Former East Prussia/ Ostpreußen/ Rytų Prūsija/ Prusy Wschodnie/ Восточная Пруссия. Places & heritage.

[JValjean]

Very nice and interesting images!
I’ll travel once to Lithuania and the whole Baltics for sure!

[Depeched]

Examples of village houses

[ja.centy]

Originally Posted by JValjean

I guess those Poles here never heard anything about Gerhart Hauptmann, Arthur Schopenhauer, Max Born etc.

Schopenhauer? Is that the philosopher, who claimed his ancestors were Polish nobles?



Oh, sorry. I think I've mistaken him with Nietzsche.

As for Max Born, it seems that he was of Jewish descent, wasn't he?

Anyway, I believe some of you may be misinformed, because from what I've googled, there is, for example, a Max Born Square in Wrocław alright (Google Maps, Wikipedia).

Originally Posted by JValjean

Don’t you think dear Polish patriots that if East Prussia wouldn’t have been in its character a German land in 1918 it had rested a part of Germany?

Well, East Prussia certainly hadn't been an ethnic German land, but undoubtedly acquired much of Germanic character during the Teutonic and then Prussian rule.

Similarily, the Vilnius/Wilno Region hadn't been an ethnic Polish land, but became so starting from 17-18th c. As for Western Ukraine and the lands around Lviv/Lwów, their ethnic Polish roots (Lendians tribe) can be considered with more certainty, as opposed to Vilnius. Those lands were therefore set to be part of Poland after 1918.

Originally Posted by whatever...

Some of you guys are genuinely mental. You've managed to turn a perfectly innocent and interesting thread into another "Poland strong!!!" pissfest for no reason whatsoever...

It's called 'snowball effect', from one comment to another, you know yourself...



But isn't it entertaining for you, no?

Originally Posted by whatever...

Doesn't make any sense. Why would we even be searching for something which we have never lost.

Oh really?

As I said before, the elites of GDL, which was a multi-culti state with Ruthenian majority, had chosen to polonise on their own, as they considered Polish language & culture as more prestigeous.

Until 19th c. Lithuanian had been mainly a verbal language of the peasantry in lovely Samogitian woods and swamps.

Originally Posted by whatever...

Does every picture of Poland have to be with rainbows and children laughing and flowers blooming and all that...?

I don't care about the quality of pictures. If the foreigners don't attempt to touch our Holy Poland, everything will be fine, comprende?

[Depeched]

Someone, please erase this all offtopic.

[ja.centy]

Oh no. Let the voice of the public be heard, as censorship may not be the best idea for resolving this kind of controversial topic.

[JValjean]

Originally Posted by ja.centy

As for Max Born, it seems that he was of Jewish descent, wasn't he?

Yes he was and what's your prurpose by asking this? Many brilliant Germans were of "jewish descent"

Originally Posted by ja.centy

Well, East Prussia certainly hadn't been an ethnic German land, but undoubtedly acquired Germanic character during the Teutonic and then Prussian rule.

You mix up German and Germanic
The idea, the leitmotiv of Prussia wasn't beeing a Germanic kingdom. That the name came from a baltic folk was clear to everyone.

Prussia was multi-ethnic - and yes - a quite tolerant country for its time. That's why tens of thousands of French protestants settled in Prussia, also in East-Prussia. Austrians, Dutch and Scots immigrated to Prussia and all became loyal and very often patriotic Prussian citizens, in East Prussia together with Lithuanians in the North and Masurians in the South.

A famous Prussian of French descent was Theodor_Fontane:

a German novelist and poet, regarded by many as the most important 19th-century German-language realist writer. (wikipedia)

Or the De Maizière family:

Several family members have had and still have important roles in German politics and business. (wikipedia)

[Puritan]

Originally Posted by Karasek

No. My post was ironic... as far as I know there is no Gerhart Hauptmann street in Sklaska Poreba, no Max Born auditorium in Wroclaw and no Arthur Schopenhauer monument in Gdansk. But in Wroclaw I'm always impressed by the plagues who tell me that some Poles spend a night in the city.

Gerhart Hauptmann

- Museum "Dom Gerharta Hauptmanna" in Jelenia Góra
http://www.muzeum-dgh.pl/

- G.Hauptmann street - Słubice
- G. Hauptmann place - Szczawno Zdrój

Max Born
Commemorative plaque - Wrocław
Max Born square - Wrocław
Max Born bust - Wrocław University

Arthur Schopenhauer

A.Schopenhauer street - Gdańsk
A.Schopenhauer plaque - Gdańsk
A.Schopenhauer Park - Gdańsk
A. Schopenhauer bust - Gdańsk University

Streets, parks, schools, monuments named after Fahrenheit, T.Mann, Goethe, Schiller, Beethoven, Luter, Hacken, Adenauer etc.

definition of Ignorance for you

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignorance

[JValjean]

Baltic Tribes around 1200


Source: wikipedia


"Altpreußische Landschaften im 13. Jahrhundert" / Old-Prussian (Baltic Prussian) landscapes (regions) in the 13th century


Source:wikipedia

[Puritan]

Originally Posted by Karasek

No. My post was ironic... as far as I know there is no Gerhart Hauptmann street in Sklaska Poreba, no Max Born auditorium in Wroclaw and no Arthur Schopenhauer monument in Gdansk. But in Wroclaw I'm always impressed by the plagues who tell me that some Poles spend a night in the city.

Gerhart Hauptmann

- Museum "Dom Gerharta Hauptmanna" in Jelenia Góra
http://www.muzeum-dgh.pl/

- G.Hauptmann street - Słubice
- G. Hauptmann place - Szczawno Zdrój

Max Born
Commemorative plaque - Wrocław
Max Born square - Wrocław
Max Born bust - Wrocław University
Max Born annual symposium - Wrocław Univ.

Arthur Schopenhauer

A.Schopenhauer street - Gdańsk
A.Schopenhauer plaque - Gdańsk
A.Schopenhauer Park - Gdańsk
A. Schopenhauer bust - Gdańsk University
A. Schopenhauer tram
Streets, parks, schools, monuments named after Fahrenheit, Uphagen, T.Mann, Goethe, Schiller, Beethoven, Luter, Hacken, Adenauer etc.

definition of Ignorance for you

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignorance

[Barto_S]

Originally Posted by JValjean

Yes he was and what's your prurpose by asking this? Many brilliant Germans were of "jewish descent"

Prussia was multi-ethnic - and yes - a quite tolerant country for its time. That is why tens of thousands French protestants settled in Prussia, also in East-Prussia. Austrians, Dutch and Scots immigrated to Prussia and all became loyal and very often patriotic Prussian citizens, in East Prussia together with Lithuanians in the North and Masurians in the South.

Prussians were tolerant... Germanization of land and people of course wasn't obligatory.
Ehh, that's some embarrassing joke has nothing to do with the history of this country and its successors

[JValjean]

Oh man! Don't mix up Prussia in 17th, 18th and early 19th century with the politics of Bismarck’s Empire or the Nazi reign.

And nationalism was widespread all over Europe in the second half of the 19th and in the early 20th century.

here some information about Frederick the Great

Frederick generally supported religious toleration, including the retention of Jesuits as teachers in Silesia, Warmia, and the Netze District after their suppression by Pope Clement XIV…

He was interested in attracting a diversity of skills to his country, whether from Jesuit teachers, Huguenot citizens, or Jewish merchants and bankers, particularly from Spain…

Thus, he accepted countless Protestant weavers from Bohemia, who were fleeing from the devoutly Catholic rule of Maria Theresa. Frederick granted the weavers freedom from taxes and military service...

Frederick repeatedly emphasized that nationality and religion were of no concern to him... (wikipedia)

Here's an interesting BBC documentary
"Frederick the Great and the Enigma of Prussia"

[RS_UK-PL]

Originally Posted by JValjean

Oh man! Don't mix up Prussia in 17th, 18th and early 19th century with the politics of Bismarck’s Empire or the Nazi reign.

And nationalism was widespread all over Europe in the second half of the 19th and in the early 20th century.

here some information about Frederick the Great

And more:
"Following the partitions of Poland, the previous Germanisation attempts pursued by Frederick the Great in Silesia were naturally extended to encompass the newly gained Polish territories. The Prussian authorities started the policy of settling German speaking ethnic groups in these areas. Frederick the Great settled around 300,000 colonists in the eastern provinces of Prussia and aimed at a removal of the Polish nobility, which he treated with contempt and likened the 'slovenly Polish trash'."

[JValjean]

*del*

Sorry that I participated on this off-topic excess!

[RS_UK-PL]

Christian Ludwig von Kalckstein - sentenced to death in January 1672 and beheaded at Memel on 8 November 1672 during Frederick William's reign...

Before death, Christian wrote a letter to his son: "learn Polish, and secure yourselves in Poland for there is no place for us left in the now enslaved Prussia".

[Depeched]

Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL

Christian Ludwig von Kalckstein - sentenced to death in January 1672 and beheaded at Memel on 8 November 1672 during Frederick William's reign..."learn Polish, and secure yourselves in Poland for there is no place for us left in the now enslaved Prussia".

And what it mean?

[Depeched]

Partitions of Poland-Lithuania were just what were started after 1655.
After 1717 Poland-Lithuania became state protectorate, sattelite state by Russia.
Almost all ethnic Poland became part of other states, not Russia, just for miracle, where reign was absolutely smaller than in Russia occupied territories. And why to be angry for Germany or Austria, If we (Both Nations Republic) couldn't fix our state for noblemans democracy.

[RS_UK-PL]

Originally Posted by Depeched

And what it mean?

Christian Ludwig von Kalckstein was a Prussian count, Colonel, and politician, born in Preußisch Eylau/Bagrationovsk. He was owner of lands near Mühlhausen/Gvardeyskoye.

Christian was against "autonomy" of Duchy of Prussia/Ducal Prussia under Brandenburg rulers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_Prussia) and because of that he was sentenced to death. AFAIR, we were talking about Prussian tolerancy.

Map of Ducal Prussia:

[Urbanista1]

Originally Posted by JValjean

*del*

Sorry that I participated on this off-topic excess!

why is the truth uncomfortable? we have it instilled in our DNA what it means to be Polish, it's not easy, why do you think we have become so distrustful and why do moronic ultra right wing politicians like Kaczynski get even a 20%of votes...because we are tired of not being able to live in peace as Poles, being attacked every few generations and always having someone question whether our land is really ours, whether we have a culture. It's not easy on the psyche having a super rich and powerful neighbour although very peaceful now question if anything good Poland ever accomplished was really German in fact and that we are incapable of producing anything worthy, we know this is nonsense but a lot of these threads sound like this.

I have no problem admitting to the German or Lithuanian influence in our region and cultural contribution, I also have no problem with Germans or others living and thriving today in Poland, but I expect the same respect for Polish cultural achievements in Wilno (Vilnius), Lwow (Lviv).

I have met many good Germans and they knwo the history of this region very well, the impact of Bismarcks kulturkampf etc and its no big deal, it does not need to be a point of contention. Drang nach Osten and the Ostseidlung have been a force in German culture in the past and it affected this region greatly, but that's history, now it's different. Poles pushed east into Ruthenian lands, we accept that. German president Herzog asked Poland for forgiveness and I believe an earlier President said "we ask for forgiveness and we forgive." Recently Russian and Polish churches asked for forgiveness so people could move forward, Poland asked for forgiveness for Jedwadne etc etc. So in this climate why is it that in these forums there is backward revisionism or an inability to accept certain historic truths and get on with the picture show.

[ja.centy]

Originally Posted by JValjean

Yes he was and what's your prurpose by asking this? Many brilliant Germans were of "jewish descent"

Nothing, it just reminded me of the quote from Albert Einstein:
'If my theory of relativity is proven right the Germans will call me a German, the Swiss will call me a Swiss citizen, and the French will call me a great scientist.
If my theory is proven wrong the French will call me a Swiss, the Swiss will call me a German and the Germans will call me a Jew.'

As I understand, Max Born was successful.

Originally Posted by JValjean

You mix up German and Germanic

I used the term 'Germanic' on purpose, because I think there had been no German national identity until 19th c.

Originally Posted by Puritan

Gerhart Hauptmann

- Museum "Dom Gerharta Hauptmanna" in Jelenia Góra
http://www.muzeum-dgh.pl/

...

Originally Posted by Puritan

Gerhart Hauptmann

- Museum "Dom Gerharta Hauptmanna" in Jelenia Góra
http://www.muzeum-dgh.pl/

...

Spot the difference.

[Karasek]

Originally Posted by Puritan

Gerhart Hauptmann

- Museum "Dom Gerharta Hauptmanna" in Jelenia Góra
http://www.muzeum-dgh.pl/

- G.Hauptmann street - Słubice
- G. Hauptmann place - Szczawno Zdrój

Max Born
Commemorative plaque - Wrocław
Max Born square - Wrocław
Max Born bust - Wrocław University

Arthur Schopenhauer

A.Schopenhauer street - Gdańsk
A.Schopenhauer plaque - Gdańsk
A.Schopenhauer Park - Gdańsk
A. Schopenhauer bust - Gdańsk University

Streets, parks, schools, monuments named after Fahrenheit, T.Mann, Goethe, Schiller, Beethoven, Luter, Hacken, Adenauer etc.

definition of Ignorance for you

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignorance

Oh you are right, I forgot those little plagues and sidestreets. Like Ulica Artura Schopenhauera, this 50m long side street on the outskirts for one of the biggest sons of the city. Or the place in Szczawno Zdrój for the biggest son of the town, which isn't even recognizable as a place.
Sorry, but after this new and impressive monument for Boleslaw Chrobry in Wroclaw, which I love so much because it reminds me of the most kitschy and embarrassing monuments of the German Empire (and I thought these times were over), I expected something, you know, bigger. If a Pole spends one night in Wroclaw and gets a plaque, someone who spent his life there and actually did something for the city should get something more... at least a dead end in the city centre.