that the old Grand Duchy of Lithuania was rather different from the present-day Republic of Lithuania.
Quote:
Present-day Lithuanians should understand that they are not the only successors to the historic Lithuania.Vilnius was largely a Polish city until 1945-1946. There was a very big Jewish community. It is all part of your history.
http://www.15min.lt/en/article/cultu...nia-528-205256
____

4/ Šarūnas Liekis: Lithuanian identity and the riddle of General Lucjan Želigowski

Quote:
Želigowski's was an old family coming from Ashmyany (currently part of Belarus), its roots go back to the 16th century. An entry from 1623 in Lithuanian chronicles reads: “Jakob Želigowski from Kimbor estate came with a horse, armour, helmet, and harquebus.”
Quote:
It is also noteworthy that Pilsudski called himself Lithuanian and was puzzled until the end of his life about what all these peasants and Augustinas Voldemaras (prime minister in the inter-war Republic of Lithuania) had in common with the Lithuanian nation.
Quote:
By speculating retrospectively and identifying ourselves only with current forms of Lithuanianness, we cross out from our history all cities, crafts, wars. Since if we consider as Lithuanian only things created by Lithuanian-speakers – if we neglect to see identity shifts and changes in its forms – we are nothing more than a folklorized culture of wooden farm implements.
Quote:
It presented a great dilemma for Želigowski, too, who repeated in many interviews that he was still a Lithuanian. Sure, his saying so was a cover for the true goal and the point of his operation, but it is still true that his words made perfect sense. “I was going to my home, I did not suddenly emerge from nowhere,” Želigowski said.
http://www.15min.lt/en/article/cultu...ski-528-261617

Quote:
Originally Posted by KonstantinasŠirvydas View Post
Here is a book in Polish for our dear friends from a szlachta dude. Please read the chapter about Lithuanian language
Full: http://www.epaveldas.lt/vbspi/biRecord.do?biRecordId=96
Now that's class. Learning about Lithuanian history & heritage from the books written in Polish language. What would you do without Polish, you poor thing...

Quote:
Originally Posted by KonstantinasŠirvydas View Post
This guy is clearly Belarussian or of Belarussian origin.
I can lay a bet.
Belarussian? Erm... no. What would you say if I was of Lithuanian aka Samogitian orgin?* Ever heard of the term "self-hating Lithuanian" (like self-hating Jew)?

* I am not, that was just rhetorical question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KonstantinasŠirvydas View Post
That means, that Husovianas, Skarga, Sorbievijus, Rotundas, Kraševskis and others are as Lithuanian as Pole (despite being ethnic Poles, enriched Lithuanian culture, created something, that is known as Lithuanian culture today, were patriots of Lithuania, etc.).
Those Poles enriched Lithuanian culture of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, which the Interwar & contemporary Lithuanian states are not the only heir of. See above.
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Old April 20th, 2013, 06:08 PM   #840
keepthepast
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Join Date: Oct 2009
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Originally Posted by Mruczek View Post
Firstly, this map is rubbish for at least two reasons.

Secondly, but its more important and should be firstly: what does it have to do with East Prussia??

....and thirdly, the map does not show the large jewish population in the areas.
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