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Old April 24th, 2013, 12:23 PM   #901
katsuma
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KonstantinasŠirvydas View Post
Bla bla bla bla bla ... bla bla bla bla bla bla
Read Niesecki, Bonecki, not wikipedia articles, wrote by lamers, first and then speak.
Again, contemporary Lithuanians learning about Lithuanian history from the books of Polish scholars. And if no better arguments are available, bash Wikipedia. Hell yeah!

Quote:
Originally Posted by KonstantinasŠirvydas View Post
Well, standard rhetorics of desperate Belarussian guy, searching for his lost identity.
I think I understand where your Belarus-obsession is coming from. Are Belarusians trying to "steal" your heritage as well? Ahh, you poor thing...

Quote:
Originally Posted by KonstantinasŠirvydas View Post
Speaking about Tiškevičiai. Palanga.
Quote:
Here is a tomb of the former owner of the Palanga manor - Alfredas Tiškevičius.


(...)
That's great. But it seems that, while erecting the tombstone of Alfredas Tiškevičius, the officials at Palanga/Połąga probably didn't want to spoil the good nationalistic mood and didn't get to put Alfredas' places of birth and death, which was Cracow and Warsaw respectively.

Anyway, the subject of epitaphs and tombstones of Polish-Lithuanian magnates located in present-day Lithuania has been certainly discussed before as well.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...&postcount=116
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...2&postcount=63

Let's refresh our memory anyway...

1/ Epitaph in Latin & Polish on the tomb of Teodor Ogiński in Kruonis/Kronie:




...and its translation into Lithuanian:





2/ Epitaph of Jerzy Tyszkiewicz in the Vilnius Cathedral: http://fotoforum.gazeta.pl/photo/1/q...w5eZaBXdMX.jpg

3/ Tombstone of Eustachy Tyszkiewicz on the Rossa Cemetary in Vilnius/Wilno: http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/3...tyszkiewic.jpg

4/ Tombstone of Mikołaj Tyszkiewicz in Kretinga/Kretynga: http://www.genealogia.okiem.pl/foto2...GP4164%7E0.JPG

5/ Sarcophagi of Radziwiłł Family at the crypt in Kedainai/Kiejdany, including the one of Janusz Radziwiłł:
http://i3.fmix.pl/fmi2017/3abea11700290b7b4df1e4d2 , http://i2.fmix.pl/fmi765/89bdac910027ab334ded115d , http://i1.fmix.pl/fmi79/133af5000011561f4df1e4c3

etc.
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Old April 24th, 2013, 01:49 PM   #902
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Paweł Franciszek Roman Sanguszko - the only male member of Sanguszko family
Tamara Czartoryska - descendant of Gediminas (father: Adam Karol Czartoryski)
Not Poles (Pawel Franciszek Roman Sanguszko holds Polish ID, but he lives abroad), neither Lithuanians...

I've checked Tyszkiewicz family tree (Lithuanian line) and it looks like almost all members of family live in Poland now.
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Old April 24th, 2013, 04:01 PM   #903
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RS_UK-PL, be sure to check Vilnius, Kaunas telephone books. Have good discoveries.
And again. Czartoryski are RURIKID, not Gediminid.

Katsuma, there are thousands of tombstones in Latin. Are You trying to say, that these people were... Romans?

Katsuma, please take historian Dlugošas or poet Sarbievijus, or lawyer Rotundas or poet Husovianas and read it in original language. They were Poles, right? Go and read. I will wait for Your impressions. Please share with us it later. Also would be nice, that You comment why they are Poles or why they must be Poles.

Here is an extraction. I believe it is pure Polish language:

Carmen de statura, feritate ac venatione bisontis

Quod Plocensis dum se facturum promisisset, datis ad Raduvilonem, Vilnensem Palatinum, super pelle quam maxima huius animantis consequenda litteris, mihi, suo tunc familiari, iniunxit, ut aliquid super natura et venatione huius ferae scriberem, volens eius speciem tam re, quam verbis, Pontifici exhibere. Sed omnia illa celeri morte Leonis in nihilum deciderunt. Restat tamen opusculum, per me tunc pro ingenii et temporis parvitate factum, quod sub nomine tuae Maiestatis publicandum decrevi, idque tibi loco muneris exigui do, sperans aliquando futurum, quod dum Regia Maiestas suo more venatum ierit, hic te libellus, silvestria continens, ad sui lectionem alliciet, qua ego non tam rebus meis prodesse cupio, quam viris doctis iter sua scripta offerendi patefacere, ut tu, Princeps doctissima, de ipsorum ingeniis iudices et quos praecipuos videris, Serenissimo Consorti tuo, quem plus bellis gerendis, quam libris legendis vacare necesse est, commendes. Video nam cum maximo meo dolore et profecto cum quodam damno Reipublicae fecundissima pectora iacere neglectui et se propter angustiam rei familiaris proferre non posse. Non paucos item et opibus et ingeniis longe praestantes conspicio. Qui dum litterarum peritos levipendi animadvertunt, cumulare divitias, quam animos excolere malunt et propter rem tam vilem iacturam faciunt in nobilissima sui parte.

But as I am not familiar with it, please translate me from Polish to English. Thank You, lost Belarussian guy.
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Old April 24th, 2013, 05:04 PM   #904
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Originally Posted by Prosp View Post
I think Konstantinas will reply to Your comment, but i want to share some of my insights.
First of all.................
more or less your opinion is reasonable and close to historical truth. What have not much to do with history is permanent insisting that present-day Lithuania = Grand Duchy of Lithuania (logical conclusion of opinions presented by e.g. Konstantinas). I understand that some Lithuanian politicians and historians want to build state and culture ethnically pure - and I'm ok with it. However Grand Duchy is one of the most important elements of Polish culture that's why I can't agree with lies or half-trues about it.



Quote:
Originally Posted by KonstantinasŠirvydas View Post
plus ratio quam vis, Jogaila is Your's, please take him and keep him. We as friends, donate him for You with our Presidents, Poets, Painters, Cultural figures. He have more for ourselves and are generous! But Jogaila, while going from one house to another, did not take the whole house "Lithuania" and did not put it "inside" () the larger house - "Poland" (not because the house "Poland" was 5 times smaller than Lithuanian one, but because of other reasons). There were just two houses nearby, separated by the border and different legislative base (owner of Poland house could't settle in the house Lithuania or buy land in it's courtyard) and when neighbor went to live to the other- this doesn't mean, that now all the people, who are owners of that house, somehow "belong" to the owners of the other, just because of his departure. Owners are not slaves as You wanna see Lithuanians. Poor You. The funniest thing is that when Jogaila went to live into Your house, he not just went to live there and "painted walls", but went there to order "hey, owners of the flat, now go to that corner of the house", "hey You, another owner, now please paint that wall into yellow color, I like it more, than the previous color" and You were doing it - everything vice-versa than You are trying to present every time! So, as You see, there was clear "Lithuanian dominance". Also, peasant-pagan Jogaila later re-established University in Krakow (ever thought why it is names Jagiellonian university, not Kazimierzski???).
Nevermind. About the Lithuanian Krakow, please read in this book, named "Lithuanian Krakow, 14-16th centuries"

Urban, Wacław, Lūžys, Sigitas. [B]Cracovia lithuanorum saeculis XIV-XVI......

Don't You know, that Krakow, that Mūsų Krokuva, was often named Cracovia Lithuanorum then?

Later more and more Liths came to Your house and also began to order like Jogaila-dude. Various Radvilas, for example. "Go to that corner, paint me that painting".

I am here not trying to say, that Poland is somehow heritage of Lithuania, created, built by Lithuanians, nor I am interesting in it, but only interpret Your own words.

And about peasants. Again. In Poland, there were around 4-5% of nobility, figures a little bit larger only in Masovia.
In Lithuania, there were up to 15% nobility in Vilnius region and up to 20% in Samogitia. So it is more likely, that accidentally chosen contemporary Pole will be the descendant of "peasant" and not "noble" than accidentally chosen contemporary Lithuanian.

With noble families. Again. The fact, that some Beata Tyszkiewicz is the descendant of the nobility from Southern Bielorussia doesn't make her into the descendant of Tiškevičiai manors in Kretinga. The fact, that some Ukrainians Czartoryski from Southern Bielorussia immigrated to Poland, doesn't make them into heroes in Lithuania or something like that (owners, heirs, etc.). I have very distant relatives in the U.S.A. too. Actually, I never seen them nor I know how they look.
Also, if You know some other person with well-known surname in Poland, doesn't mean, that something in Lithuania belong him or his ancestors created something there as there are thousands of people with the same surname too, but only in Lithuanian, who live in Lithuania today.
Also, heritage is continuation. House need to be repaired, repaint, grass in the yard needs to be cut, etc. You can not leave the house (when it was in not so good shape, with holes in the walls), then go back after 20 years and after seeing "upgraded" house, restored, with the grass nicely cut, with the new tiles on the roof, tell:
- hey, I once lived there! This must is common house!

- Wait, You sold your room and left.
-Well, yeah, but I once lived there too, it is nice it must belong to me! Give it to me!

- You sold it and chose another house.
- No, I need two house. Oh, another neighbor's house is as nice. I need Your house too!
Complexes shouldn't play so important role in people's and nation's existence.
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Old April 24th, 2013, 09:17 PM   #905
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very entertaining discussion, glad we are not fighting below the belt. hope some day we all find a way to strengthen our identity and national esprit de corps while celebrating instead of dismissing our complex heritage....we are so European.
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Warsaw Post-War Reconstruction to Present

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Old April 24th, 2013, 09:40 PM   #906
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plus ratio quam vis, I am glad You are OK with the fact, that Jogailas and Radvilas and various Narutavičius' ruled Poland. That many scholars, many poets, many architects, many engineers created for Poland (Lithuanians built bridges like dude from Panevėžys; created "Polish" architectural styles like Zakopane style, invented by Lithuanian from Samogitia ; created National poems with the words "Lithuania - My Fatherland"; were Presidents, Kings and so on). I am glad You are open minded enough to recognize it and do not have national inferiority complexes, willing to share it. Only we are not interested in Krokuva, nor in "Polish" Zakopane style. No, we are interested, but we are not greedy and we do not try to steal these things from Poland and Poles, like greedy Poles, when speaking about Lithuania (this is seen in their eyes, also their saliva dribble).

P.S. I hope You liked that book about Lithuanian Krokuva.
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Old April 25th, 2013, 12:58 PM   #907
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I'm sure that nobody will deny that Polonised Germans and Lithuanians (including large group of Ruthenians and some Balts) had great input in the Polish Crown's development and culture. As well as Lithuanians shouldn't deny that Polonised Ruthenians, Lithuanians (who voluntarily adopted Polish language, Catholic religion, etc.) and also Poles had great input in development and culture of Grand Duchy of Lithuania.

One of many Anti-Polish protests in Vilnius


Youtube channel about Poles in Lithuania - link

I recommend to watch some interviews with Polish Litwini (Wilno dialect is fabulous).
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Old April 25th, 2013, 02:09 PM   #908
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Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
I'm sure that nobody will deny that Polonised Germans and Lithuanians (including large group of Ruthenians and some Balts) had great input in the Polish Crown's development and culture. As well as Lithuanians shouldn't deny that Polonised Ruthenians, Lithuanians (who voluntarily adopted Polish language, Catholic religion, etc.) and also Poles had great input in development and culture of Grand Duchy of Lithuania.

One of many Anti-Polish protests in Vilnius


Youtube channel about Poles in Lithuania - link

I recommend to watch some interviews with Polish Litwini (Wilno dialect is fabulous).
\

This video has nothing to do with anti-Polish protests )
What is your opinion about...

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Old April 25th, 2013, 02:44 PM   #909
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Why you will not mention Artur Ludkowski (former deputy mayor of Vilnius), Artur Płokszto (secretary of Ministry of National Defence of Lithuania), Jarosław Narkiewicz (Vice-President of the Lithuanian Parliament), Jarosław Niewierowicz (minister of energy, former vice-minister of foreign affairs), etc.?

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Old April 25th, 2013, 03:05 PM   #910
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Why you will not mention Artur Ludkowski (former deputy mayor of Vilnius), Artur Płokszto (secretary of Ministry of National Defence of Lithuania), Jarosław Narkiewicz (Vice-President of the Lithuanian Parliament), Jarosław Niewierowicz (minister of energy, former vice-minister of foreign affairs), etc.?
Why should I mention them? i respond to Your posted video, which is not somehow associated with Poles. Btw, I really like J.Niewierowicz and appreciate his competence in issues of energetcs.
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Old April 25th, 2013, 03:51 PM   #911
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I really like J.Niewierowicz and appreciate his competence in issues of energetcs.
I'm really glad that you like Mr.Niewierowicz and what is more important, you didn't Lithuanize his name. Hopefully, more Polish Litwini will be respected in Lithuania.
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Old April 25th, 2013, 04:24 PM   #912
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I'm really glad that you like Mr.Niewierowicz and what is more important, you didn't Lithuanize his name. Hopefully, more Polish Litwini will be respected in Lithuania.
Actually, Niewierowicz he will improve the immage of the Polish minority in Lithuania a lot. Before him, only wackoes like Tomaszewski (which, in addition to all of the nonsense about Polish-Lithuanians, he also spoke about the ban on abortions, building of "Sanctuarium" etc.) were seen in media.
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Old April 25th, 2013, 04:49 PM   #913
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Originally Posted by KonstantinasŠirvydas View Post
plus ratio quam vis, I am glad You are OK with the fact, that Jogailas and Radvilas and various Narutavičius' ruled Poland. That many scholars, many poets, many architects, many engineers created for Poland (Lithuanians built bridges like dude from Panevėžys; created "Polish" architectural styles like Zakopane style, invented by Lithuanian from Samogitia ; created National poems with the words "Lithuania - My Fatherland"; were Presidents, Kings and so on). I am glad You are open minded enough to recognize it and do not have national inferiority complexes, willing to share it. Only we are not interested in Krokuva, nor in "Polish" Zakopane style. No, we are interested, but we are not greedy and we do not try to steal these things from Poland and Poles, like greedy Poles, when speaking about Lithuania (this is seen in their eyes, also their saliva dribble).

P.S. I hope You liked that book about Lithuanian Krokuva.
You've wrote lots of "original" things and what is clearly noticeable you often use words like: "Polish nationalists, chauvinists, greedy Poles, Polish mad mates, desperate Belarussian guy searching for his lost identity, Czartoryski are of Ukrainian ethnicity not Lithuanian absolutely nothing related to Lithuania" - in purpose to exclude people or nations from your version of history.

It looks like you see everywhere chauvinists (especially among people who don't agree with you ).

History tells us that the biggest enemy of one chauvinist is not an anti-chauvinist but other chauvinist.

Probably that's why you distinguish and separate people so earnestly by their ethnicity ( all those "Polish/Ukrainian/Belarussian cd's that were played in Lithuanian house").
And probably that's why it's inconceivable to you that Polish doesn't mean ethnically Polish or Lithuanianess of Grand Duchy is not equivalent to ethnic Lithuanianess of your dreamed Lithuania. This is a reason for pride to me and people you name "desperate Belarussian...searching for lost identity".

P.S. As for the fantasy I prefer Lem's stories - imagine he was a Pole of Jewish origin. Incomprehensible ? An anti-chauvinistic fact.

P.S. 2. "Excluding" version of Grand Duchy's history is not worth of studying cause it's simply untrue.
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Old April 25th, 2013, 04:51 PM   #914
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I'm really glad that you like Mr.Niewierowicz and what is more important, you didn't Lithuanize his name. Hopefully, more Polish Litwini will be respected in Lithuania.
Speaking frankly, it is quite difficult to pronounce polish surnames Lithuanian language (pronunciation) is absolutely different than in Polish language and if you pronounce it differently than in original form, well it might be not so good...
I do not know what do you know about present-day Poles of Lithuania, but recent statistics/survey, conducted by one Poland's authority (?)/ organisation, clearly conclude that there are no discrimantion and more than half of respondents (Lt poles) confirmed that. Gazeta Wyborcza wrote about it.
I think we are against some proposals of Polish party, for instance, prohibition of abortion. Because of strong women rights/femine (it comes from custom law/lex non scripta) as a cultural or tradiotionally consequence of the society mindset (behaviour, approach). Or, let's stay, proposal of...compulsary education of religion. Which is a nonsense for us (majority).
So when we do not agree with such proposals, some Poles, mainly with orthodoxical beliefs (Tomaszewski; btw, even Poland's media is criticizing him), think that we are against them...I think here is the problem. So i do believe that J.Niewierowicz as a young generation politician, might become a significant leader and change the climate.
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Old April 25th, 2013, 06:30 PM   #915
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Tomaševskis just bullshiting. Tomša, he just want to show of telling that Lithuania such an evil country - ignores and oppress ethnic minorities especialy Pols. He "don't want to see" what situation is in Poland, talking about ethnic minorities situation, and he declaring that he-political party want better conditions for Pols, when Lithuanians have more severe conditions in Poland (talking about educatio). Lithuanians learn polish languege becose they live in that country and respects country lows, same country.
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Old April 25th, 2013, 07:34 PM   #916
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Niewierowicz - the brand new face of polonization!
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Old April 25th, 2013, 11:53 PM   #917
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It is high time to quote "Poles" magnates of the GDL Radvilas and diplomat from Florence, who was visiting Poland in the 16th century. One illustrate their own identity and other shows the "importance" of language used. Some plus ratio quam vises can't ignore their own identity and say well, yeah, blah, blah, they said they were Lithuanians, but a,b,c,d,e shows, that being Lithuanian is actually being a Pole. Please, use
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor
Where the words of 16 c. Radvilas e.g. "jestem Litwinem I Litwinem umierac będie" (sorry for the orthography; used in their letters many times from one Radvila to the other) means, what person said, not fairy tales like Kaziolek Matolek, because of 10 invented arguments why "Lithuanian" means "Pole".

Here are those:
Quote:
All the nobility in Poalnd are learning Latin language, some of them are also learning German. So, almost everyone in Poland speaks Latin perfectly. They are learning to this language very willingly and enthusiastic, because Latin is more suitable for subtle expressions, for definitions and concepts than Polish language, which is more limited and numb.
Girolamo Lippomano, 1575 in the report from Poland to Venice.
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girolamo_Lippomano

This diplomat came to the Kingdom of Poland during the rule of István Báthory or Stephanus Bathorelis.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Báthory



It is known from historical sources, that he never learned Polish and was talking in the state with everyone in Latin. The same, as Jogaila never learned Polish - the fact, known from Dlugossius (historian, who issued everything exclusively only in Latin language and nothing - in Polish).
http://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ioannes_Dlugossius

According to the logic of various Katsumas, Polish Kingdom before the end of the 16th century was not a "Polish-Slav" state.

I am puzzled, should this ruler from Transylvania be called Hungarian or Roman, based only on his language used, but probably in this special case, there will be tens of arguments, why language is not important, but must be important in the GDL.

Talking about this King, I remembered one more Hungarian - Eperjesz, who came to Lithuania from Eastern Prussia and built two castles in Lithuania. Should in be called "German heritage in Lithuania" (because of the country these nobles came) or "Hungarian heritage of Lithuania" (because of his Nationality)? How do You think? Also, that castle later was sold about 20 times. Firstly to German from Prussia, then to Poles, to Russians, to Portuguese owners and so on. What heritage is this castle? "European Union heritage in Lithuania"???
But wait, in 1925 it was sold to the U.S.A. Lithuanian Petraitis so it must be also "American heritage in Lithuania" or at least "Common American-Lithuanian heritage"?

A. S. Radvila in his mid. 17 c. memoirs about his relative. Quotation:
Quote:
[In 1636] He, [Jonušas Radvila] podkomorzy/pakamaris of the GDL, his wild blood of youth warming with the wine, more and more his hate souring, openly declared his war on Poles: " The Lithuanian Nation can not tolerate no more so many offences made to her. The day will come, when Poles will be thrown not through the doors, but all thrown through the windows!"
http://lt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonušas_Radvila
http://lt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alberta...slovas_Radvila

Radvila is clearly distinguishes himself from Poles, presents his identity (actually, quite anti-Polish, angry rethorics, but You, of course, count this guy as Pole, lol ).

Merely 20 years later: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_of_Kėdainiai

P.S. plus ratio quam vis, problem with these facts:
Czartoryski - Rurikids from Western Ukraine, who, AFTER adopting Catholicism in the mid. 16th century (prior to that were Orthodoxes, where all Lithuanians were baptized and according to the Union of Horodlo, only Catholics get coat of arms and the rights to fulfill the highest offices of the State), created legendary part of their origin and genealogy, to strengthen their presence among the Catholic nobles. Later some of the members came to Lithuania, but mostly were living in Poland. Almost no connection to Lithuania, sorry.
Tiškevičiai. 36 surnames in the telephone book of Vilnius. But somehow Tyszkiewicz, who emigrated from South Bielorussia to Poland a hundred years ago are more important than these.
By the way, noble family of Ukrainian-Belorussian origin from Kiiv; initially Orthodoxes, than, from the 17th century - Uniates; inhabited the Eastern and Southern part of the GDL; first members settled in Lithuania in the late 16th century.

Yes, for history-lamers and polonocentrists these are of course, new things.

In the late 19th century Tiškevičiai of Lithuania were fluent in Lithuanian, smuggling Lithuanian books and illegal press during the ban on Lithuanian language, opened first Lithuanian language classes, in the first half of the 20th (before the war), were fighting against Poles for the Independence of Lithuania, they themselves issued books in Lithuanian, were patriots of Lithuania. But I must ignore these and look at some Bielorussia Tyszkiewicz or those, who emigrated from Bielorussia to Poland or those, who were living in Poland from whatever century. Yesss!

Again, I am not interested in talks, that "palaces in Vitebsk are Lithuanian", just because in Lithuania too there were some branches of Tiškevičiai and for me it looks stupid how people use as arguments, why Lithuanian culture should also belong to Poland, that in Warszawa live some Tyszkiewicz (Polish or Belarussian ones).
Palaces in Vitebsk are Belorussian, palaces in Palanga are Lithuanian culture, only greedy Poles can't understand such an easy thing.

And about Katsuma-Bielorussian. I don't know why he feels shame of being Bielorussian. Ask him. I only want to point out, that he just uses typical arguments like other Bielorussians use too.
But here is the answer to that pseudo-history:
http://www.laborunion.lt/memo/module...ntpage&artid=8

BTW, Polish minister looks like intelligent man, good specialist and is one of not many Polish Lithuanian politicians I like and could vote for.
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Old April 26th, 2013, 12:43 AM   #918
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^
I hope that someone will reply to this bs.

Btw, "Tiškevičiai. 36 surnames in the telephone book of Vilnius." Are you really so stupid to believe that all those people are related with Tyszkiewicz noble family?

In Poland there are 3036 people with the surname Tyszkiewicz: http://www.moikrewni.pl/mapa/kompletny/tyszkiewicz.html. So what?
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Old April 26th, 2013, 02:11 AM   #919
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No RS_UK-PL, I am not so stupid as You to believe that some Czartoryska from Poland is somehow related to Lithuania just because of her surname and the fact, that 250 years ago couple of Czartoryski (Ukrainian family) lived in the GDL.

36 surnames counting owners of the flats with the home telephones. Actual number of Tiškevičius (Tiškevičius, Tiškevičienė, Tiškevičiūtė, Tiškievič, Tyškievič) people in Vilnius would be somewhere around 200-300 people (counting people with family members and other, who have cell phones, not home phones). Of course, these are no one and not related to Tiškevičiai, according to the angry Polish chauvinists as You and I somehow must be interested in the number of Tiškevičiai in Poland.
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Old April 26th, 2013, 01:51 PM   #920
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
^
I hope that someone will reply to this bs........
I think Konstantinas must be a Polish chauvinist or Russian agent that is trying to ridicule Lithuanians by talking nonsenses and offending people.
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