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Old April 26th, 2013, 02:36 PM   #921
Depeched
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God, when it will end. Why we can't regard Both Nation Republic heritage as common and stop stupid war which not ends from interwar.
The past is not same as nowdays. Thinking also. Maybe Polish-Lithuanian state was a prime example of cooperation between nations and now after nationalist, romantic period, we still can't break free from the nationalist thinking. In this way of thinking we are destroying the main idea of Polish-Lithuanian state.

We are so close together in history that even afraid to admit it.
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Last edited by Depeched; April 26th, 2013 at 02:48 PM.
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Old April 26th, 2013, 02:38 PM   #922
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plus ratio quam vis View Post
I think Konstantinas must be a Polish chauvinist or Russian agent that is trying to ridicule Lithuanians by talking nonsenses and offending people.
Taking into attention the fact that there are no Russians who stand for nonsence that this or that part of East Prussia (not even existing country) belongs to them and trying to eat the calf in the cow's belly, I suppose you may exclude that point.
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Old April 26th, 2013, 04:46 PM   #923
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plus ratio quam vis View Post
I think Konstantinas must be a Polish chauvinist or Russian agent that is trying to ridicule Lithuanians by talking nonsenses and offending people.
what you say here is not ridiculous. our real enemies have been trying to divide and conquer us from our natural allies and friends for centuries to weaken us. Lithuanians are our friends, we once shared a home, now we are respectful neighbours. I met Lithuanians in Greece who did not sound at all like this guy. Very nice people who know their country's history, our shared history etc
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Old April 26th, 2013, 09:43 PM   #924
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KonstantinasŠirvydas View Post
It is high time to quote "Poles" magnates of the GDL Radvilas and diplomat from Florence, who was visiting Poland in the 16th century.

(...)
Quote:
Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
I hope that someone will reply to this bs.
If you think that's bull$hit, I'd encourage you to get engaged a bit more now and reply yourself...

Anyway, he (KonstantinasŠirvydas) may have some valid points in relation to Poland's history, I don't know. He appears to know it much better than I do the Lithuanian equivalent, and makes use of that with psychopathic attention to detail, in part. those circumstances against Poles & Poland. But the main thing is that he rarely replies directly to some uncomfortable arguments and keeps diverting the topic from points presented on the last few pages, which resembles a Soviet-style technique "And you are lynching Negroes". That hasn't lead us anywhere in terms of the notion that the Lithuanian national identity has evolved over centuries, as a result of which the identity of a person considering themselves a Lithuanian in 14th century wasn't the same as a Lithuanian from 19th century, and - certainly - a contemporary Lithuanian.

So, I'd suggest to let him enjoy the victory achieved here, as he seems to desperately need that level of emotional compensation, while coming back in the evening from university to a lonely apartment.

Oh, and my alter ego ("Belarusian lost guy") wishes all of you good luck and a great weekend.
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Old April 26th, 2013, 11:05 PM   #925
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Katsuma, in 14 cent. Lithuania/GDL (speaking particularly about northern part of GDL - present day Lithuania) was a pagan state and christianisation of LT was just a political trick/move. Vytautas the Great (and afaik Jogaila) confirmed who, what is Lithuanians/Samogitians; Jan Dlugosz* also concluded many important facts about us, so it is not difficult to understand that in 14 cent. (also like in 12-13 cent.) lithuanian identity or perception of lithuanians by foreigners was based on different - polytheistic - religion. In opposite way, ruthenians (see Chronicles) were christians and mainly separated themselves from northern neighbours. Plus, language argument, linguistics (i.e names etc.). So sorry, but when we are talking about early stage of GDL existence, I don't understand where (or why?) you do not see any kind of similarities...Even now no one even considers about pagan part of GDL (core/axe of GDL) and contemporary Lithuania. Yes, mainly later, some (NB!) nobles accepted different culture (actually, only partly, relatively), but that's all. "Differences" (several times explained here) arose only in 19/20 century and only amongst the nobles. And not all nobles faced with self-identification problem, because many of them though in the same way as Basanavičius did. Difference between 14 cent. and contemporary Lithuania are that: formally, we are christians; and we are living in 21 cent.;D Many things - traditions (which still remains more associated with pagan "features"), folk stuff, oral culture, language, live-style (sedentary; stubbornness, inner-conservative-traditonalism of society), names, surnames (roots) did not change. You can check genetic data if you have an interest German/Teutonic sources would be more appropriate defining the identity of lithuanian because of stronger connections....So it gives some background to define lithuanian particularly when we are talking about 14 century and when we are making comparision with "modern" understanding.

-----
Again, i copy-paste...:

Vytautas writes to Emperor Sigismund in 1420 (Codex epistolaris Vitoldi. Pars I, Nr.861)
...in terra Samaytarum, (...) que eciam est et semper fuit unum et idem cum terra Lythwaniae, nam unum ydeoma et uni homines. - Samogitia which is and always was one with Lithuania, because the same language and the same people.
Sed quod terra Samaytarum est terra inferior ad terram Lythwanie, ideo Szomoyth vocatur, quod in lythwanico terra inferior interpretatur. Samoyte vero Lythwaniam appelant Auxstote, quod est terra superior respectu terre Samaytarum. Because Samogitia lies lower than Lithuania it's called Žemaite which in Lthuanian means lowland. Samogitians call Lithuania Aukštaite which means highland because higher land than Samogitia.
Jogaila to the papal legate in 1421 (Lites ac Res gestae inter Polonos Ordinemque Cruciferorum. tomus tertius. Posnaniae, 1856)
"Samogitia and Sudovia (...) are an important part of the Lithuanian Principality and belong to the principality;
...
The inhabitants of this land speak Lithuanian. And they do not have any other language than Lithuanian.
...
Samogitia, that is, in Lithuanian - Lithuania lower."

Žemaičiai or Samogitians + Aukštaičiai (Highlanders) = Lithuanians ( XIII cent., till present day). Before GDL spread towards ruthenian lands, GERMAN/TEUTONIC chronicles wrote, for instance:
1. 1283, Peter von Dusburg, Chronicon terrae Prussiae:

In Lithuanian:
„1283 viešpaties metais, kai nuo karų su prūsų gentimis pradžios prabėgo jau 53 metai ir visos šios žemės giminės jau buvo nukariautos ir išvaikytos, žodžiu, kai čia nebeliko nė vieno, kuris nebūtų nuolankiai paklusęs šventajai Romos bažnyčiai, Teutonų ordino broliai šitaip pradėjo karą su ta galinga, kietasprande ir kariauti pratusia tauta, kuri gyveno Prūsijos žemės kaimynystėje, anapus Nemuno, Lietuvos žemėje.“

Polish Google Translation:

"Lord 1283, kiedywojna zpruskiegoplemieniaspędził53 lati wszystkieplemiona ziemizostał jużpokonany irozproszone, słowo, któretutajnie ma nikogokto by niepokorneposłuszeństwoŚwiętego Kościoła Rzymskiego, zakonubraciTak rozpoczęławojnę zsilny, upartyi walczyćprzyzwyczajony doludzi, którzy żyliw Prusach, gruntyw sąsiedztwie, po drugiej stronie Niemna, na Litwie, na ziemi. "

Mindaugas, the first King of Lithunia. From letters/Pope Buls (in latin):

Mindowe, dei gratia rex Lettowiae

Grand Duke Treniota (XIII century). From popes latters:
Trinota, filius regis Lethowinorum

Later, Grand Duke Gediminas :

Gedeminne, letwinorum et multorum ruthenorum rex. 1322

Gedeminne Dei gratia Letphanorum Ruthenorumque rex princeps et dux Semigallie

From popes letters (ex Avignon): Excellenti et magnifico viro Gedeminne, letwinorum et multorum ruthenoum regi illustri…

NB: letwinorum <…> et multorum ruthenorum rex. Pay attention on "et" (eng. AND);

Vytautas the Great, XV cent.:
1422: Nos Alexander alias Witoldus eadem < Dei > gracia, magnus dux Lithwanie terrarumque Russie etc

Witowdus Dei gratia dux Lithuaniae dominus Trocensis, Luszensis;

Also, Jogaila later, in the end of XIV cent and in XV cent. after unsuccessful baptism, confirmed that lithuanians are New Christions (like Jogaila was);
Vytautas did the same.
Both made a separation and clearly distinguished lithuanians from ruthenians. Only later Lithuania became a common term/name of the state (GDL) nevertheless the fact that mostly religion/confession was the main criterion. Btw, in some cases a Pole (in lithuanian - Lenkas) was synonym to...Catholic.

Summing-up all historical sources, lithuanian means a person, who is from northern lands, who was a pagan; he is speaking a different language than Polish and Ruthenian (they were quite simmilar; slavic lang.). Acknowledging that lithuanian language is absolutely different and it doesn't change since XIV**, that pagan tradition survived/remained for a long time and even know majority of lithuanian traditions (ie. Christmas) have many pre-christian attributes, emphasising on the fact that lithuanian territory-land was well described by teutonic order/ruthenians/byzantine, plus knowing that ruthenians were always described and treated differently, taking into account all aspects of tradition, oral culture, myths and genetics, only a blind man can not to see common similarities between old lithuanian and present-day. Even there are no conversation about this issue...
By the way, you can smell a strong linguistic/ethnic element in our identity as it was in the XX cent., after 1918. Due to XIX cent. ideology, language/history/ethnicity were the main factors re-establishingthe society. It turns out that society understood those issues

* For instance, Jan Dlugosz: "The Yotvingian people reside in the North, bordering with Mazovia, Rus and Lithuania; has a language greatly similar to the language of Prussians and Lithuanians, and understandable to them. The tribes are wild and warlike, so hungry for glory and renown that a dozen of them fought with a hundred enemies encouraged only by the hope and knowledge that, after their death, their compatriots would honour them with songs of their heroic deeds. This character led to the demise of the Yotvingians, as small groups were defeated by more numerous units and virtually all were killed because of their inability to flee from such unequal battles.”
** Check, for instance, prayer text from 1503. And thousands of other text+ scholar works.

Last edited by Prosp; April 27th, 2013 at 02:27 AM.
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Old April 27th, 2013, 01:07 AM   #926
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Recent hysteria and insults, made personally against an opponent instead of arguments, stupid accusations prove, that Polish nationalists have nothing more to say to the historical facts and quotations presented.
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Old April 28th, 2013, 12:22 AM   #927
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Views from minor Lithuania and Lithuanian seaside folk music

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>>> OLD LITHUANIA




Last edited by Depeched; April 28th, 2013 at 12:41 AM.
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Old April 29th, 2013, 02:21 AM   #928
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Sułowo/Schulen, Poland - is a village in the administrative district of Gmina Bisztynek, within Bartoszyce County, Warmian-Masurian Voivodeship

Church of the Exaltation of the Holy Cross (1380-1400)

Author: Ludwig Schneider


Author: Ludwig Schneider

Manor

http://meteor-turystyka.pl/dworekromanowski,sulowo.html


Author: Mieczysław Kalski


Author: Mieczysław Kalski


Autor: Mieczysław Kalski


Author: Mieczysław Kalski


Author: Mieczysław Kalski

http://mojemazury.pl/
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Ca...an_Voivodeship
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Old April 29th, 2013, 11:50 PM   #929
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Very good news. Kaliningrad d. now is in Google street view:

Georgenburg/Mayovka castle
Old baltic name Jurbarkas



https://maps.google.com/?ll=54.66052...,0,-21.93&z=16
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Last edited by Depeched; April 29th, 2013 at 11:57 PM.
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Old May 2nd, 2013, 12:55 AM   #930
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Old cemetery in Agluonėnai/Aglohnen.Lithuania
Village name origin came from old-prussian word "agla" which means rain.


http://www.panoramio.com/photo/49531505
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Old May 2nd, 2013, 01:27 AM   #931
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Ясное/Kaukehmen. K. D
In Lithuanian Kaukiemis
Town name origin comes from Old-Prussian and Lithuanian word Kaukas (which means Spirit or Devil and kiemas, which means courtyard, yard

Until XVIII c. in town and area lived only Lithuanians
In 1847 - 47,6% Lithuanians

Pre-war views


wiki


wiki

Now


http://www.panoramio.com/photo/43774529


http://www.panoramio.com/photo/43774419


http://www.panoramio.com/photo/46940074


http://www.panoramio.com/photo/29450565


http://www.panoramio.com/photo/81894207


http://www.panoramio.com/photo/36426630


http://www.panoramio.com/photo/71757617


http://www.panoramio.com/photo/71757678


http://www.panoramio.com/photo/36426438


http://www.panoramio.com/photo/81894203


http://www.panoramio.com/photo/33249127

View of centre via google street view:
https://maps.google.lt/?ll=55.175357...5.32,,0,-22.29
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Old May 2nd, 2013, 01:32 AM   #932
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Those wooden burial markers in Depeched posted photo are so-callled Krikštai. Unique "artefact" or phenomena in Lithuania seaside/western samogitia and former East prussia territories. The earliest data on Krikštai is from XVI century. Krikštai in different shapes were put at the foot of the grave. It was believed that this construction would help for deceased to stand up when the time will come or for protection of burial place. According to ethnologists, the roots of Krikštai come from pagan traditions although some kind of similar burial market versions can be found in Switzerland/ Germanic tradition states.
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Old May 3rd, 2013, 01:22 AM   #933
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Kaliszki/Kallishchken/Flockau, Poland

is a village in the administrative district of Gmina Biała Piska, within Pisz County, Warmian-Masurian Voivodeship.

Manor (built in 1830)

author: Mieczysław Kalski

Before renovation in 2008

http://www.dworkaliszki.pl/index.html

Current state

http://www.mojekonferencje.pl/

Entrance

http://www.dworkaliszki.pl/index.html

At night

http://www.dworkaliszki.pl/index.html


author: Mieczysław Kalski

Park

http://www.dworkaliszki.pl/index.html
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Old May 3rd, 2013, 09:12 AM   #934
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Beautiful restoration.
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“In keeping silent about evil, in burying it so deep within us that no sign of it appears on the surface, we are implanting it, and it will rise up a thousand fold in the future. When we neither punish nor reproach evildoers we are thereby ripping the foundations of justice from beneath new generations.”

“The meaning of earthly existence lies not, as we have grown used to thinking, in prospering but in the development of the soul.”
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"We are more closely connected to the invisible than to the visible"

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Old May 3rd, 2013, 09:14 AM   #935
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Those scenes from Ясное/Kaukehmen are a picture of desolation. It is always 1945
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“In keeping silent about evil, in burying it so deep within us that no sign of it appears on the surface, we are implanting it, and it will rise up a thousand fold in the future. When we neither punish nor reproach evildoers we are thereby ripping the foundations of justice from beneath new generations.”

“The meaning of earthly existence lies not, as we have grown used to thinking, in prospering but in the development of the soul.”
Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

"We are more closely connected to the invisible than to the visible"

-Novalis
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Old May 3rd, 2013, 09:22 AM   #936
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Some views of Kaliningrad region






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Old May 3rd, 2013, 09:26 AM   #937
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Some views of the Kaliningrad region







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Old May 3rd, 2013, 09:14 PM   #938
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Quote:
Originally Posted by veresk View Post
Some views of the Kaliningrad region
Beautiful. I like it. Is that building the former german seat of Government District in Gusiev( former Gumbinnen/Gąbin )? Am I right?
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Old May 3rd, 2013, 11:15 PM   #939
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Catholic Baroque Church in Bisztynek/Bischofstein, Warmia (on the right, coat of arms of bishop Krzysztof Andrzej Jan Szembek from 1739)


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Old May 3rd, 2013, 11:17 PM   #940
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del

Last edited by RS_UK-PL; May 3rd, 2013 at 11:19 PM. Reason: too many beers
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