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Old April 21st, 2013, 04:39 PM   #861
Depeched
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Vito KurDeBalanz View Post
Depeched, any idea why in russian language name of this town is "eidtkunen"?
Sorry for mistake, In German this town Eydtkuhnen
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Old April 21st, 2013, 05:40 PM   #862
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Quote:
Originally Posted by veresk View Post
Maybe to imitate the original pronunciation? When I pronounce Eitkunen i feel not only "t" sound but also "d".
Specification of the speech apparatus.
As a Pole I've got very similar "speach apparatus" to yours and I would also pronounce it with d and t sounds . I was just wondering why it was writen Eidtkunan in Russian?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Depeched View Post
Sorry for mistake, In German this town Eydtkuhnen
There was no mistake made in German name of the town I guess, strange to me was russian name of it

No big deal Gents. Just small detail. Don't mind it
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Old April 21st, 2013, 05:49 PM   #863
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Vito KurDeBalanz View Post
As a Pole I've got very similar "speach apparatus" to yours and I would also pronounce it with d and t sounds . I was just wondering why it was writen Eidtkunan in Russian?

There was no mistake made in German name of the town I guess, strange to me was russian name of it

No big deal Gents. Just small detail. Don't mind it
I think it is nothing strange, because until 1946 in Kaliningrad d. all city names was still not changed. There are more examples with this question.
By the way Eitkūnai/Eydtkuhnencity name is Lithuanian origin.
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Old April 21st, 2013, 06:06 PM   #864
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Vito KurDeBalanz View Post
As a Pole I've got very similar "speach apparatus" to yours and I would also pronounce it with d and t sounds . I was just wondering why it was writen Eidtkunan in Russian?
The place was then renamed to Chernyshevskoe settlement, located in Nesterov rayon)
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Old April 21st, 2013, 06:12 PM   #865
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Can you confirm your statement? Give an example of an attempt to re-write a history? Because this is a false argument.
1Grand Duchy as a part of Polish history? We are not talking about it, because everyone agree with the fact that we had a common history. Although, we must mention that Commonwealth was not a ONE centralized national State.
On the other hand, problematical matter is the kind of "treatment" and occasions when you or other are trying to tell your/our "story" from the Polish angle. But. One big BUT. Sometimes this is done by ignoring the other, in many cases very important facts. Maybe they are not known to you....
I can not act normally when I see a person, who do not know some facts*, especially associated with Lithuania propria, 2tries to pursued or consider heritage or identity as it is Polish. Maybe some of you believe that Polish culture made a strong impact on lithuanians (society) or Polish culture had a "changing-erasing" effect 3(for the sake of simplicity, Polish culture replace other culture), but this attempt of treating it through Polish point of view is not right and it is not reasonable and can be dismissed on the good grounds.
Yes, i bet that it is still popular to believe in stereotypical facts, but man, there are many issues which must be considered before making a deduction. Particularly when it comes to such fact like language, identity (katsuma is an example of man, who rarely read what others say and/or he still thinks in absolutely nonsense like "modern" lithuanian origin and/or the usage of the name Lithuania), etc.

Second, different positions about well known things. This is very important. It turns out that still exists a belief of that so called "old" lithuanians have more connection with such persons like J.Pilsudski. Well, this is a wrongful belief.
as i said, stereotypical perception and lack of knowledge in Lithuania source/culture/mentality etc. makes such understanding questionable.
Heritage? Well, this is questionable. What do you have in mind?
4In other words, lithuanians can treat Polish (Commonwealth - Crown) heritage as they own? 5One question. Do you think that lithuanians are interested in it? I can not consider your heritage/culture as mine when i do not feel any connection with it - it is absolutely outlandish to me.
6And pleaseeee, don't talk about narrow-minded nationalism when Poland have their own nationalist.

* And I do not know many things about Poland and Poles.
I confirm what I have said in previous posts - nothing more, nothing less.

ad.1.
ad.2. I've never said anything like that
ad.3. I've never said such thing - cultures in a wide meaning of the word have mixed up - culture of England had great influence on Scotish culture, same as culture of the Polish Crown on culture of Grand Duchy and vice versa
ad.4. absolutely! same as Belarussians and Ukrainians
ad.5. I don't know and I don't care. Honestly speaking I could care a bit more if the Grand Duchy would still existed today but it doesn't.
ad.6. who hasn't got - the thing is that Polish nationalism against today's Lithuania practically doesn't exist (what exists is rather funny than dangerous) while Lithuanian soft and hard nationalists decided to build a new independent Lithuania in opposition against everything what may be related with Poland.

On the other hand it is Poland where one can find the Jagiellonian University, Polish-Lithuanian coat of arms on "every second" monument and children reading Mickiewicz's poems about beloved Lithuania (without any territorial claims or implied meaning). Spirit of the Commonwealth is living in Polish hearts. That's why Poles in general, including Polish authorities, have got lots of sympathy for Lithuanians.
It is Lithuanian businness not to waste it.

P.S. KonstantinasŠirvydas has called me a chauvinist and at the same time he refused Poles to feel successors of the Grand Duchy while I didn't exclude anyone. No comment needed.
Having this in mind every reasonable person can form an opinion about me and my statements and decide who represents chauvinistic point of view.

after all it's better to appreciate what unites Poland and Lithuania than to argue how much Minsk would be Polish/Lithuanian/Ruthenian if the Grand Duchy didn't cease to exist.
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Old April 21st, 2013, 07:26 PM   #866
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Recently renovated von Woisky manor (built in 19th century) in Jełmuń/Allmoyne, Poland


author: Mieczysław Kalski

Before renovation

author: Napoleon 2008
http://www.polskiezabytki.pl/m/obiekt/6796/


author: Mieczysław Kalski


author: Mieczysław Kalski


author: Mieczysław Kalski

Lake Jełmuń

author: Mieczysław Kalski

http://mojemazury.pl/
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Old April 21st, 2013, 08:15 PM   #867
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It seems that some forumers like wooden architecture...

Klon/Liebenberg, Masuria (it was inhabited by Catholic settlers from Kurpie)




Catholic church (built in 1866)






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Old April 21st, 2013, 08:52 PM   #868
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I love that church.

The brick and stone exterior, the steeple, the pulpit design, the panels for the paintings (perhaps the stations of the cross but I can't tell if they continue on the other wall), the altar. I love it.
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Old April 21st, 2013, 10:26 PM   #869
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The oldest wooden church in the region (built in Ostrykół/Ostrokollen in 1667)

Formerly Lutheran (now sadly converted to Catholic )






The second oldest preserved wooden church in Warmian-Masurian Voivodeship was built in 1674-1676 in Wieliczki/Wielitzken, Masuria (church was founded by Michał Giżycki and his wife)

Also, converted to Catholic






Btw, there was an older wooden church in the area. Unfortunately, it was demolished in the late 19th century...

Church in Różyńsk Wielki/Gross Rosinsko was presumably built around 1500 (first written records from 1590)


PS. The oldest wooden church in Poland was constructed around 1374 - link.
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Old April 22nd, 2013, 12:54 AM   #870
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plus ratio quam vis, Poland is as successor of the Duchy, as contemporary Germany is successor of Poland today, just because they live in the same Union - EU. If You feel, that today's Krakow is German heritage and German culture, then OK, let it be. We can also take another example: Great Britain and Ireland. Only chauvinists would call Great Britain - successor of the culture, heritage, history of Ireland. Why should it be different with Lithuania?

You can not go to one's house and say:
- Hey, I stayed at your house last year for a month, because You allowed me so, so now it is our common house, not only yours. What is more, this room, the room of Your's is actually my room (because You were very friendly and let me sleep in Your bed).

We are not interesting in appropriating somebody else's history, culture, cities, nor we are willing to share what is ours with the other. Yes, we welcome people to come, see, feel our culture, history, heritage, yes we are hospitable, can show, can help, can make a cup of tea or share bed, but that is all. We will not let someone come to our house and claim it is theirs. There are no excuses and we have not to make any excuses. This is our own house. We can paint it in whatever color, we can put table in one or another corner of our room and we treat our things, what belong to us, as our things, not that someone could come to our house and say "hey, I think this towel is not Yours, but mine", "Hey, this panties are not yours, but our common, because I lived in Your flat last year for a week, via couchsurfing.org".

There were always people of other cultures, who enriched our culture. They CAME to Lithuania from other states. They are also ours. Only those, people who belong to two cultures, we can be shared, but not the whole history, culture, heritage.

Yes, we decide, if we want our friends would live in our house by our own will. They can paint the walls of our house, they can make gifts to us-the owner of the house (it can be nice painting, a book, a cd), but this thing, that they make the house nicer, more cosy, doesn't make this house into theirs. It is still our house. Nicer one, more diverse, more interesting. That is all. Yes, the cd can be of Polish musician, let's say Doda, the painting can be of prominent Polish painter, the book - of Polish writer, but this can not make the Lithuanian house into Polish house and the owner, who enjoys listening to Paprika Korps - into Pole (e.g. the fact, that some Polish band sing in English, doesn't make them into the culture of the Great Britain, the heritage of the Great Britain, they are and will be Poles and only Poles).

Only chauvinists can claim the whole culture, history, just because in is ENRICHED by the others as well.

Jogaila is Lithuanian and more than thousand of Lithuanians studied in Krakow University in the 14th-17th centuries, but I will never be so arrogant to call Krakow University - created by Lithuanians Lithuanian heritage and never call Krakow - Lithuanian city (also, Lithuanian-built city), because of "Dominance of Lithuanians in Krakow in the 14-16th centuries". It is Polish University and Polish city. Only these persons - Lithuanian students and Lithuanian Duke can be called "my culture" (with Jogaila - "shared" between both cultures), but not the whole cake. Very sad, that so much narrow-minded, greedy Polish nationalism in today's society of Poland.
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Old April 22nd, 2013, 01:48 AM   #871
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Neo-baroque palace in Łężany/Schloss Loßainen, Poland


author: Marek i Ewa Wojciechowscy

Von Fischer-Lossainen palace ( built in 1909-1911)

author: Łukasz Westwalewicz


author: Marek i Ewa Wojciechowscy

Northern facade

author: Łukasz Westwalewicz

View from park

author: Mieczysław Kalski

Southern facade

author: pan rysiu
http://mapy.eholiday.pl/galeria-leza...zyn,66090.html

Lake

author: Mieczysław Kalski

History
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pa%C5%8...%99%C5%BCanach

http://mojemazury.pl/
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Ca...C4%99%C5%BCany
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Old April 22nd, 2013, 03:08 AM   #872
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That's beautiful. Majestic and comfortable at the same time.
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“The meaning of earthly existence lies not, as we have grown used to thinking, in prospering but in the development of the soul.”
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Old April 22nd, 2013, 01:32 PM   #873
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KonstantinasŠirvydas View Post
plus ratio quam vis, ................This is our own house. We can paint it in whatever color, we can put table in one or another corner of our room and we treat our things, what belong to us, as our things, not that someone could come to our house and say "hey, I think this towel is not Yours, but mine", "Hey, this panties are not yours, but our common, because I lived in Your flat last year for a week, via couchsurfing.org"..................
........Very sad, that so much narrow-minded, greedy Polish nationalism in today's society of Poland.
In that case I recommend a visit to Poland. Give yourself a break from Lithuanian bleak mood. But watch out this journey may turn your world upside down.

P.S. You can do with your "house" whatever you wish and I swear I've never wore your pants

P.S.2. White Eagle and the Chaser are my symbols without no one's permission. Anyone can feel the same without my acceptance. Feel invited!
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Old April 22nd, 2013, 10:16 PM   #874
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Old April 23rd, 2013, 01:10 AM   #875
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plus ratio quam vis, I am visiting Poland every year many times and believe me, I am not searching desperately there for "Lithuanian signs", like mad Polish mates in Lithuania, but enjoy Polish culture.
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Old April 23rd, 2013, 10:01 AM   #876
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Poznan


Gdansk


Krakow


Malbork


Lwow/Lviv


And so on...

The only question is what happened with all those Baltic Lithuanians living within territories of today's Poland, Ukraine, Lithuania, Belarus, etc.? My guess is that they never existed in large numbers and they were just small minority among Ruthenians and Poles between the 16th and 19th century, even in Grand Duchy of Lithuania (where official language until 1697 was Ruthenian, since then it was replaced by Polish). In this part of Europe there are only ca.2,6 million "Lithuanian"/Baltic Lithuanians and over 38 million Poles. Without ethnic minorities the density of today's Lithuania would've been around 39/km2.

"White Eagle and the Chaser are my symbols without no one's permission."

Coat of arms of Poland (1295-1569)


Coat of arms of Poland (1569-1795)
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Old April 23rd, 2013, 10:28 AM   #877
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Only coat of arms, not "Lithuania in Poland".
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Old April 23rd, 2013, 01:20 PM   #878
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Whot do they all want from that poor soldier-girl
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Old April 23rd, 2013, 02:30 PM   #879
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Hmm, i guess, nothing. Everything seems properly...
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Old April 23rd, 2013, 04:05 PM   #880
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I was hoping to close off the Polish-Lithuanian topic here, but apparently we can't...

Quote:
Originally Posted by KonstantinasŠirvydas View Post
(...) You can not go to one's house and say:
- Hey, I stayed at your house last year for a month, because You allowed me so, so now it is our common house, not only yours. What is more, this room, the room of Your's is actually my room (because You were very friendly and let me sleep in Your bed).

We are not interesting in appropriating somebody else's history, culture, cities, nor we are willing to share what is ours with the other. Yes, we welcome people to come, see, feel our culture, history, heritage, yes we are hospitable, can show, can help, can make a cup of tea or share bed, but that is all. We will not let someone come to our house and claim it is theirs. There are no excuses and we have not to make any excuses. This is our own house. We can paint it in whatever color, we can put table in one or another corner of our room and we treat our things, what belong to us, as our things, not that someone could come to our house and say "hey, I think this towel is not Yours, but mine", "Hey, this panties are not yours, but our common, because I lived in Your flat last year for a week, via couchsurfing.org".

There were always people of other cultures, who enriched our culture. They CAME to Lithuania from other states. They are also ours. Only those, people who belong to two cultures, we can be shared, but not the whole history, culture, heritage.

(...)
Look, there are hundreds of thousands Poles, whose ancestors hailed from the former Grand Duchy of Lithuania (GDL). That huge Polish family included both settlers from Poland and - what was a larger group - Polonized indigenous Lithuanian/Ruthenian nobles & other inhabitants of the GDL. The Polish magnate families like Radziwiłł, Sapieha, Czartoryski, Tyszkiewicz, etc. have roots deep in the GDL. The people like Kościuszko, Mickiewicz, Piłsudski, Żeligowski, who would have called themselves Lithuanians, were not migrants from Poland or emerged out of nowhere. All that large group were the descendants of indigenous Lithuanians, of both Baltic and Slavic ethnicity.

So you, Lithuanian Balts, who are now dominant ethnic group in a country called Lithuania (see my previous quote from Norman Davies), did not allow that large group of old Lithuanians to "live in your house". Quite on the contrary, as many of those families were the highest GDL elite, they rather performed their rule on regular GDL citizens, including Baltic Lithuanian farmers or tradesmen.

You just try to misappropriate the overall legacy of GDL for your own purpose, fuelled by narrow-minded nationalism. But I can tell you, it's not going to happen. Because we, Poles, will not let you steal our common heritage! Period.

BTW, I'll give you a live example as well. This month in Warsaw there was a marriage of young Polish actress Anna Czartoryska. The Czartoryski Family stem from the GDL, are described as the "Gediminid magnate family" and their coat of arms is "Czartoryski Pogoń Litewska". That family had been, therefore, at the very core of GDL. But their descendants are now Polish and live predominantly in Poland (apart from those who had moved to "western" countries along the course of last 200 years).

As for Anna Czartoryska, her marriage ceremony was kept secret. But if it hadn't, I wonder how many Lietuvis people from contemporary Lithuania would've gone on a pilgrimage to kneel in front of the genuine Lithuanian princess?

Some coverage from the Polish tabloids in relation to Anna & her wedding can be found here or here.
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