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Old April 23rd, 2013, 04:46 PM   #881
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The only question is what happened with all those Lithuanians living within territories of today's Poland, Ukraine, Lithuania, Belarus, etc.? My guess is that they never existed in large numbers and they were just small minority among Ruthenians and Poles between the 16th and 19th century, even in Grand Duchy of Lithuania (where official language until 1697 was Ruthenian, since then it was replaced by Polish). In this part of Europe there are only ca.2,6 million "Lithuanian"/Baltic Lithuanians and over 38 million Poles. Without ethnic minorities the density of Lithuania would've been around 39/km2.

Why there are only about 2 mln. latvians, about 1 mln. estonians? Why in Finland - big country - only about 5 mln. of Finns, or in Norway - about 5mln.? Low density / small population is very common in northern part of Europe. Climate, soil, forests etc. Living conditions (more importantly - agriculture development) were difficult. That's why tribes, living in this part of Europe, were more aggressive and formed some kind of pro-millitary society (lithuanians, prussians, i.e. in all prie-Chirstian (IX-XIVcent) burial place you will find arms/weapons and that is opposite to many western and central european societies), that is why many of them raided to russian (lithuanians) or western europe (curronians etc.) lands. Plus paganic believes and warlike style of life (vilkatlakai in lithuanian). For instance, Jan Dlugosz : “The Yotvingian people reside in the North, bordering with Mazovia, Rus and Lithuania; has a language greatly similar to the language of Prussians and Litvins, and understandable to them. The tribes are wild and warlike, so hungry for glory and renown that a dozen of them fought with a hundred enemies encouraged only by the hope and knowledge that, after their death, their compatriots would honour them with songs of their heroic deeds. This character led to the demise of the Yotvingians, as small groups were defeated by more numerous units and virtually all were killed because of their inability to flee from such unequal battles.”

Russian/Byzantine chronicles wrote about it often.

When we are talking about baltic territories of Belarus/Ruthenian, we can speak only about northern part of Belarus (Lida, Krėva etc.) as baltic territories (mainly all toponymy has baltic origin). Since ...-XX century majority of people were lithuanians and in some cases -very "exotic" (because of well-preserved ancient archaic dialect, live style, outlook, historical memory etc. ). Examples - Zietela (Dziatlava), Malkava (Малькаўка) etc. (XX cent.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dzyatlava

In XVI and actually in XIX-XX cent.: Astravas, Periamas, Ašiuža, Pariečė, Dubičiai, Rodūna, Pelesa, Asava, Varanavas, Benekainiai, Apsas, Drūkšiai apylinkės. http://lt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltarusijos_lietuviai

What happened after WWII? Many of them emigrated to LT, others - to Siberia Some of them stayed at their home and I do not know about them at the moment.

And here i agree with You - when we are talking about (past/present) lithuanian/baltic elements in present-day Poland/Belarus territory, lithuanians or baltic people lived in small groups and mainly near present day Lithuania-Belarus border. List of lithuanian speaking villages (mainly from XIX cent.) actually confirms Your statement. By the way, I think very important source is the list of farmers in the estates (from XVI-XIX). I do not have it at my home, but afaik mainly there were lithuanian surnames. Next time i will try to clear it up.
NB. I am talking only about present day territories. Lithuanians/Balts were amongst of the most sedentary people in continental Europe, so I doubt that such observation is not right.

Grand Duchy. Well, it is obvious. Ruthenian/Ukraine lands were more larger and had larger number of people. Only northern part of GDL (Lithuania propria) were lithuanian-baltic.

Very interesting fact:

A census by the clergy of the Belarus Grodno area in 1860 had as many as 30,929 inhabitants identifying themselves as Yatviags

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yotvingians

Speaking about Poland (ex- oldprssian, yotvingian territories) - probably assimilation? Well, there are many sources which confirms that old prussians/youtvingians emigrated to GDL (near Gardinas/Grodno, near Trakai, Varėna, Vilnius) in XIII-XIV century.
So those, who did not accept christian faith, emigrated to GDL. During Northern Crusade it was understandable to come to GDL as to pagan state (semigalians, curronians) which was a unified at that time and had a central governance.

Actually I was a bit surprised when i had a trip to Gdansk (destination), i saw that some of people living in ex old prussian territories (Elblag, Bartoszyce, Goldap ) have..very similar physical data/outlook to lithuanians. Poles and Lithuanians are not genetically related and speaking in terms of physical outlook, we have distinctive differences (in past and at present, lithuanians have been known for being people of above average height; blue eyes; blond hair; face structure etc.). Maybe that is why we are so good in playing basketball?
http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2012/0...of-us-all.html

On the other hand, it confirms the fact why mainly northern-east part of Poland is more genetically similar to Baltic people that the rest of Poland. Probably because of assimilation between poles and baltic people during centuries (XIV-XX).

Historically, decrease of population number was associated to...plague in XVIII cent. when half of present-day Lithaunian territory have died. It had a dreadfully consequences for future demography stats.


even in Grand Duchy of Lithuania (where official language until 1697 was Ruthenian, since then it was replaced by Polish).

Firstly, written language tradition comes with Christianity. Lithuanians are considered to the the last pagans in Europe (maybe you will be surprised but mostly of us are proud of this fact ). Despite some fragmentic lithuanian written sources (XIV), language did not develop until XVI cent. Language comes with Baptism.
Secondly, we must pay attention on that Ruthenian language was a Chancery Slavonic (Church) and it was used to connect with larger ruthenians territories while latin language - with Roman Catholics (Western Europe). The same situation with latin language was in Poland. By the way, afaik in old-ruthenian language you can find hundreds of lithuanian words, for instance, коиминецъ and lithuanian - kaimynas.

But. Erazm Ciolek, Pole Bishop, wrote to Pope Alexander IV and explained that "<...>lithuanians have their own language, respect and use it". He made and emphasis by using a latin word observare. Than he explained that ruthenian language in GDL is popular because: this language is more easier than lithuanian and "half country speak it". I think he made probably the best introduction of lithuanian language and explained it very well. Ruthenian language had a tradition, differently than written lithuanian language which was developing at the time. But it does not mean that Lithuanian language was forbidden or not used to deal with official matters or nobles did not know it, for instance: XVI-XVII there was a requirement to use Lithuanian and Polish language in Kaunas, Vilnius Courts (noble courts); actually officers in XVI-XVII were bilingual and it was a strict requirement.
I can mention more cases, but in overall the conclusion will be the same: in proper Lithuania lithuanian language did not lost it's status.
But. There were large conflicts between indigenous lithuanian speaking people (nobles) and ruthenians in XVI-XVII century because pf reformation and political reasons.
Here is a good article, only in lithuanian language :
http://viduramziu.istorija.net/socium/dubonis2002.htm

Erazm Ciolek:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erazm_C..._P%C5%82ock%29
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Old April 23rd, 2013, 05:00 PM   #882
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katsuma View Post

So you, Lithuanian Balts, who are now dominant ethnic group in a country called Lithuania.
Yes, Turkic/Altaic/Uralic/Khoisan/Eskimo-Aleut Pole (or ?) troll, we, Lithuanian Balts, only now dominate Lithuania. Prior to that, Polish Balts (or Baltic Poles?) dominated it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megalomania
and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chauvinism

And all these persons, whose ancestors long time ago were Balts, Lithuanians, who chose to assimilate into Poles, who moved to Poland. That is all. One person can not sit on two chairs at once and draw all Lithuania to Poland just because they emigrated to that country and became Poles.
It would be stupid if 1 500 000 Lithuanians from the USA or 200 000 Lithuanian Brazilians, who now do not feel Lithuanians, but Brasilians and speak Portuguese, would go to Lithuanian threads or internet pages and would write, that Lithuania is the U.S.A. or Brazil, just because they emigrated from Lithuania 100 years ago, that they (together with other Brasilians of whatever ethnicity) are the real heirs of Kaunas cathedral and Gediminas castle, and Jonas, Petras, who live in Kaunas, Vilnius today, are not.

Also, NO source show immigration of Poles to Lithuania (except interwar period and soviet period). During the 16-18th centuries, when newcomer people were registered to the town books and were given official "new citizen" category, only 6500 people came to Vilnius, were not native citizens of the city. Of those, only less than 8% were from the Kingdom of Poland (less than from Prussia or Courland). The end.
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Old April 23rd, 2013, 05:18 PM   #883
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P.S. Czartoryski are of Ukrainian ethnicity not Lithuanian, who were initially Orthodox and accepter Catholicism only in the 16th century. Absolutely nothing related to Lithuania. Yes, some of them lived in Lithuania. moved to Lithuania in 16-17 c. (Ukrainian cd plays in the Lithuanian house). So what?


Later they just the same moved to Poland and fully became Poles. The end of the "Lithuanian" Czartoryski story.
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Old April 23rd, 2013, 06:32 PM   #884
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Prosp, about using Lithuanian language among nobles. XVII c. Radvilos from Biržai, Kėdainiai, financed the printing of Lithuanian books.
Knyga nabožnystės krikščioniškos, issued in 1653, financed and ordered personally by Radvila, was in personal library of the highest noble of the GDL of that time. It is by far the largest book, issued in the GDL (more than 700 pages) so one must just imagine what sums of money it was worth to issue. Whom dedicated it was? I guess, farmers? They were so wealth to buy such book, sure!


Not secret, that only nobles were so well off, to finance printing. Then guess, who ordered to print than many Lithuanian books in the GDL and East Prussia? Peasant, maybe farmers? Maybe illiterate sefs/slaves?

Again, East Prussia was the main center of Lithuanian book printing in the 16-18th centuries. Who ordered these books? Whom these books were dedicated?

Anyway, this clearly show, that not Balts Lithuanians, but Slavs/Finns/Basques Lithuanians (wtf???) "dominated". Hundreds of historical war songs in Lithuanian, that could be sung only by rich nobles, as farmers were not going to wars is just another proof of this.

In the end of the 19th century, Tiškevičiai, Pliateriai families were proud having in their personal libraries Lithuanian books, also old ones among many as Daukša.
Tiškevičius from Biržai was a very good man and ordered to built a church. Local Lithuanians made him marble plate with Lithuanian inscription. Probably he understood nothing, and these Lithuanians were trying to mock him and laugh at him, according to Polish chauvinists, but that is not important.
I wanted to tell about Tyzenhauzų Marija from Rokiškis. She finished Rokiškis church and ordered the sculpture of Saint Mary with the Lithuanian inscription "Vartai dangaus, melsk už mus". Also, probably understood nothing, but ordered "write here something anyway".
Also, there were some Tiškevičiai, like one noble Tiškevičius from Kretinga, who issued books in Lithuanian, probably he did not know a word in Lithuanian, but wrote a book.
And his cousin from Palanga was fighting as a volunteer in Lithuanian army. Probably was pro-Poland, but fought against Poles. Strange dude.

P.S. Some Tiškevičiai live in Lithuania today too. So what? Also, they, Tiškevičiai of Lithuania are Lithuanians. Of course, some Tiszkiewicz, who emigrated from Southern Bielorussia to Poland after the war, are somehow more important in "the question of Lithuania".

And here are some more examples:
Quote:
Sofija Pšibiliauskienė was born to an impractical painter Nikodem Iwanowski of Polish–Lithuanian nobility stock.
[...]
he first contributed to various Lithuanian periodicals, including Varpas and Ūkininkas.[3] After separating from her husband and moving to Vilnius, she could spend more time writing. Her early works depict struggle between landless peasants and corrupt landowners. In short stories Klajūnas (The Wonderer, 1902) and Stebuklingoji tošelė (The Magic Reed-Pipe, 1907) Pšibiliauskienė, in a didactic tone, wrote how peasants were exploited and morally degraded by lazy and selfish estate owners. Most of her characters were oppressed by misfortunes, social injustice, and their own flaws. Her ambitious work, novella Klaida (Mistake, 1908), attempted to analyze and criticize the period leading to the Russian Revolution of 1905 (between 1890 and 1905), but failed to explain deeper causes of the revolution.
Quote:
Marija Lastauskienė, Born in Šiauliai, Lastauskienė grew up and spent her youth in a family estate in Paragiai. Her family, of Polish–Lithuanian nobility stock, was influenced by Polish culture. [I am influenced by American culture ]
[...]
She began writing at the age of seventeen and her first story Bez steru (Without a Rudder) was published in a Warsaw newspaper.[3] However, influenced by her older sister Sofija Pšibiliauskienė, Lastauskienė began writing for Lithuanian press.
The first works published under her own name were short story Auka (Sacrifice, 1907–1908) and novel Šviesa ir šešėliai (Light and Shadows, 1925–1926).
Quote:
Šatrijos Ragana ("Witch of Šatrija") was the pen name of Marija Pečkauskaitė (March 8, 1877 – July 24, 1930), a Lithuanian humanist and romantic writer and educator. Her most successful works are Sename dvare (In the Old Estate, 1922) and Irkos tragedija (Tragedy of Irka).
[...]
Her most critically acclaimed novel, Sename dvare, is somewhat autobiographical and depicts a family of a Samogitian landlord.
Quote:
Žemaitė (literally female Samogitian) - a pen name of Julija Beniuševičiūtė-Žymantienė; 4 June [O.S. 23 May] 1845 in Bukantė near Plungė — 7 December 1921 in Marijampolė) was a Lithuanian/Samogitian writer. Born to impoverished gentry, she became one of the major participants in the Lithuanian National Revival.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vytautas_Landsbergis
Father - architect, grandfather - Lithuanian book smugler, who later participated in the Lithuanian press while living in Vilnius after the ban was lift in 1905. Nobility. Came to Lithuania from Courland in the 17th century.
Many people with Landsbergis surname live in Lithuania today.

Quote:
Vincas Kudirka (31 December [O.S. 19 December] 1858 - 16 November [O.S. 4 November] 1899) was a Lithuanian poet and physician, and the author of both the music and lyrics of the Lithuanian National Anthem, Tautiška giesmė.
Nobility. Came to Lithuania from East Prussia in the 18th century. Their ancestors were of a French origin and original surname - Couderc.

and many more. Here is one of contemporary noble guy:
http://www.europosparkas.lt/Naujieno...sasSpeech.html

http://www.karosas.lt/biografija/biography.html
Quote:

Gintaras Karosas
Sculptor, creator of the first works of landscape art and architecture in Lithuania.

Landscape creator of the Europos Parkas open-air museum.

Founder of the Europos Parkas and Liubavas museums, author of books and photographs.

Researcher of Liubavas Estate heritage and ethnography.

National Advancement Prize laureate.

President of Public Institution Europos Parkas from 1993 until the present time.

Member of Vilnius District Municipality Council.

Member of the Lithuanian Royal Union of Nobility (descendant of a noble family), Uszacki Coat of Arms.

Gintaras Karosas was born in Kryziokai village, Vilnius district, on the 25th of June, 1968.

He graduated from the Vilnius Academy of Fine Arts (Department of Sculpture).

In 1995 the artist took museum studies in Japan and the USA (at the invitation of the US Information Agency).

In 1987 he found a place near Vilnius suitable for a sculpture park and started clearing wild neglected woodland. Gintaras Karosas was nineteen at that time.

Descent

Gintaras Karosas is the descendant of his grandmother’s nobleman family who were awarded the Uszacki Coat of Arms, a variety of Junosza herb, for the military merits. The herb displays a lamb with a bleeding side and a broken horseshoe and an arrowhead above. As a bearing in heraldry a lamb symbolizes patience, endurance and courage. The Nobility was awarded in the mid of 17th c. at the wars with the Moscow State when, according to K. Niesieckis (K. Niesiecki), one of the progenitors, the son of the noblewoman Potiomkinaitė (Potiomkina) from Smolensk voivodship, commanded the defence fights of Liucinas (Lucyn, Ludza, Lutzen) castle and was wounded. For the merits at war he was given the manor in Inflanty (Livonia) duchy.

K. Niesieckis and A. Bonieckis (A.Boniecki) maintain that Uszacki Coat of Arms is of the German origin. The Ušackis (Uszacki) family roots come from the former Dzisna – Breslauja pawiets in Ušacas (Uzsac, now Belarus) which in some confirmation documents is misleadingly called Ušakovas (Uszakow).

Another Coat of Arms of the Karosas (Karas) ancestors might have been Dabrovo (the horseshoe and three crosses in the blue background). The Coat of Arms was awarded to the participant of the first Crusade as early as 11th c. for courage defending the Saint Sepulchre in Jerusalem. Back from Palestine he settled down with his family in Poland and left many descendants. However, the lack of documents prevents the proof of legitimacy of the Coat of Arms to the family of Karosas living in Lithuania. During recent centuries the large kin was living around Anykščiai and Utena. One of the big families – 18 sons and daughters – was that of Gintaras Karosas’ great-grandfather Jurgis Karosas (1856–1937) and his wife Barbora Juodelytė (1854–1940).

The closest kinship of the Karosas family was fostered by the brothers Antanas and Klemensas Karosas, natives from Vėjeliškiai (near Anykščiai). The Bishop Antanas Karosas (Karas, 1856–1947), the Bishop Ordinary of Seinai since 1907 to 1920, later served as the Bishop of Vilkaviškis. The Bishop was the publisher and editor of the first Lithuanian periodical in Kaunas Nedėldienio skaitymas (Weekend readings) since 1905 and was prominent active figure of public life. His brother Klemensas Karosas (1866–1933) was one the most famous engineers in the interwar Lithuania holding the position of the Road and water ways Board Director in the Communications Ministry up to 1927.

Many of the Karosas family got their merits in the military service. Like the brother of Gintaras Karosas’ grandfather, the Colonel Lieutenant Antanas Karosas (1891–~1941) who hold very high position of the department head in the Armament Board of the interwar Lithuania and was awarded with many orders and medals. Upon occupation of Lithuania by the Soviets, he was arrested by KGB and his fate is not known by now.

Upon restoration of Lithuania’s independence in 1918 Gintaras Karosas’ grandfather Vladimiras (1886–1947) was one of the first land planning officers graduating from the high school in the Tsar Russia. Vladimiras Karosas served as a clerk in Utena County planning service and hold a position of the land planning manager. On 16 February 1931, for his merits he was awarded by the President of the Republic of Lithuania A. Smetona with the Duke Gediminas order. The wife of Vladimiras Karosas was Kazimiera Ušackaitė (1906–1931).

In 1944 Gintaras Karosas’ grandfather retreated to the West and father Raimundas Karosas (born in 1928) was exiled by the Soviet occupants to Siberia, Komi oblast.

Gintaras Karosas was born on 25 June 1968 in Vilnius District. He started drawing in his early childhood and constructed an automobile some time later.
Of course, these and thousands more are not important, only immigrants to Poland must count. Emigrants, who left everything (or sold everything) and moved to the other country are the most important

But anyway, I hope Katsuma will come to Vilnius and knee in from of Gintaras Karosas.
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Old April 23rd, 2013, 07:35 PM   #885
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There were more nobles from the elite families. For instance, Giedraičiai or Giedroyć.
Few names:Juozapas Arnulfas Giedraitis (1754-1838) -
champion of education and patron of Lithuanian literature, he published in 1816 the first translation of the New testament into Samogitian (a dialect of the Lithuanian language);
Merkelis Giedraitis
in Pol. Melchior Giedroyć (1536-1609) - published and funded many books into lithuanian language, i.e.Katekizmas, arba mokslas kiekvienam krikščioniui privalus, 1595 m.; Supported M.Daukšą, Prepared Liithuanian-speaking priests.
Juozas Giedraitis (1892-1967)
-fighting as a volunteer in Lithuanian army against Red Army and Poland.

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Old April 23rd, 2013, 07:46 PM   #886
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Giedroyć Family

Franciszek Ignacy Dowmont Giedroyć (1869–1944, 14th generation in the line of Bartłomiej): Professor of the History and Philosophy of Medicine at the University of Warsaw, member of the Polish Academy of Sciences, co-founder of the Polish school of the history of medicine.

Tadeusz Giedroyć (1889/90-1941, 15th generation in the line of Bartłomiej): soldier, awarded the Polish Cross of Valour in 1918, and Cross of Independence in 1932; lawyer, administrator; Senator of the Second Polish Republic from 1938; imprisoned by the Russians in 1939, and subsequently murdered by the Soviet secret police, NKVD.

Jerzy Giedroyć - (1906–2000, 14th generation in the line of Aleksander): founder, editor and publisher of the literary-political journal Kultura. The Polish parliament declared 2006 the year of Jerzy Giedroyć.

Radziwiłł family

Catherine Radziwill, 1858–1941, Polish princess, stalked and ruined the career of Cecil Rhodes

Janusz Franciszek prince Radziwiłł, 1880-1967, Polish nobleman and politician.

Krzysztof Mikołaj Radziwiłł, 1898–1986, nicknamed "The Red Prince", Polish Member of the Sejm under the Communist regime

Anna Radziwiłł, 1939–2009, Polish senator, minister, secretary of state
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Old April 23rd, 2013, 08:19 PM   #887
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Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
Giedroyć Family

Franciszek Ignacy Dowmont Giedroyć (1869–1944, 14th generation in the line of Bartłomiej): Professor of the History and Philosophy of Medicine at the University of Warsaw, member of the Polish Academy of Sciences, co-founder of the Polish school of the history of medicine.

Tadeusz Giedroyć (1889/90-1941, 15th generation in the line of Bartłomiej): soldier, awarded the Polish Cross of Valour (Cross of Valour (Poland)) in 1918, and Cross of Independence in 1932; lawyer, administrator; Senator of the Second Polish Republic from 1938; imprisoned by the Russians in 1939, and subsequently murdered by the Soviet secret police, NKVD.

Jerzy Giedroyć - (1906–2000, 14th generation in the line of Aleksander): founder, editor and publisher of the literary-political journal Kultura. The Polish parliament declared 2006 the year of Jerzy Giedroyć.

Radziwiłł family

Catherine Radziwill, 1858–1941, Polish princess, stalked and ruined the career of Cecil Rhodes

Janusz Franciszek prince Radziwiłł, 1880-1967, Polish nobleman and politician.

Krzysztof Mikołaj Radziwiłł, 1898–1986, nicknamed "The Red Prince", Polish Member of the Sejm under the Communist regime

Anna Radziwiłł, 1939–2009, Polish senator, minister, secretary of state
So..? We can say that some of the members of mentioned noble families become part of Lithuania (XX) while others went to Poland. That is the main point and I do not see any problem.
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Old April 23rd, 2013, 08:22 PM   #888
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You are right, those, who chose so and moved to Poland are Giedroyć Family and Poles.
But than doesn't mean, that they are heirs of something in Lithuania and so that RS_UK-PL is also somehow heir of Lithuanian culture. They chose to be Poles and now are Poles. There are Giedraičiai in Lithuania. Lithuanians. This is who are heirs.

If my brother went to Serbia and marry there some Milena and had kids with her - Serbs and grandchildren - Serbs. And they say:
- Hey, our grandpa was from Lithuania, so now the house of his brother should belong to us and not to his kids and grandkids. This is from now on will be our common house. Our grandpa maybe helped his brother to built cellars of that house and maybe he even did not participated in the building or even was disturbing his brother during the building and agitating to better move to his house and help him building his house, also was stealing bricks and carrying them to Beograd to build his own house, but anyway, he is somehow heir of the house and the house must be common! And now all the Serbs will say so, that this is ALSO the house of Serbs or even the house of ONLY Serbs. What is more, there are only 3 grandsons of Lithuanians and 38 grandsons Serbs, so this prove, that that house was Serbish house! This just MUST be Serbish house as more grandsons!
And people not related to this family, some friend of these Serbs - RS_UK-SRs from Beograd will claim Lithuania just because they have neighbors or friends Serbs, whose grandpa once lived in Lithuania.

Really funny.
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Old April 23rd, 2013, 08:28 PM   #889
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Originally Posted by KonstantinasŠirvydas View Post
And all these persons, whose ancestors long time ago were Balts, Lithuanians, who chose to assimilate into Poles, who moved to Poland. That is all. One person can not sit on two chairs at once and draw all Lithuania to Poland just because they emigrated to that country and became Poles.
You certainly can argue against common sense, but it's not sustainable in the long run.

The complex issue of cultural assimilation (forced or voluntary) has been going on for millennia. That is why e.g. Germans claim part of the cultural heritage of the lands once populated by indigenous Prussians, or Austrian noble families like Kinsky or Radetzky may claim their partial heritage in Bohemia (Czech Republic).

In case of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, that issue is even more evident, as the Crown of Kingdom of Poland and the Grand Duchy of Lithuania were basically separate countries, and there was no Polish rule (administrative or military) over GDL lands. Hence, it shows the strength of Polonization process back then.

If you say that "one person can not sit on two chairs at once and draw all Lithuania to Poland just because they emigrated to that country and became Poles", that is incorrect. Those people, who considered themselves Lithuanians and members of Polish nation at the same time, had developed their national identity yet before they or their descendants "emigrated" to Poland e.g. after WW1. And their family records, memoirs, tombstones, etc. would confirm that.

But if you don't want for Poles to "sit on two chairs" because of that, that's fine with me. But you'd have to cross out borders between our and your heritage in contemporary Lithuania. How would it end up for you? Well, previously quoted Lithuanian historian, Šarūnas Liekis, gave the answer:
Quote:
By speculating retrospectively and identifying ourselves only with current forms of Lithuanianness, we cross out from our history all cities, crafts, wars. Since if we consider as Lithuanian only things created by Lithuanian-speakers – if we neglect to see identity shifts and changes in its forms – we are nothing more than a folklorized culture of wooden farm implements.


Quote:
Originally Posted by KonstantinasŠirvydas View Post
It would be stupid if 1 500 000 Lithuanians from the USA or 200 000 Lithuanian Brazilians, who now do not feel Lithuanians, but Brasilians and speak Portuguese, would go to Lithuanian threads or internet pages and would write, that Lithuania is the U.S.A. or Brazil, just because they emigrated from Lithuania 100 years ago, that they (together with other Brasilians of whatever ethnicity) are the real heirs of Kaunas cathedral and Gediminas castle, and Jonas, Petras, who live in Kaunas, Vilnius today, are not.
Well, if the ancestors of such people (Lithuanian Americans or Brazilians) e.g. had built palaces and founded churches in GDL or made contribution to enrichment of the then Lithuanian culture, they would be fully entitled to claim part of that heritage as their own. And they wouldn't have to ask anyone for permission to do so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KonstantinasŠirvydas View Post
P.S. Czartoryski are of Ukrainian ethnicity not Lithuanian, who were initially Orthodox and accepter Catholicism only in the 16th century. Absolutely nothing related to Lithuania. Yes, some of them lived in Lithuania. moved to Lithuania in 16-17 c. (Ukrainian cd plays in the Lithuanian house). So what?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTVuv...layer_embedded

Later they just the same moved to Poland and fully became Poles. The end of the "Lithuanian" Czartoryski story.
You sure about that?

1/ Czartoryski is the Gediminid magnate family. Their ancestor is the Grand Duke of Lithuania Algirdas' son.

2/ Coat of arms.

Pogoń Litewska - the coat of arms of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania:




Czartoryski Pogoń Litewska - the coat of arms of Czartoryski family:




BTW, the coat of arms of contemporary Lithuania (Vytis):




...and Belarus between 1991 and 95 (Pahonia):




Anyway, if Czartoryski Family is not Lithuanian enough, you can choose from a wide pool of Polish aristocratic houses, e.g. above quoted Radziwiłł, Sapieha, Tyszkiewicz, or Ogiński, Giedroyć, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KonstantinasŠirvydas View Post
But anyway, I hope Katsuma will come to Vilnius and knee in from of Gintaras Karosas.
Why would I do that? Do I claim that person was Polonized, Polish or considered himself as such? Keep the likes of that guy, Mr Gucevičius or Mr Čiurlionis (who learned Lithuanian only as an adult, by the way), etc. for yourselves.

What you keep failing to understand is that Poland is not a "bad bully", who claims the entire cultural heritage of territories covered by the former Grand Duchy of Lithuania as their own one. Our approach is as follows:

1/ The GDL legacy is shared among contemporary Lithuania, Belarus and Poland due to the fact that, after the creation of modern nations in 19th century, the inhabitants of former GDL ultimately identified themselves with one of the three nations: Lithuanian, Belarusian and Polish.

2/ You can't claim that all heritage located in the territory of present-day Lithuania is Lithuanian, just because it is now in the Rep. of Lithuania (way of thinking like "I am the owner of this house and f..ck the others"). The same goes for Belarus & Ukraine, as well as for Poland, in case of German heritage, and many other countries with complex history and mixed cultural influence.

If that's (emotionally) too hard for you Lithuanians to take in, I'm sorry to hear that, but - oh well - so be it...
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Old April 23rd, 2013, 08:31 PM   #890
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P.S. Andrius Giedraitis. Famous Lithuanian basketball player
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Old April 23rd, 2013, 08:35 PM   #891
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"You sure about that?"

Bla bla bla bla bla ... bla bla bla bla bla bla
Read Niesecki, Bonecki, not wikipedia articles, wrote by lamers, first and then speak.
Czartoryski are Ukrainians.
What is more, those funny examples you here put, are people from Southern Belarus and Ukraine, who emigrated to Poland, You use speaking about Lithuania. Genial!
Well, standard rhetorics of desperate Belarussian guy, searching for his lost identity.
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Old April 23rd, 2013, 09:04 PM   #892
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Let´s get back to East Prussia

I give you the sanctuary in
Krosno - Former Krossen in Warmia.

http://www.ordensland.de/Krossen/krosno_55.JPG


http://www.szlak-pielgrzymkowy.pl/0x...839273935ea5c9


http://www.ordensland.de/Krossen/a_krossen_254.jpg


http://www.ordensland.de/Krossen/orneta_535.jpg

Portals surrounding the sanctuary:

http://i.wm.pl/00/00/29/32/n/obraz-135-67179.jpg

Interiors:


http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/775/dsc0641p.jpg

Organs

http://www.szlak-pielgrzymkowy.pl/0x...215df4bafc40fe


http://www.marienburg.pl/files/krosn...00x600_109.jpg
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Old April 23rd, 2013, 11:17 PM   #893
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Damn, that's a nice one!
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Old April 24th, 2013, 12:08 AM   #894
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Žukai/Szugken. Lithuania
Village name origin is surname of local Lithuanians

Until XVIII a. in area lived only Lithuanians. In 1907 , in parish of Žukai/Szugken from 2300 only 1000 were Lithuanians.

Famous people who worked and lived here:
Poet, writer Kritupas Kropaitis (1843 - 1911)
Vilius Gaigalaitis (1870 - 1945)

Church was built in 1904.


https://ssl.panoramio.com/photo/23778385


http://www.panoramio.com/photo/49495281

Inside church
http://www.panoramas.lt/m_katalog.php?p_id=2457&lg=5
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>> MY PHOTO THREAD ABOUT LITHUANIA
>>MY PHOTOS FROM KLAIPĖDA (MEMEL)
>>> OLD LITHUANIA




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Old April 24th, 2013, 12:21 AM   #895
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Vanagai / Wannaggen. Lithuania
Village name origin comes from Lithuanian word "vanagas" which means "hawk".

Church was built in 1909.
Here was born Ieva Simonaitytė (1897–1978)


http://www.panoramio.com/photo/49619898


http://www.panoramio.com/photo/49619898

Rectory

http://www.panoramio.com/photo/36691542

Place via google street view
https://maps.google.lt/maps?q=Vanaga...12.84,,0,-6.76
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>>MY PHOTOS FROM KLAIPĖDA (MEMEL)
>>> OLD LITHUANIA




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Old April 24th, 2013, 12:32 AM   #896
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Nice story:
Quote:
Originally Posted by KonstantinasŠirvydas View Post
You can not go to one's house and say:
- Hey, I stayed at your house last year for a month, because You allowed me so, so now it is our common house, not only yours. What is more, this room, the room of Your's is actually my room (because You were very friendly and let me sleep in Your bed).
Yes, we decide, if we want our friends would live in our house by our own will. They can paint the walls of our house, they can make gifts to us-the owner of the house (it can be nice painting, a book, a cd), but this thing, that they make the house nicer, more cosy, doesn't make this house into theirs. It is still our house. Nicer one, more diverse, more interesting. That is all. Yes, the cd can be of Polish musician, let's say Doda, the painting can be of prominent Polish painter, the book - of Polish writer, but this can not make the Lithuanian house into Polish house and the owner.......
but it wasn't quite like that.

Let me describe it using your manner - there were two families the Crown of the Kingdom of Poland ( established by Poles) and Grand Duchy of Lithuania (created by Lithuanians and Ruthenians). Jogaila - heritor of the Grand Duchy was invited by the Crown family into their house ( certainly he was eager to go cause the Crown family had young daughter looking for a husband and much bigger riches than he has had). He was asked to sit at the most honourable place at the table. The Crown family offered him a hand of family's fortune heritor - Queen Jadwiga. They got married (1386) and from now on we've got one family - the Union.
Relatives of Jogaila were adopted to the Crown family ( Union of Horodło 1413 - Lithuanian nobles were adopted into Polish heraldic families and granted Polish coats of arm).
And at last Mutual Pledge of the Two Nations (1791 - Polish Crown and Grand Duchy create one state called Republic of Poland) - what a beautiful symbol of family's affection.

Now after few hundred years of both glory and decline some small part of Jogaila's family demands let's say half of the fortune ( present-day Lithuania established by new elite, mostly descendants of Lithuanian peasants - no offence, just a fact - who had nothing to say in Grand Duchy of Lithuania claim that the heritage of Grand Duchy is theirs and only theirs - at least they admit there were some Poles who gave them "gifts" and some Ruthenians who have "painted walls").


Quote:
Originally Posted by KonstantinasŠirvydas View Post
plus ratio quam vis, I am visiting Poland every year many times and believe me, I am not searching desperately there for "Lithuanian signs", like mad Polish mates in Lithuania, but enjoy Polish culture.
Don't be so irritated. Are you talking about some oldies comming to Vilnius/Wilno, reminiscing good times of their youth or children who, for the first time in their lives, are happy to see place they know as "Lithuania, my homeland".

BTW there's lots of Germans visiting Gdansk. Probably majority of them don't have any idea of long Polish history of the city but there's a chance that during such journey some of them will discover it and find it interesting. So if you meet "a mad Polish mate" in Vilnius you'll have an opportunity to present him non-nationalistic point of view on our history.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KonstantinasŠirvydas View Post
Only coat of arms, not "Lithuania in Poland".
Of course - what we're talking here is heritage of Grand Duchy. No one wants to change borders. ( BTW In my opinion Poland should have friendly relations with Lithuania, help Belarussians to get rid of Łukaszenko and support Ukraine on its way to EU. However Polish efforts should be directed mainly towards closer cooperation and integration with Vysehrad Group countries - this is Polish vital raison d'État and looks like our politicians understand that - and this is a good info for those Lithuanians who don't tolerate all kinds of Polishness.

P.S. No offence but where did you get such informations?:
Quote:
Originally Posted by KonstantinasŠirvydas View Post
Jogaila is Lithuanian and more than thousand of Lithuanians studied in Krakow University in the 14th-17th centuries, but I will never be so arrogant to call Krakow University - created by Lithuanians Lithuanian heritage and never call Krakow - Lithuanian city (also, Lithuanian-built city), because of "Dominance of Lithuanians in Krakow in the 14-16th centuries".
I'm "quite" familiar with Cracow's history and its Alma Mater but still such statement sounds funny and exotic. I assure you that powerful lords of Polonia Minor wouldn't allow anyone to play their role.
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Old April 24th, 2013, 01:53 AM   #897
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plus ratio quam vis View Post
Nice story


Now after few hundred years of both glory and decline some small part of Jogaila's family demands let's say half of the fortune ( present-day Lithuania established by new elite, mostly descendants of Lithuanian peasants - no offence, just a fact - who had nothing to say in Grand Duchy of Lithuania claim that the heritage of Grand Duchy is theirs and only theirs - at least they admit there were some Poles who gave them "gifts" and some Ruthenians who have "painted walls").

.
I think Konstantinas will reply to Your comment, but i want to share some of my insights.
First of all, you must understand that lithuanian society is not a hierarchical one, so the fact that someone had a nobel history doesn't make any impact. Here in Lithuania it is completely unimportant fact. neither in past, nor present. Sometimes conflicts might arise when we ignore important features of society.
Many of those "peasants" actually were more educated and well-acknowledge or had more fortune (or associated with local noble families by marriage) than mostly all local nobles. Paradoxically, but this is a fact.
I do not know well Poland history, but according to wiki, many of Second Polish Republic politicians also were not from nobles...so who created modern Poland....? Democracy, my friend
Btw, I think you know, but...Stanislovas Narutavičius in Lithuania and Gabriel Narutowicz - First Poland's President - were brothers. This is a quite good example that he same family members had chosen different ways of their live.

Actually several times it was confirmed/stated about Poles in GDL and their heritage, but what I want to say or what I want to emphasis on are the facts, which sadly are unknown to someone: about lithuanians/language/traditions/identity etc. Maybe you do not know some facts about GDL (and this is completely understandable) and particularly about northern part of it - Lithuania - but that is why we are trying to discuss and share some examples. Still many people have a quite stereotypical outlook.
About GDL. Very interesting book - Rowell, S. C. Lithuania Ascending: A Pagan Empire within East-Central Europe, 1295–1345 (Cambridge studies in medieval life and thought, ser. 4, No. 25). Cambridge, 1994 (1995, 1997, 2000); really recommend.
We do not ignore Ruthenians contribution into GDL development, btw. But the fact that they were treated differently - well, this is also a fact.
GDL was some kind of mix between local pagan state and ruthenian lands. Until the end of GDL, state as corpus remained untouched by both cultures, that means, both cultures made a contribution to development, but they did not affect each other, so there were no common culture of GDL. It would be a waste of time to speak about this issue while this thread is not about GDL/Commonwealth.
Krakow university. I think it was irony, but: Jonas Vaidutis, grandson of Grand Duke Kęstutis, son of Butautas, was the second rector of university. Since 1401 about 188 lithuanian studied in Krakow, later - in XVI cent. - about 168.
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Old April 24th, 2013, 02:32 AM   #898
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plus ratio quam vis, Jogaila is Your's, please take him and keep him. We as friends, donate him for You with our Presidents, Poets, Painters, Cultural figures. He have more for ourselves and are generous!
But Jogaila, while going from one house to another, did not take the whole house "Lithuania" and did not put it "inside" () the larger house - "Poland" (not because the house "Poland" was 5 times smaller than Lithuanian one, but because of other reasons). There were just two houses nearby, separated by the border and different legislative base (owner of Poland house could't settle in the house Lithuania or buy land in it's courtyard) and when neighbor went to live to the other- this doesn't mean, that now all the people, who are owners of that house, somehow "belong" to the owners of the other, just because of his departure. Owners are not slaves as You wanna see Lithuanians. Poor You. The funniest thing is that when Jogaila went to live into Your house, he not just went to live there and "painted walls", but went there to order "hey, owners of the flat, now go to that corner of the house", "hey You, another owner, now please paint that wall into yellow color, I like it more, than the previous color" and You were doing it - everything vice-versa than You are trying to present every time! So, as You see, there was clear "Lithuanian dominance". Also, peasant-pagan Jogaila later re-established University in Krakow (ever thought why it is names Jagiellonian university, not Kazimierzski???).
Nevermind. About the Lithuanian Krakow, please read in this book, named "Lithuanian Krakow, 14-16th centuries"

Urban, Wacław, Lūžys, Sigitas. Cracovia lithuanorum saeculis XIV-XVI = Lietuvių Krokuva XIV-XVI amžiais
http://galerija.kvb.lt/index.php?q=g...g2_itemId=2765


Don't You know, that Krakow, that Mūsų Krokuva, was often named Cracovia Lithuanorum then?

Later more and more Liths came to Your house and also began to order like Jogaila-dude. Various Radvilas, for example. "Go to that corner, paint me that painting".

I am here not trying to say, that Poland is somehow heritage of Lithuania, created, built by Lithuanians, nor I am interesting in it, but only interpret Your own words.

And about peasants. Again. In Poland, there were around 4-5% of nobility, figures a little bit larger only in Masovia.
In Lithuania, there were up to 15% nobility in Vilnius region and up to 20% in Samogitia. So it is more likely, that accidentally chosen contemporary Pole will be the descendant of "peasant" and not "noble" than accidentally chosen contemporary Lithuanian.

With noble families. Again. The fact, that some Beata Tyszkiewicz is the descendant of the nobility from Southern Bielorussia doesn't make her into the descendant of Tiškevičiai manors in Kretinga. The fact, that some Ukrainians Czartoryski from Southern Bielorussia immigrated to Poland, doesn't make them into heroes in Lithuania or something like that (owners, heirs, etc.). I have very distant relatives in the U.S.A. too. Actually, I never seen them nor I know how they look.
Also, if You know some other person with well-known surname in Poland, doesn't mean, that something in Lithuania belong him or his ancestors created something there as there are thousands of people with the same surname too, but only in Lithuanian, who live in Lithuania today.
Also, heritage is continuation. House need to be repaired, repaint, grass in the yard needs to be cut, etc. You can not leave the house (when it was in not so good shape, with holes in the walls), then go back after 20 years and after seeing "upgraded" house, restored, with the grass nicely cut, with the new tiles on the roof, tell:
- hey, I once lived there! This must is common house!
- Wait, You sold your room and left.
-Well, yeah, but I once lived there too, it is nice it must belong to me! Give it to me!

- You sold it and chose another house.
- No, I need two house. Oh, another neighbor's house is as nice. I need Your house too!

Anyway. Here is something.
Quote:
The number of New Citizens in Vilnius according to the countries of origin in 1661–1795

Grand Duchy of Lithuania 3139

Kingdom of Poland 334

Germany 305

Eastern Prussian 251

Dominion of Habsburgs (Austria, Czechia) 89

Curonia and Livonia 64

Russia 44

Scandinavia 16

Mediterranean coast 14

Balcans 7

France 6

Switzerland 5

Holland 3

England 2

Armenia 1

Persia 1

Unmarked 62

Undefined 10

Urbanavičius A. Vilniaus naujieji miestiečiai 1661–1795 m. – Vilnius, 2005, p. 216.
Quote:
3. New citizens of Vilnius in 1661–1795

The New Citizens of Vilnius after 1661

“The meaning of conception of a „New citizen“ is such: it is an adult person of male gender, who swears (or has just sworn) the fidelity for the city government and for this reason becomes a member of citizens’ estate. This phenomenon is also called as “admission to the city” both in the sources and in historiography. The phrase “a new citizen” is the equivalent to the Latin term “civis novus”. By this term a person admitted to the citizens was called in the books of Vilnius city council acts and in the protocol books. This term is used also in historiographies of the neighbour states, in the towns of which the Magdeburg Law was effectual, it means of Germany (“Neubürger”) and Poland (“nowy obywatel”).

We know about the new citizens from the so called “new citizens’ acts”. These acts are one of many sorts of records, prepared at the Vilnius council office. They are important because of fact that there the data, which is the most necessary for the exploration, is presented: the name of a new citizen, the title of activity, place of origin and date of city right receiving.” – P. 12-13.

“The available data show that the activity of the municipality – the authority governing the Magdeburg-Law part of the city – was renewed completely after 1663, i.e. afer the wars and other disasters of the mid-seventeenth century. There are also some data about new citizens going back to 1661. Therefore this year is taken as the starting point of the period under investigation, and its end is the date of the Third Partition (1795) of Poland and Lithuania by Austria, Prussia and Russia, thus mrking the demise of the GDL”. – P. 377.
Speaking about Tiškevičiai. Palanga.
Quote:
Here is a tomb of the former owner of the Palanga manor - Alfredas Tiškevičius.



photos: ************
From the interview with the owner Tiškevičius.
Quote:
- Pradėjote pokalbį dar gana gražia žemaitiška šneka. Nuo to laiko, kai Jūs gyvenote Žemaitijoje, praėjo tiek metų, o šios kalbos, nors ja tėvų namuose ir nekalbėjote, neužmiršote...

- Išaugau Palangoje. Mano draugai buvo žemaičiai, tad su jais nuo mažens bendravau ir jų gimtąja kalba šnekėjau. Na, o tai, kas vaikystėje išmokta, taip greit neužsimiršta, nors jau prieš pat karą, išvykus į Kauną, retai kada prisieidavo kalbėti žemaitiškai. Ten naujieji mano bičiuliai daugiausia buvo aukštaičiai, tad su jais bendraudavome bendrine lietuvių kalba - būdavo lyg tai ir nepatogu žemaitiškai su aukštaičiu kalbėti. Žemaičių kalbos niekada neniekinau, nors dar tarpukario metais tekdavo sutikti žemaičių, kurie gėdydavosi savo gimtosios motinos kalbos... Jie manydavo, kad, kalbėdami žemaitiškai, nieko gyvenime nepasieks, nes, aukštaičiai juos laikys žemesnės kilmės žmonėmis. Man toks požiūris visai nepatiko. Dabar, atvažiavęs į Lietuvą, Žemaitiją, matau, kad vis dėlto didžioji dalis žemaičių išliko žemaičiais iki pat šiol. Tas mane labai džiugina. Na, o gyvendamas Lenkijoje, Varšuvoje, net ir lietuviškai beveik neturėjau su kuo kalbėti. Pradžioje, per karą, Lenkijoje buvo vokiečių okupacija, o po karo - pusiau rusų okupacija. Valdžia, nors ir buvo lenkiška, bet priklausė nuo rusų - įstatymai ėjo iš Maskvos. Aš žinojau, kas vyko Lietuvoje prie sovietinės valdžios 1940 metais ir po karo. Tad, Lenkijoje susiklosčius minėtoms politinėms sąlygoms, aš priėjau išvados, kad nereikia niekam aiškinti, kokia mano kilmė, kad mano jaunystė praėjo Lietuvoje. Tuo laiku niekas nebuvo tikras, kad neįvyks koks nors nesusipratimas ir Lenkija neatsidurs dar didesnėje rusų valdžioje. Tada man, grafų Tiškevičių sūnui, ko gero, būtų reikėję atsirasti Sibire...

- Kaip Jūs atsidūrėte Lenkijoje?

- 1940 metais, prieš įvedant sovietinę valdžią Lietuvoje, kartą aš su motociklu stovėjau pasienyje. Vokiečiai, pamatę mane, įtarė kažką negero ir suėmė. Kai patekau į jų kalėjimą, kišenėje nė cento neturėjau, nė muilo gabalo nebuvau pasiėmęs. Tad, kai į Lietuvą atėjo rusai, aš sėdėjau vokiečių kalėjime Tilžėje. Tuo laiku man tai buvo tikras išsigelbėjimas - rusai manęs Lietuvoje nerado ir į Sibirą neišvežė. Beje, jie netikėjo, kad aš galiu būti vokiečių kalėjime - manė, kad aš esu pabęgęs. Kai vokiečiai, pripažinę jog esu nekaltas, paleido iš kalėjimo, man jie leido apsigyventi Lenkijoje, taip jų tada vadinamoje generalinėje gubernijoje. Tada aš grįžau į pasienį, prie Bajorų, pas vieną ūkininką, kur vėliau atvyko ir mano pirmoji žmona su septynių mėnesių vaiku. Eitavičius suorganizavo žmonos pabėgimą per žalią sieną į vokiečių pusę. Tada visi trys nuvažiavome į Varšuvą. Ten gyveno žmonos šeima, tad ir mes ten pasilikome. Po to man grįžti į Lietuvą iki pat Nepriklausomybės atkūrimo jau buvo nebeįmanoma - ten manęs laukė tik represijos, trėmimas.
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Old April 24th, 2013, 03:38 AM   #899
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A little bit more about "Lithuanian house".
It was large house. Lithuanians and Belarussians lived in it. Well, Belarussian had the whole second floor, larer one - with more rooms. But but... The most important "rooms" - kitchen, toilet, garage - were on the first floor, that belonged to Lithuania. Also, Lithuanians had doors from the house and some Liths could go to the city to hang out. Doors are important.

During the life of the house, some members of the family on both floor, fell in love with Polish cds. One family member, who went to the concert the last day, bought a cd and played it. Soon he convinced some family members, that it is great music and others said, that they themselves like it. So they every day were buying new cds and listening more and more music, a little bit forget Lithuanian geniuses like e.g. Laimutis Purvinis or Rytis Cicinas.





And also there was neighbor house nearby, where owner had a stunning collection of Polish cds! So of course, he invited to his house to listen to his cd family members, was giving gifts. Everything was ok, but later he began secretly sneak to the house and himself put his cds without permission! That naughty neighbor.

But later, Polish music is ok, but family members again remembered Lithuanian music.
Of course, it was not easy, as some members of the family this time told, that Lithuanian music is "not so cool" and so on. But, they again listen to it mostly. The neighbor is somehow mad and sometimes sneak to the house secretly and tries to put his cds, but usually get caught and again Lithuanian cd is put back.

And Belarussians. It seems that another neighbor make them listening Russian bands like Ruki Verch, Dima Bilan. But it seems they themselves like it and do not listen to Pesniary.

And Lithuanians listen to the modern Lithuanian music.
Despite neighbor told, that his cds are the best and nothing better can be found from Lith. music, the family somehow managed to find quality Lithuanian music.


The end of the story.
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Old April 24th, 2013, 11:47 AM   #900
greg111
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Biographical note of Alfred Tyszkiewicz, polish-lithuanian noble.
http://lt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfreda...1kevi%C4%8Dius
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