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Old April 20th, 2013, 07:01 PM   #841
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Originally Posted by keepthepast View Post
....and thirdly, the map does not show the large jewish population in the areas.
Actually, I'm surprised too. According to that map, there were no regions with Jewish majority in 1750.
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Old April 20th, 2013, 08:05 PM   #842
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Yessss, cite more newspaper articles, please! More Rzeczpospolita, more Dzeinnik Warszawski or whatever newspapers You have in Poland.
And cite more Mickiewicz, Slowacki or whatever boring 19 c. Romantics You adore in Poland.

Mhm, Lithuanians are not Lithuanians, but Samogitians. And Poles are not Poles, but Lendians. And other lands of Poland are only occupied by Lendians, who were wearing bear skins. Old Poles have nothing to do with Poles who are Lendians. And the true Old Poles were Lithuanians.
Interesting story? Nice fairy tale? If I would be Henryk Sienkiewicz, would get Nobel Prize already.

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Belarussian?
Now I am absolutely sure, You are Belarusian without any doubt. I just smell Belarussian in You!

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Originally Posted by katsuma View Post
Those Poles enriched Lithuanian culture of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, which the Interwar & contemporary Lithuanian states are not the only heir of. See above.
The same as these Poles and Lithuanians have NOTHING to do with the Interwar & contemporary Polish states. Contemporary Poland is NOT continuation of the Union of the Two Nations nor it can be the heir of the GDL as this is just stupid.
This claim sounds as stupid as Germans in the future would say, that because they were in the EU in the 21st century and were much bigger and much more important member of the Union, with the way larger economy, so Poland and its culture is German culture and not Polish. What is more, all Poland should belong to Germany.
7th grade kid, go to the Warszawa castle to the excursion with Your teacher and explore the contemporary map of the 18th century with the state borders. Borders of the GDL are marked the same as the borders with other states e.g. Prussia, Russia, Hungary. Good night, Polish pride.
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Old April 20th, 2013, 08:09 PM   #843
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Norman Davies: Lithuanians must realize they are not the only heirs to historic Lithuania
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Old April 20th, 2013, 08:25 PM   #844
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I Like you Katsuma, really


That's not the point. We were talking about the national identity of Mickiewicz himself and did not look at his vision (or dreams, as you call it) for the resurrection of Rzeczpospolita Polska in a different political environment.

That is the point, my friend. His imagination of his nationality was based on polish culture. You know that. In essence, in XVIII-XIX, in Lithuania propria (northern part of GDL; present day Lithuania) we hand thousand of noble and non-noble people which rejected polish culture or even close relationship with former Crown and mainly went lithuanian (present day) way, putting themselves on ethnical (lithuanian) and linguistical understanding. As Konstantinas or I have mentioned earlier, there were NO single understanding of nationality. Pilsudski, Mickiewicz & others versus X number of others.
In other words, we can distinguish:
1. pro-Lithuanians (language, nationality, perception, traditions)
2. pro-Poles (people like Pilsudski, Zeligowski etc.)

You are trying to put an emphasis on pro-Polish perception, which, actually, was quite popular amongst some people (Pilsudski, Zeligowski etc), but that does not mean that they were Lithuanians or their nationality was “pure” and “true”. or even that THEY ARE real Lithuanians :)))))) It is even impossible to make such a conclusion. It can be a good part of discussion.
Samogitians? Do you see any differences between Samogitians and Lithuanians? Between “modern” Lithuanians and/or Samogitians?
If so, I think you do not know about Lithuania. Don’t make a fool of yourself ...

Ethnically Samogitians are the same Lithuanians. Vytauc once answered to your silly comparision … Perhaps it would be wise to copy it again…


Vytautas writes to Emperor Sigismund in 1420 (Codex epistolaris Vitoldi. Pars I, Nr.861)
...in terra Samaytarum, (...) que eciam est et semper fuit unum et idem cum terra Lythwaniae, nam unum ydeoma et uni homines. - Samogitia which is and always was one with Lithuania, because the same language and the same people.
Sed quod terra Samaytarum est terra inferior ad terram Lythwanie, ideo Szomoyth vocatur, quod in lythwanico terra inferior interpretatur. Samoyte vero Lythwaniam appelant Auxstote, quod est terra superior respectu terre Samaytarum. Because Samogitia lies lower than Lithuania it's called Žemaite which in Lthuanian means lowland. Samogitians call Lithuania Aukštaite which means highland because higher land than Samogitia.

Jogaila to the papal legate in 1421 (Lites ac Res gestae inter Polonos Ordinemque Cruciferorum. tomus tertius. Posnaniae, 1856)
"Samogitia and Sudovia (...) are an important part of the Lithuanian Principality and belong to the principality;
...
The inhabitants of this land speak Lithuanian. And they do not have any other language than Lithuanian.
...
Samogitia, that is, in Lithuanian - Lithuania lower."


Žemaičiai or Samogitians + Aukštaičiai (Highlanders) = Lithuanians ( XIII cent., till present day). Before GDL spread towards rutheniann lands, GERMAN/TEUTONIC chronicles wrote, for instance:
1. 1283, Peter von Dusburg, Chronicon terrae Prussiae:

In Lithuanian:
„1283 viešpaties metais, kai nuo karų su prūsų gentimis pradžios prabėgo jau 53 metai ir visos šios žemės giminės jau buvo nukariautos ir išvaikytos, žodžiu, kai čia nebeliko nė vieno, kuris nebūtų nuolankiai paklusęs šventajai Romos bažnyčiai, Teutonų ordino broliai šitaip pradėjo karą su ta galinga, kietasprande ir kariauti pratusia tauta, kuri gyveno Prūsijos žemės kaimynystėje, anapus Nemuno, Lietuvos žemėje.“

Polish Google Translation:

"Lord 1283, kiedywojna zpruskiegoplemieniaspędził53 lati wszystkieplemiona ziemizostał jużpokonany irozproszone, słowo, któretutajnie ma nikogokto by niepokorneposłuszeństwoŚwiętego Kościoła Rzymskiego, zakonubraciTak rozpoczęławojnę zsilny, upartyi walczyćprzyzwyczajony doludzi, którzy żyliw Prusach, gruntyw sąsiedztwie, po drugiej stronie Niemna, na Litwie, na ziemi. "

Mindaugas, the first King of Lithunia. From letters/Pope Buls (in latin):

Mindowe, dei gratia rex Lettowiae

Grand Duke Treniota (XIII century). From popes latters:
Trinota, filius regis Lethowinorum

Later, Grand Duke Gediminas :

Gedeminne, letwinorum et multorum ruthenorum rex. 1322

Gedeminne Dei gratia Letphanorum Ruthenorumque rex princeps et dux Semigallie

From popes letters (ex Avignon): Excellenti et magnifico viro Gedeminne, letwinorum et multorum ruthenoum regi illustri…

NB: letwinorum <…> et multorum ruthenorum rex

Vytautas the Great, XV cent.:
1422: Nos Alexander alias Witoldus eadem < Dei > gracia, magnus dux Lithwanie terrarumque Russie etc


Witowdus Dei gratia dux Lithuaniae dominus Trocensis, Luszensis


So, there are NO thing like Lithuanian aka Samogitian orgin. This is an absolute…nonsense. The roots of this nonsense comes from XIX-XX cent., when some people (who believed in restoration of Commonwealth) created legends…. Samogitia was and is only a region of Lithuania. Or You want to say that if I a from Utena, Ignalina, Zarasai, Panevėžys, Alytus etc – I am not Lithuanian? Or that in XIX cent., people from those lands/villgages were…Poles?

Lithuania – Lettonica. No one even make a dispute about it….only you, Katsuma…
And You may notice the changes of titles during Pagan Lithuania (as Baltic tribe confederation)/Kingdom of Lithuania/GDL. And I hope You will notice that ruthenians and lithuanians (pagans) were separated by the word “et”.



Perhaps you can tell me, how many properties (real estates) were confiscated by the Lithuanian state after WW1 from the nobles & landlords (mainly Polish), who did not feel attached to newly established Lithuania?

What do you know about LAND REFORM in Lithuania? Or about destroyed and useless estates after Germany invasion (WWI). Here you have an answer. Frankly, estates were confiscated from radicals and I honestly don’t give a sh… on that fact and on them. But more than half of “confiscation” cases were not confiscation at all, only property limitation (hectares).
Another thing, where is the problem? You love…feudalism relicts? Anachronisms in economics?
Many ex-noble people like Tiškevičiai, Pliateriai started their own business in their estates. Different economical climate.

War against Polishness by the Interwar Lithuania (Litwa Kowieńska). Their officials were proud that young people could not read the poems of Adam Mickiewicz in original version (Polish).

An so…? What’s your point? If I have more connections with Sweden, I prefer their culture. And vice versa. There were no direct or indirect war. Read a bit about conditions and environment Poles had in interwar Kaunas.
I can agree with you only on one mind: that it was some kind of conflict between two different cultures. Polish culture made a strong impact on the large noble families, which were particularly involved in Poland (Crown) affairs. Others or “smallers”, plus non-noble people were not affected by Polish culture (except in Vilnius). So why I must believe in Polish culture, why I must take it as an example? I = society in XVIII-XIX-XX cent.
Firstly, you must understand that Lithuanian society (like in Latvia)* can be characterized by such features like self-isolation, strong traditionalism, inner-conservatism: that why our language is the most archaic, that is why we have thousand of pre-christian folk songs or some of ours traditions did not change from pagan times. This was a link to traditions which reflects some specificity/aspects of society/community and can characterize / distinguish from another ; on the other hand – it can give a reasonable explanation about cultural influences.

* on the other hand, more or less, it was/is common to all nation of Northern part of Europe.

An old butler in one of the hotels in Kaunas/Kowno, after the creation of new Lithuanian state in 1918, was supposed to learn some few words in Lithuanian, in order to save his job. He replied in Polish: "how can I learn Lithuanian language, when I perfectly speak Lithuanian?"

That was his problem. If you live in UK, you speak English. If you are to stupid, well, no one gonna help you to save your job J Simple, isn’t it?

Zeligowski..I have said earlier: two different attitudes. He was living in his “wet dreams” and as Š. Liekys mentioned, his statement was a part of political manifestation. Zeligowski is Slavic surname by the way. Before 1918, GDL had an unofficial name (lex non scripta) – Lithuania, but the differences between nations (NB: in ethnic way) was made very early – in XIV-XVI cent.: Vytautas the Great, Goštautas, Jogaila et cetera.
There were jews, karaites, tatars, ruthenians, lithuanians, poles etc.
What does it mean? It means that you can be ruthenian, russian and bla bla, and you can call yourself Lithuanian (GDL). That’s all. Etnically, you belong to different "nation" (NB: confession matters). Here is the main thing. Pilsudski,Želigowsky used a common name to identify with mysterious people…of former GDL.

If Zeligowski home was Poland, it does not mean that Poland is my home.
My surname derives from old-prussian word, so maybe I am a Prussian after all?

Last edited by Prosp; April 20th, 2013 at 08:50 PM.
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Old April 20th, 2013, 08:40 PM   #845
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3/ Norman Davies: Lithuanians must realize they are not the only heirs to historic Lithuania
Yeah, right, and Great Britain must realize they are not the only heirs of historic Empire of the Great Britain. The real heirs are Indians and Pakistanis, as they were constituting the majority of the population and the majority of the territory. We all know, there is small state, called Great Britain, but India is the true heir of the Empire!

Genial logic! [of the author of Polish nationality, see the bio]


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Originally Posted by katsuma View Post
[SIZE=2][B]Šarūnas Liekis: [U]Lithuanian identity and the riddle of General Lucjan Želigowski
In other words:
"Polish identity and the riddle of Mr. Feliks Dzerzynski [Great Patriot of Poland]."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felix_Dzerzhinsky

The rest of the text is just rubbish. How do You know, that Dlugošas, Sarbievijus were Polish? Not even a single word was written by them in Polish language.

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Now that's class. Learning about Lithuanian history & heritage from the books written in Polish language.
Troll, this is typical thinking of the 19th century Lithuanian noble, presented in the book. He says clearly what is Lithuanian, what is Lithuanian language, what is Lithuanian culture and what those nobles feel themselves. What it has to do with the language, the text is written? This text has absolutely nothing to do with the Polishness, nor with Poland. In fact, he is even anti-Polish.
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Old April 20th, 2013, 09:27 PM   #846
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Magnificent discussion, but can't you girls fight that out at another page and just enjoy the damn pictures of former Prussia?

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Old April 20th, 2013, 09:39 PM   #847
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Troll, this is typical thinking of the 19th century Lithuanian noble, presented in the book. He says clearly what is Lithuanian, what is Lithuanian language, what is Lithuanian culture and what those nobles feel themselves.
Wow, you managed to put 4 "Lithuanian" in one sentence. Megas respectas to you.
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Old April 20th, 2013, 10:16 PM   #848
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Yeah, right, and Great Britain must realize they are not the only heirs of historic Empire of the Great Britain. The real heirs are Indians and Pakistanis, as they were constituting the majority of the population and the majority of the territory. We all know, there is small state, called Great Britain, but India is the true heir of the Empire!
Heirs to the heritage of the Great Britain are English, Scotish, Welsh and Irish.

Heirs to the heritage of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth are Poles, Lithuanians, Ukrainians and Belarussians.

Political nations of those "ethnic groups" have constituted the Unions.
Territories conquered by British like India or Pakistan didn't create the Union, they were colonies.

Attempts of writing a history by nationalists will always fail. Narrow-minded Lithuanian nationalism - which is on the top in today's Lithuania - won't change a fact that milions of Poles and others will treat Grand Duchy as a part of they own history and heritage. That's the reason of a big frustration among Lithuanian nationalists but a bad news for them is they have to live with it. Sorry KonstantinasŠirvydas.
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Old April 20th, 2013, 10:39 PM   #849
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Bartenstein, Preußen
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Old April 20th, 2013, 11:30 PM   #850
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Bartenstein, Preußen
Very interesting and unusual design - I have seen this in many buildings from the former East Prussia. The buildings are solid, basic and pragmatic, but they also have imaginative ornamentation added in unexpected places. The the top of the tower in an example.
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Old April 20th, 2013, 11:48 PM   #851
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Attempts of writing a history by nationalists will always fail. Narrow-minded Lithuanian nationalism - which is on the top in today's Lithuania - won't change a fact that milions of Poles and others will treat Grand Duchy as a part of they own history and heritage. That's the reason of a big frustration among Lithuanian nationalists but a bad news for them is they have to live with it. Sorry KonstantinasŠirvydas.
Can you confirm your statement? Give an example of an attempt to re-write a history? Because this is a false argument.
Grand Duchy as a part of Polish history? We are not talking about it, because everyone agree with the fact that we had a common history. Although, we must mention that Commonwealth was not a ONE centralized national State.
On the other hand, problematical matter is the kind of "treatment" and occasions when you or other are trying to tell your/our "story" from the Polish angle. But. One big BUT. Sometimes this is done by ignoring the other, in many cases very important facts. Maybe they are not known to you....
I can not act normally when I see a person, who do not know some facts*, especially associated with Lithuania propria, tries to pursued or consider heritage or identity as it is Polish. Maybe some of you believe that Polish culture made a strong impact on lithuanians (society) or Polish culture had a "changing-erasing" effect (for the sake of simplicity, Polish culture replace other culture), but this attempt of treating it through Polish point of view is not right and it is not reasonable and can be dismissed on the good grounds.
Yes, i bet that it is still popular to believe in stereotypical facts, but man, there are many issues which must be considered before making a deduction. Particularly when it comes to such fact like language, identity (katsuma is an example of man, who rarely read what others say and/or he still thinks in absolutely nonsense like "modern" lithuanian origin and/or the usage of the name Lithuania), etc.

Second, different positions about well known things. This is very important. It turns out that still exists a belief of that so called "old" lithuanians have more connection with such persons like J.Pilsudski. Well, this is a wrongful belief.
as i said, stereotypical perception and lack of knowledge in Lithuania source/culture/mentality etc. makes such understanding questionable.
Heritage? Well, this is questionable. What do you have in mind?
In other words, lithuanians can treat Polish (Commonwealth - Crown) heritage as they own? One question. Do you think that lithuanians are interested in it? I can not consider your heritage/culture as mine when i do not feel any connection with it - it is absolutely outlandish to me.
And pleaseeee, don't talk about narrow-minded nationalism when Poland have their own nationalist.

* And I do not know many things about Poland and Poles.
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Old April 21st, 2013, 12:29 AM   #852
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plus ratio quam vis,

Attempts of writing a history by nationalists will always fail. Narrow-minded Polish nationalism - which is on the top in today's Poland and the fact that millions of chauvinistic Poles and others will treat Grand Duchy as a part of their only own history and heritage, who think, that language was the most important factor of the identity and nationality in the 17-19th centuries (poor nationalists ), can't change the facts. The reason of a big frustration among Polish nationalists is that the ruling class of Lithuania has always been of Lithuanian origin, pro-Lithuanian, that the Grand Duchy of Lithuania always stayed separate part, separate state with its own:
1) Borders (funny moment, that most of the yearly budget of Lithuania after 1569, was collected from the small land plot near Brest and the river Bug, where that part, streaming from Poland, 30 km. flew through the territory of the Duchy and Poles, who were transporting goods by the river, had to pay taxes to the GDL);
2) Separate Coat of Arms;
3) Separate politicians and state offices;
4) Own Laws, legislative base, separate courts, restrictions for foreigners(Ethnic Poles couldn't settle, buy land in the Duchy);
5) Separate military and its command (Lithuanian army many times were taking entirely different actions, than the army of Poland);
6) Separate treasury of the state and own, separate money (Lithuanian coins were "stronger" than Polish ones in the 16th century and the people of the GDL often mocked Poland because of that);
7) Own ecclesiastic authorities;
8) Separate educational and religious provinces (center - Vilnius; central University of the GDL - Vilnius university);
9) Own culture
10) Own identity, tied to the Duchy
...
_____
Poles many times signed various guarantee papers, where it is said, that e.g. Lithuanians get equal rights, but must consult Poland while electing King or in various questions and... The second part is, that Poles must just the same consult Lithuanians while electing King or in other questions.
Various http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recipro...of_Two_Nations
Where it is said the same again, that GLD is separate and every 25 years, the Constitution should be again revised by the one and the other Nation with their separate rights reserved.

Chauvinists as You would like to see the Union State as Polish only state, centralized, national state, but their narrow minded chauvinism is doomed to fail as has absolutely nothing to do with the history.
Good night, Polish pride.

The only heirs of GDL, together with Lithuanians, are Belarusians (Ukrainians - only to the year 1569), but they are only partial heirs, as
1) The ruling class during the stage of the creation of the state was exceptionally Lithuanian, uniting Baltic tribes;
2) Formation of the state occurred from the ethnic Lithuanian lands;
3) Ruling class stayed pagan to the 1387-1413 (Belarusians were all Orthodox);
4a) Baptized were exsceptionally Lithuanians (Christian can not be baptized twice; Belarusians were Orthodox)>
4b) After baptism of Lithuanians by Lithuanians Jogaila and Vytautas, all the Catholics were given large rights, Belarusians Orthodox stayed unequal to Lithuanians.
5) Lithuanian nobles, magnates get their coat of arms. The coat of arms were NOT given to Orthodoxes. Their rights to fulfill the state offices were too forbidden.
Only in the 16th century, some Belarusian nobles began change their religion from Orthodox to Catholic, only in the mid. 16th century the rights of both Catholics and Orthodox were made equal. Actually, even after this, the rights were not equal. University - Catholic, most of the nobles of ruling class - Catholics and Orthodox Belarussians themselves soon were made Uniates.
Sad note for Belarussians.

And what Poles has to do with the GDL? Practically - nothing. Not more than Lithuanians with the Crown of Poland. But such chauvinists as You would say, that Lithuanians had no impact on the Kingdom of Poland, has no rights to Mūsų Krokuva, Lithuanian heritage only vice-versa.
Anyway, I am not going to participate in this kind of sh*t:


Bye-bye.
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Old April 21st, 2013, 01:00 AM   #853
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Some historical maps covering the territory of East Prussia.
____

Baltic Tribes, AD 1200


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ba...bes_c_1200.svg


Ethnic settlement in East Prussia in AD 1300-1400 (a cropped image from the map titled "Spread of German Settlement to the Eastward, 800-1400")


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Im..._ethnicity.JPG


Prussia, AD 1576


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:PR..._Henneberg.png


Poland (Regni Poloniae), AD 1683


http://lithuanianmaps.com/Maps1676-83.html


Ethnic map of the Province of East Prussia in 1907


http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...ssia_1907.jpeg
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Old April 21st, 2013, 04:54 AM   #854
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The map is misleading in that it is showing only the eastern part of East Prussia, the heavily German part in and around Konigsberg. The red line border is the border of East Prussia and it continues to the left (west) quite a lot if the map included the western areas.
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Old April 21st, 2013, 01:56 PM   #855
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That map shows the Province of East Prussia. I've updated the description accordingly.
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Old April 21st, 2013, 02:10 PM   #856
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@KonstantinasŠirvydas, Prosp & other Lithuanian forumers

Ok, I propose to cut the long story short and summarise our discussion by saying that Poland claims part of the cultural legacy of the former Grand Duchy of Lithuania. In this regard, we (Poles) are not going to ask you (Lithuanians) for permission to do so, however we remain hopeful of your understanding at some stage in future.
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Old April 21st, 2013, 02:59 PM   #857
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1944 On the border of Lithuania and East Prussia. Eitkūnai/Eitkunen town. In Russian here is written "Germany"


Lietuva senosiose fotografijose.Facebook
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>>> OLD LITHUANIA




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Old April 21st, 2013, 03:21 PM   #858
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Depeched, any idea why in russian language name of this town is "eidtkunen"?
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Old April 21st, 2013, 03:46 PM   #859
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Vito KurDeBalanz View Post
Depeched, any idea why in russian language name of this town is "eidtkunen"?
Maybe to imitate the original pronunciation? When I pronounce Eitkunen i feel not only "t" sound but also "d".
Specification of the speech apparatus.
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Тем, кто родился на берегу моря, всегда дует ветер странствий. От него деревья не колышутся, зато души трепещут...

Last edited by veresk; April 21st, 2013 at 03:51 PM.
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Old April 21st, 2013, 04:06 PM   #860
Mruczek
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keepthepast View Post
....and thirdly, the map does not show the large jewish population in the areas.
This is one of two reasons from "firstly"

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheReconstructer View Post
Bartenstein, Preußen
Brama Lidzbarska (Heilsberger Tor, Lidzbark Gate)

Present view:


If someone fancy google-translating of Polish texts, here it comes
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brama_L...w_Bartoszycach

Brama Lidzbarska is so characteristic to the skyline of the city and known as its landmark that it can be found on the cover of nearly all historic books - monographies of the city - both Polish ("Bartoszyce. Z dziejów miasta i powiatu", 1967, "Bartoszyce. Z dziejów miasta i okolic", 1988) and German (IIRC, "Unser Bartenstein", ca. 1951).
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