daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > World Forums > Architecture > European Classic Architecture and Landscapes

European Classic Architecture and Landscapes All related to historical buildings and landscapes of the old world.



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old February 18th, 2014, 08:12 AM   #1441
Mruczek
Warrior of Excel
 
Mruczek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Outside Blue Banana
Posts: 10,427
Likes (Received): 13454

Quote:
Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
New developments in Dobre Miasto/Guttstadt, Warmia
I'm afraid Dobre Miasto as a city fabric is lost. Over 3/4 of the Old Town has been rebuilt in 1960s - typical 3-floor buildings made of grey cement brick. Worse yet, now these buildings are being modernised unskilfully

Pics you've posted are presenting the remaining 1/4 of the Old Town, which is being filled with retroversionist buildings.

On the other hand, in Dobre Miasto there is collegiate church in excellent shape, couple of other monuments and most of fabric outside the Old Town survived in relatively good shape.
__________________
We shape our buildings; thereafter they shape us. Winston Churchill
Z archiwum Mruczka:
Buk Miłosław Szamotuły
Barcelona Budapeszt Grodno Kowno Madryt Moskwa Ukraina
Mruczek no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old February 18th, 2014, 10:45 AM   #1442
RS_UK-PL
Registered User
 
RS_UK-PL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: R-L1029
Posts: 2,301
Likes (Received): 3392

Quote:
Over 3/4 of the Old Town has been rebuilt in 1960s - typical 3-floor buildings made of grey cement brick




Quote:
there is collegiate church in excellent shape
Collegiate Church/Minor Basilica in Dobre Miasto/Guttstadt

Houses being rebuilt in Pisz/Johannisburg, Masuria (Daszyńskiego Square, 1960)




New developments in Pisz/Johannisburg, Masuria










"Wrota Mazur" Marina (under construction)




During World War II, Johannisburg was 70% destroyed by fighting and occupation by the Soviet Red Army. Little of pre-war Johannisburg survived the warfare aside from its Neo-Gothic town hall, but much of Pisz has been restored in recent decades. The town is a popular place to begin sailing on the Masurian lakes. Historical sites include the ruins of the Teutonic Knights' Johannisburg castle and the Church of St. John (below).



__________________

Rombi, bananenhassan, WB2010, mar04 liked this post

Last edited by RS_UK-PL; February 18th, 2014 at 02:52 PM.
RS_UK-PL no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 18th, 2014, 11:55 PM   #1443
Mruczek
Warrior of Excel
 
Mruczek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Outside Blue Banana
Posts: 10,427
Likes (Received): 13454

Quote:
Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
Houses being rebuilt in Pisz/Johannisburg, Masuria (Daszyńskiego Square, 1960)
That's what I love in 1950s architecture in Communist countries
__________________
We shape our buildings; thereafter they shape us. Winston Churchill
Z archiwum Mruczka:
Buk Miłosław Szamotuły
Barcelona Budapeszt Grodno Kowno Madryt Moskwa Ukraina
Mruczek no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 19th, 2014, 11:06 AM   #1444
RS_UK-PL
Registered User
 
RS_UK-PL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: R-L1029
Posts: 2,301
Likes (Received): 3392

Biskupiec/Bischofsburg, Warmia


Houses rebuilt between 1959 and 1961






Interior of a Church is modern due to severe damage during the war...




Biskupiec in the 1960s


Now


Bischofsburg was 50% destroyed during the East Prussian Offensive of the Red Army in the late days of World War II.
__________________

Rombi, WB2010, JValjean, mar04 liked this post

Last edited by RS_UK-PL; February 19th, 2014 at 11:53 AM.
RS_UK-PL no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 20th, 2014, 10:59 AM   #1445
RS_UK-PL
Registered User
 
RS_UK-PL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: R-L1029
Posts: 2,301
Likes (Received): 3392

Braniewo/Braunsberg, Warmia

Quote:
Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
I really hope that Baroque Town Hall and Stone House (below) will be faithfully reconstructed.
Actually, I've found this copper-plate engraving from 1830 and in my opinion, Poles should reconstruct about 5-6 buildings (all looked delicious) on that street, including Monk's Gate.


In the late 19th century, gate was demolished and 17-18th century houses that you see on the right were transformed into this sh...

Last edited by RS_UK-PL; April 14th, 2014 at 12:23 PM.
RS_UK-PL no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 20th, 2014, 01:35 PM   #1446
RS_UK-PL
Registered User
 
RS_UK-PL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: R-L1029
Posts: 2,301
Likes (Received): 3392

Rebuilt houses in Kwidzyn/Marienwerder, former Duchy of Prussia/Kingdom of Prussia




Planned second phase of the construction






Rebuilt houses in Pasłęk/Preußisch Holland, former Duchy of Prussia/Kingdom of Prussia

Last edited by RS_UK-PL; February 20th, 2014 at 03:10 PM.
RS_UK-PL no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 20th, 2014, 03:08 PM   #1447
RS_UK-PL
Registered User
 
RS_UK-PL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: R-L1029
Posts: 2,301
Likes (Received): 3392

Gorgeous reconstructions of Renaissance houses in Elbing/Elbląg, former Kingdom of Poland/Royal Prussia...

"Pod Lwem" Hotel (originally built in 1585) and "Elbląg" Hotel (1599)


New "Old" Town in Elbing/Elbląg


Elbląg in the 1970s...
From the left: St.Mary's Church reconstructed in the 1960s, Marketplace tower renovated shortly after WW2, St.Nicholas Cathedral reconstructed between 1945 and 1965










Houses rebuilt between 1969 and 1975 (also, we can see Church of the Holy Spirit reconstructed in the 1970s)


Church of the Holy Spirit (reconstruction works)


__________________

Batavier, Urbanista1, WB2010 liked this post

Last edited by RS_UK-PL; February 21st, 2014 at 04:00 PM.
RS_UK-PL no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 20th, 2014, 03:22 PM   #1448
Depeched
Registered User
 
Depeched's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Vilnius
Posts: 1,356
Likes (Received): 1090

I'don't understand Polish architecture taste, because among beautifully restored, reconstructed buildings there are under construction many very kitschy buildings.
__________________
>> MY PHOTO THREAD ABOUT LITHUANIA
>>MY PHOTOS FROM KLAIPĖDA (MEMEL)
>>> OLD LITHUANIA




JValjean liked this post
Depeched no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 20th, 2014, 03:48 PM   #1449
RS_UK-PL
Registered User
 
RS_UK-PL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: R-L1029
Posts: 2,301
Likes (Received): 3392

Personally, I wouldn't mind more buildings like the ones below (Elbląg), which were built in traditional styles, but of course are not reconstructions...

It's worth mentioning that until the beginning of the 19th century Elbląg had many valuable buildings (see below) with stylish facades from different eras - from Gothic to Baroque. You'll find a lot of enthusiastic descriptions of the architecture by travelers visiting Elbląg, who were comparing the city to Toruń, or even Gdańsk. Demolition of historical substance, which began in the early 19th century changed Elbląg's appearance. It was a time when the old, thriving port city became industrial hub, while most single-family houses were converted into rather tasteless tenement blocks (photo1, photo2, photo3, photo4, photo5, photo6). Definitely, I wouldn't reconstruct buildings based on the pre-war photos.

Ideally, reconstruction works should be undertaken according to the old drawings...


Elbląg Gymnasium


Rebuilt houses in Pasłęk are certainly better than what stood there before the war.

Last edited by RS_UK-PL; February 26th, 2014 at 06:33 PM.
RS_UK-PL no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 20th, 2014, 07:49 PM   #1450
Iluminat
Redsigert User
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 11,457
Likes (Received): 4532

Quote:
Originally Posted by Depeched View Post
I'don't understand Polish architecture taste, because among beautifully restored, reconstructed buildings there are under construction many very kitschy buildings.
Well it's quite normal in smaller cities/towns postmodernism from the '90 is still present there I wouldn't generalise to call it a "polish taste" though.
__________________

Rombi liked this post
Iluminat no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 21st, 2014, 12:36 PM   #1451
RS_UK-PL
Registered User
 
RS_UK-PL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: R-L1029
Posts: 2,301
Likes (Received): 3392

In addition to posts #952, #1025, #1208, #1304...

Mikołajki/Nikolaiken, Masuria












"Mikołajki" Hotel (more photos)




Mikołajki in 1958


New development in Krynica Morska/Kahlberg

Last edited by RS_UK-PL; February 21st, 2014 at 04:01 PM.
RS_UK-PL no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 21st, 2014, 01:38 PM   #1452
12m_P6
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Warszawa
Posts: 66
Likes (Received): 53

Quote:
Originally Posted by Depeched View Post
I'don't understand Polish architecture taste, because among beautifully restored, reconstructed buildings there are under construction many very kitschy buildings.
In these cases, kitsch comes from a misunderstanding of historical architecture. Unfortunately , "Gypsy" styling is still created when ordinary architects design for uninformed investors.
It results from not fully accurate exploration of an own style and nostalgia for a lost heritage that is not properly interpreted.
The number of such buildings is inversely proportional to the size of the city
In Lithuania I saw a lot less kitschy buildings in angry tones than in Poland.
But on the other hand ,in my opinion, the space of cities, suburbs and roadside in LT seems to be more gray and depressing than in Poland.
12m_P6 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 21st, 2014, 01:51 PM   #1453
Depeched
Registered User
 
Depeched's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Vilnius
Posts: 1,356
Likes (Received): 1090

Quote:
Originally Posted by 12m_P6 View Post
In these cases, kitsch comes from a misunderstanding of historical architecture. Unfortunately , "Gypsy" styling is still created when ordinary architects design for uninformed investors.
It results from not fully accurate exploration of an own style and nostalgia for a lost heritage that is not properly interpreted.
The number of such buildings is inversely proportional to the size of the city
In Lithuania I saw a lot less kitschy buildings in angry tones than in Poland.
But on the other hand ,in my opinion, the space of cities, suburbs and roadside in LT seems to be more gray and depressing than in Poland.
Question is about which cities you're taliking and when you have been in Lithuania.
__________________
>> MY PHOTO THREAD ABOUT LITHUANIA
>>MY PHOTOS FROM KLAIPĖDA (MEMEL)
>>> OLD LITHUANIA



Depeched no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 21st, 2014, 02:04 PM   #1454
12m_P6
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Warszawa
Posts: 66
Likes (Received): 53

Quote:
Originally Posted by Depeched View Post
Question is about which cities you're taliking and when you have been in Lithuania.
Generally speaking, the space in LT seems to be better organized than in PL, there is no urban chaos and like it is in PL. Buildings have subdued colors, there is so much chaotic billboards, is more modest. You can see more netting of communism, especially in the provinces, but new construction projects in the cities look more aesthetic and ascetic than in Poland.
I was in Marijampolė, Kaunas, Vilnius and in several villages. I visited your contry 3 or 4 times, last time on january 2013.
But perhaps this a topic for another thread.
__________________

JValjean, Depeched liked this post

Last edited by 12m_P6; February 21st, 2014 at 02:12 PM.
12m_P6 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 21st, 2014, 02:44 PM   #1455
Prosp
BANNED
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 437
Likes (Received): 348

Hm...Any historical reconstruction and redevelopment in Lithuania faces with very strict restrictions. Actually to redevelop or reconstruct a historical building in Lithuania for a private investor is very difficult, sometimes - not possible. Point is that a private investor/developer must work together with state's agencies which are responsible for cultural heritage, this means, they are forced to reconcile their project with certain agencies and experts. For instance, very famous present project - Sapiegų Rūmai/Sapieha Palace in Vilnius, even though the project doesn't look kitchy (people worked more than years developing it) attracts a lot of attention and criticism. Imho, "God is in the details"
Another example - if you want to reconstruct any building in the Old Town, first you must conduct an archeological research.
So it is expensive thing and not always it is a good way to work like that. Time consuming projects can easily be delayed, postponed. However, in terms of quality, it works fine, imho.

I like this project (Bokšto 6). It is in Vilnius Old town. reconstruction covers an inner yard territory. But it is very difficult to change, intervane into or to rechange some elements of the building, even though it was "fukced up" during soviet time.



Quote:
In Lithuania I saw a lot less kitschy buildings in angry tones than in Poland.
But on the other hand ,in my opinion, the space of cities, suburbs and roadside in LT seems to be more gray and depressing than in Poland.
Hm...Well, to be honest, Lithuania is very gray and depressive country I guess You haven not see other counties around the Baltic sea
Just I did not understand what You had in mind by saying "the space of cities, suburbs <...>" and "<...>but new construction projects in the cities look more aesthetic and ascetic than in Poland. "
It would be interesting to hear an opinion of other party.

Soviet era buildings (suburbs (sleeping districts?)) are the same like in Finland (actually, copy-paste), but at this moment majority of them simply lacking of renovation.
Contemporary archtecture of Lithuania is based on Lithuania architecture school with strong influence of Nordic style, therefore yep, it might look like more "aesthetic and ascetic". For instance, I noticed that in Poland, Your architecture is more similar to Dutch or Germans. Correct me if I wrong, because a have visited only a small part of Poland, so maybe my impressions are wrong.

Last edited by Prosp; February 21st, 2014 at 03:13 PM.
Prosp no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 21st, 2014, 04:17 PM   #1456
12m_P6
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Warszawa
Posts: 66
Likes (Received): 53

del
12m_P6 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 21st, 2014, 04:32 PM   #1457
12m_P6
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Warszawa
Posts: 66
Likes (Received): 53

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prosp View Post


Hm...Well, to be honest, Lithuania is very gray and depressive country I guess You haven not see other counties around the Baltic sea
Just I did not understand what You had in mind by saying "the space of cities, suburbs <...>" and "<...>but new construction projects in the cities look more aesthetic and ascetic than in Poland. "
It would be interesting to hear an opinion of other party.

Soviet era buildings (suburbs (sleeping districts?)) are the same like in Finland (actually, copy-paste), but at this moment majority of them simply lacking of renovation.
Contemporary archtecture of Lithuania is based on Lithuania architecture school with strong influence of Nordic style, therefore yep, it might look like more "aesthetic and ascetic". For instance, I noticed that in Poland, Your architecture is more similar to Dutch or Germans. Correct me if I wrong, because a have visited only a small part of Poland, so maybe my impressions are wrong.
This is exactly what I meant.
I have a feeling that this interesting discussion moves us from the story, but it is difficult not to continue.
In addition, ascetic form of "Nordic" largely eliminate what we call kitsch. Because kitsch is the super-saturation, reload, super-splendor in the wrong style.
"Boroque" splendour in the culture of the Nordic countries do not exist becouse of different reasons. Kitsch can be found around the world and has a lot of variety. In fact, there are few countries that are deprived of kitsch. The farther north you go there the less of kitsch
Lithuania is influenceded of Nordic style now and I really like it.
Concrete living blocks of soviet era may look modest, perhaps a bit poorer than in PL, but I am convinced that no one will paint them during the renovation with the bright colors and mismatched color combinations, what is taking place on many living suburbs in Poland.
Indeed, there is a similarity in Poland to german architecture, which even noticed my German friend (who coincidentally is not an architect).
This applies to both houses types - from the communist era (for example, in Warsaw) as well as modern.
Polish culture in general has very much in common with german, also in language, of which many Poles probably do not realize.
Many phrases, sayings, proverbs in Polish and German are the same and there is just in these two languages, etc. .. Europe is still a great cultural melting pot
Well, the Lithuanians and Poles have "sejmas" and "sejm", as one of souvenirs of their common history, but in modern Lithuanian archiecture there are more northern, than "middle -european" influences, I think.
10 years ago I was in Riga and Tallin, then looked Latvia at the saddest from the Baltic countries.
Riga you can not deny the charm, but there were more gray than in Lithuania.
__________________

JValjean liked this post
12m_P6 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 21st, 2014, 04:53 PM   #1458
Prosp
BANNED
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 437
Likes (Received): 348

Quote:
Originally Posted by 12m_P6 View Post
This is exactly what I meant.
I have a feeling that this interesting discussion moves us from the story, but it is difficult not to continue.
In addition, ascetic form of "Nordic" largely eliminate what we call kitsch. Because kitsch is the super-saturation, reload, super-splendor in the wrong style.
"Boroque" splendour in the culture of the Nordic countries do not exist becouse of different reasons. Kitsch can be found around the world and has a lot of variety. In fact, there are few countries that are deprived of kitsch. The farther north you go there the less of kitsch
Lithuania is influenceded of Nordic style now and I really like it.
Concrete living blocks of soviet era may look modest, perhaps a bit poorer than in PL, but I am convinced that no one will paint them during the renovation with the bright colors and mismatched color combinations, what is taking place on many living suburbs in Poland.
Indeed, there is a similarity in Poland to german architecture, which even noticed my German friend (who coincidentally is not an architect).
This applies to both houses types - from the communist era (for example, in Warsaw) as well as modern.
Polish culture in general has very much in common with german, also in language, of which many Poles probably do not realize.
Many phrases, sayings, proverbs in Polish and German are the same and there is just in these two languages, etc. .. Europe is still a great cultural melting pot
Well, the Lithuanians and Poles have "sejmas" and "sejm", as one of souvenirs of their common history, but in modern Lithuanian archiecture there are more northern, than "middle -european" influences, I think.
10 years ago I was in Riga and Tallin, then looked Latvia at the saddest from the Baltic countries.
Riga you can not deny the charm, but there were more gray than in Lithuania.
If i am not misleading, but afaik according to all those general plans (law), "renovation-colour" in LT is a "sand colour", something like this or this:
[IMG]http://foto.************/inkelti/20070122/DSC_7563.JPG[/IMG]

Problem that "white coloured" buildings usually get dirty...graffiti tags etc. A huge problem in Lithuania. Therefore it is impossible to paint the house whatever you want colour. Even a private house, if it stand near commie-blocks.

By the way, the word Seimas/Sejm has an interesting history and common dot(s):
Latvian "Saeima"
Quote:
The word "Saeima" meaning "a gathering, a meeting, a council" was constructed by the Young Latvian Juris Alunāns. It stems from the archaic Latvian word eima meaning "to go" (derived from the PIE *ei "to go" and also a cognate with the Ancient Greek eimi, Gaulish eimu among others) [2] Cognates with Polish sejm and Lithuanian seimas as they all have common ancestor - the parliament of Commonwealth of Both Nations.
Northern architecture influence dates back to interwar, later - Soviet era (particularly Finland), and now...Many Danish architects are participating in competitions. On the other hand, looking from historical point of view, our modern architecture concept was based on the same canons. Interesting that some traces root somewhere in XVIII century.
Plus, fkcing climate here...

Talking about kitch-architecture, 1990, wild-capitalism, DIY architecture. Lithuania is a small country so it was easier to control "trends" (a la Santa Barbara summer-houses )

Last edited by Prosp; February 21st, 2014 at 05:00 PM.
Prosp no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 21st, 2014, 04:55 PM   #1459
Mruczek
Warrior of Excel
 
Mruczek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Outside Blue Banana
Posts: 10,427
Likes (Received): 13454

Quote:
Originally Posted by Depeched View Post
Question is about which cities you're taliking and when you have been in Lithuania.
Precisely. Define "kitschy" regarding retroversionist buildings in East Prussia.
__________________
We shape our buildings; thereafter they shape us. Winston Churchill
Z archiwum Mruczka:
Buk Miłosław Szamotuły
Barcelona Budapeszt Grodno Kowno Madryt Moskwa Ukraina
Mruczek no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 21st, 2014, 05:19 PM   #1460
12m_P6
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Warszawa
Posts: 66
Likes (Received): 53

(...)"Just I did not understand what You had in mind by saying "the space of cities, suburbs <...>" and "<...>but new construction projects in the cities look more aesthetic and ascetic than in Poland. "
It would be interesting to hear an opinion of other party."

I put this thesis , after a short walk through the small Marijampole .
The center of the town was renovated : the sidewalks, houses, streets , etc.
It looks aesthetically , because the houses are painted in bright , not flashy colors. Urban space is not " screaming ",there is no ugly billboards , random forms of homes.
Outside the center the space is gray and poorer than in Poland, but more modestly , which I like.
It's a good starting point for creating a compact space in future.
In Poland this space is often full of chaos.
I prefer a boring gray than a chaos.
So speaking of new projects I had in mind , that revitalizated city centers in LT are more aesthetic and ascetic than in many cases in Poland ,
where houses must necessarily be multicolored with pseudo-hisotical street furniture etc.
So back to the beginning - When I compare rebuild cenetes of masurian or warmain cities with, for example Marijampole ,Marijampole is in the artistic expression better in my opinion.
But if we start talking about investments in large cities , I generally don't have any objections to modern trends in contemporary Polish architecture .
__________________

Depeched liked this post
12m_P6 no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
königsberg, polska

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 03:40 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

Hosted by Blacksun, dedicated to this site too!
Forum server management by DaiTengu